Indian Army Armored Vehicles

[sgarg]

My challenge to p2prada - lay out the production processes and machines used to build the tank.

I shall prove to him conclusively that private sector has the capability.

 

[Ray]

Bharat Forge built artillery and Tata built artillery without orders from Army. Food for thought.

You have no idea how much local industry has progressed. You need to go visit modern Indian factories.

You will be surprised by the progress made by civilian industry.

The fact is that the government sector is seriously behind private industry's capability.

We are talking manufacturing here, not design. Let DRDO design a tank and give to Tata for manufacturing.

Who will pay for the tank - obviously government will pay.

If HFV can build a tank, sure a Tata can too.

If you ask the private company to pay for the tank; I would reverse the question to you - who pays the price of the tank when HVF builds it? Is HVF paying for the tank?

Private defence contractors like the Tatas, L&T and Bharat Forge are involved in locally upgrading M46 guns provided by the Army to 155mm/45 cal in addition to developing their own 155mm/52 howitzers in collaboration with overseas OEMs. Some are also collaborating with the DRDO's Armament Research and Development Establishment in Pune to design a 155 mm/52-caliber Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) with a 50-km strike range by 2016.

Costs per gun and for tanks?

 

[Ray]

My challenge to p2prada - lay out the production processes and machines used to build the tank.

I shall prove to him conclusively that private sector has the capability.

You apparently did not see the post and link I appended.

It gives a whole vista.

 

[Ray]

The economics for building an equipment does not change just because it is built by government sector.

When the factory is inefficient, the whole cycle of production and improvement suffers.

It does.

Private companies don't run on love and fresh air.

They run on profits - huge profits!

Govt agencies are tweaked to deliver on as low a profit as feasible.

Reliance sells gas as cheap as ONGC?

 

[Guest]

MoD has already approved new T-90s for NE and Ladakh.

Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through T-90 purchase | Business Standard News

It talks of proposals and not approvals- and the way MoD functioned has changed a bit from the time that news was published-

That's BS. The T-90 weighs 48 tons. And what is your take on what we should be using there? The lighter 67 tonnes Arjun Mk2?

Yes T-90S would weigh 48-50tons here I talked about "Upgraded version"-

You shouldn't make sweeping statements without knowing facts first. 150 T-72s are already being moved to Ladakh. The new tank contract will be for Sikkim.

It is advisable to read carefully before quoting and making statements- I wrote "would be ideal choice as it has been for a long time"- That would've answered your previous question about what tank should've been used-

Light tanks and APCs have no stopping power.

I specifically said "FICVs"-

There is no Arjun Mk3.

It is there- If you don't see fancy models or 3D drawings on Internet doesn't mean Its not there-

 

[bengalraider]

The bmp 1 was designed under a different design philosophy than its successors, it was primarily designed to be a cross between a light tank and an apc(note the 73mm low recoil main gun) , while its successors are primarily apc's. I think that there may be a plan to handover these upgraded units to the BSF for use against paki light assets (a bmp1 main gun is more than adequate to take out a m113) and bunkers,this way the BSF can bring some extra firepower until the big guns arrive. The newer IFV units will be required to move with the armored tip of any strike force, the older bmp units can still be very useful for defence and holding territory.
This arrangement can be used to fill in the gaps until we have adequate numbers of modern IFV's.

 

[p2prada]

I am mesmerized by your statements. You said 85% of the tank is built in India. This means the vendors, machines, and manpower is in place. Then you say it take 3 years to assemble the materials. Can you explain why?

Because that's how long it takes to build a tank from scratch.

 

[sgarg]

It does.

Private companies don't run on love and fresh air.

They run on profits - huge profits!

Govt agencies are tweaked to deliver on as low a profit as feasible.

Reliance sells gas as cheap as ONGC?

Nobody runs on love and fresh air. The assumption that public sector builds cheaper equipment is simply false.

The profit on the balance-sheet does not tell the story.

The story is told by headlines "India largest importer of weapons in the world".

Why it happens? Due to inefficiency and lack of innovation of public sector.

ONGC does make good profits. You cannot compare ONGC with Reliance which operates deep water fields.

Your statements are rhetorical and not in tune with modern India's capability and aspirations. You seem to live in history.

I have no need to see an American tank plant video. I understand and I have enough knowledge of production processes.

Your assertions are false. The fact is Tata can make a tank. However Tata will not make the tank for free - nobody would.

 

[p2prada]

A range of facilities feed into HVF's T-90S production line. Two OFB factories in Kanpur build the gun and breach block. Another in Jabalpur builds the recoil system, while another one in Tiruchiralapplli fabricates the 12.7 millimetre air defence gun. The sophisticated thermal imaging sights and gunner's sights come from OFB's Opto-Electronics Factory in Dehradun. The gun stabilizer, which allows the tank to fire accurately while moving, comes from Bharat Electronics Ltd.

Within Avadi, HVF builds major components of the T-90S: the hull, turret, transmission, gearbox and the running gear. Another OFB facility next door, Engine Factory, Avadi, builds the tank's 1000 HP engine. Thousands of minor parts are outsourced to local industry: electrical items, cables, starter generator, instrument panel, hardware and rubber components. According to OFB's Jain, the T-90S has been 70% indigenised; this will increase to 80% next year.

Bringing together all this parts takes 30 months. Then HVF assembles them into a tank.

[sarcasm]Oh, but sgarg is saying tanks are like his Lego toys, they can be built in 6 minutes. How can that be? Oh, the world![/sarcasm]

According to OFB's Jain, the T-90S has been 70% indigenised; this will increase to 80% next year.

Anyway, this news is from 2011. Indigenization is 85% now.

 

[sgarg]

Because that's how long it takes to build a tank from scratch.

Any reasons why it takes so much time? Or is it just a function of government sector efficiency.

As Mr Ray suggests, the public sector runs on love and fresh air. Since profit is not a motive, the parts can be ordered well in advance.

In USSR, fighters were built and inducted ever before the testing programs finished. If you imitate the Soviet model of government owned factories, then why you don't imitate their other qualities.

 

[p2prada]

t talks of proposals and not approvals- and the way MoD functioned has changed a bit from the time that news was published-

Don't worry about it. Only T-90 can operates in that region anyway.

Yes T-90S would weigh 48-50tons here I talked about "Upgraded version"-

The upgraded version is 49.5 tonnes.

I specifically said "FICVs"-

There is no difference. APC is part of the FICV.

It is there- If you don't see fancy models or 3D drawings on Internet doesn't mean Its not there-

You can believe what you want.

 

[sgarg]

[sarcasm]Oh, but sgarg is saying tanks are like his Lego toys, they can be built in 6 minutes. How can that be? Oh, the world![/sarcasm]

Anyway, this news is from 2011. Indigenization is 85% now.

A country that is not efficient with weapons production is NOT FIT for war.
What will soldier do when the country cannot equip the soldier.
Your famous 40 day war is just imagination. A war can last multiple years and consume far more resources than you assume.
Ultimately it boils down to the effectiveness of your industrial capability.

 

[p2prada]

Any reasons why it takes so much time? Or is it just a function of government sector efficiency.

It has nothing to do with govt. That's how long it takes to build a tank, regardless of who's building it.

As Mr Ray suggests, the public sector runs on love and fresh air. Since profit is not a motive, the parts can be ordered well in advance.

CAG will be on their behinds. The director can be arrested for corruption.

In USSR, fighters were built and inducted ever before the testing programs finished. If you imitate the Soviet model of government owned factories, then why you don't imitate their other qualities.

The Soviet Union, and today Russia, both have very long testing periods before anything is inducted.

What you are talking about is concurrency that is being practiced for the first time in a large program, the F-35. The Soviet Union nor Russia have practiced this model, and I doubt the Russians ever will.

Please come back once you have some levels of knowledge about the military.

 

[p2prada]

@Kunal,

I have operated on both sides of the LAC as it pertains to us.

Without getting into details, on the western side, there are adequate tank runs of operational import.

On the Eastern side, it may not be in the classical tank manoeuvring space.

Now, if we are to operate in TAR, what chance has the Light Armour when confronted with the Chinese MBT or heavier tanks?

And if they come in, with their MBTs/heavier tanks than their Light tanks, what chance has any Light Tank that we deploy have?

What tanks are there in the Eastern Sector?

And what chance has Chinese Light tanks in the Eastern or Western Sectors?

The earliest known FMBT specification was aimed at creating a light weight MBT. A 40 ton tank that has more protection and firepower than T-90 and Arjun. Although we do not know the current progress on that front, there were rumors that the weight has been changed to 45-50 tons instead.

We do not know the current specifications of the FMBT, but if we look at the Russian Obj 195, the Russians developed a tank much lighter than Arjun while delivering many times more firepower and protection. So, those advances can be introduced into the FMBT for a much lighter tank. We could get an idea about the weight achieved using modern technology once Armata is declassified. The Armata is aimed to be a lighter cousin of the Obj 195.

 

[p2prada]

@Singh @Ray

Can you please tell me why Kunal deleted my post?

 

[p2prada]

@Hari Sud

Arjun is going to get air conditioner too.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Go according to rules of this forum you will go well, Anything which does not follow the rules goes in thar anyways, This is no place to whine around, If have issues PM mod or report ..

 

[pmaitra]

@Singh @Ray

Can you please tell me why Kunal deleted my post?

Can you please read the reason given for post deletion, instead of asking something that is already answered?

p2prada
Regular Member

This message has been deleted by Kunal Biswas.

ReasonRead the first post of the first page also the rest of the thread .. ..

Few more things:

No.

.......................

Comments like this add no value. You have provided absolutely no counter argument to a sincere question. I would have deleted this post as well.

[sarcasm]Oh, but sgarg is saying tanks are like his Lego toys, they can be built in 6 minutes. How can that be? Oh, the world![/sarcasm]

This comment is absolutely unnecessary baiting. I would have deleted this one as well. I have not seen Kunal make comments like this ever.

Bottom-line: If you posts get repeatedly deleted, try to revise the way you write your comments. Frankly, I find it repeatedly offensive.

 

[pmaitra]

No pulling numbers out of the clouds. If you present a number, present a source. You don't get to decide who proved whom wrong. Let the readers decide.

Absolutely ZERO tolerance for public criticism of moderation. [@SajeevJino, @p2prada, @Defcon 1, please take note. Use PM feature. I cannot emphasize this enough.]

 

[pmaitra]

I am not using the PM feature for this particular post since you have taken my name in public. You say that P2prada should present a source to back up his claims.

Now I request you to kindly go back to our PM conversation a few months back where I complained that one particular member has been making claims without backing them up and he must be stopped from doing so. This was your reply.



As you can see, this message is at odds with what you have said currently. If you think that forum should provide free speech without the need for evidence, I respect your decision as a member of staff. Thats why I never repeated the same complain again. But now you are saying that sources are required to back up claims. Kindly clarify the forum policy on this issue.

How is my comment at odds with what I have said? There are posts in this thread that have no source, and they have not been deleted.

If another member posts numbers without sources, nothing can be done. However, if a member posts numbers without sources, and then based on that premise, goes on to publicly criticize moderation, and claims he proven someone wrong, then it is a sign of malicious intent. I recommend you avoid that.

Moreover, this thread is about troubles with T-90. After repeated reminders, people don't seem to get that.