Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[bhramos]

India to acquire at least 60 Airbus C-295 transport aircraft: Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa

NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to begin contract negotiations for acquiring 56 Airbus C-295 transport aircraft as replacements for its ageing Avro HS-748 aircraft.

According to the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa, due attention is being paid to all assets of IAF, fighters and transporters included, and that "contract negotiations for 56 C-295 aircraft to replace the ageing Avro fleet are likely to commence shortly".

Separately, official sou ..

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

 

[Bahamut]

The main reason of disagree is "FADEC" system. India demanded for FADEC to ensure safety but Russian denied

FADEC leads to less safe engine but it is more efficient

Advantages[edit]

• Better fuel efficiency
• Automatic engine protection against out-of-tolerance operations
• Safer as the multiple channel FADEC computer provides redundancy in case of failure
• Care-free engine handling, with guaranteed thrust settings
• Ability to use single engine type for wide thrust requirements by just reprogramming the FADECs
• Provides semi-automatic engine starting
• Better systems integration with engine and aircraft systems
• Can provide engine long-term health monitoring and diagnostics
• Number of external and internal parameters used in the control processes increases by one order of magnitude
• Reduces the number of parameters to be monitored by flight crews
• Due to the high number of parameters monitored, the FADEC makes possible "Fault Tolerant Systems" (where a system can operate within required reliability and safety limitation with certain fault configurations)
• Saves weight

Disadvantages[edit]

• Full authority digital engine controls have no form of manual override available, placing full authority over the operating parameters of the engine in the hands of the computer.
  • If a total FADEC failure occurs, the engine fails.
  • Upon total FADEC failure, pilots have no manual controls for engine restart, throttle, or other functions.
  • Single point of failure risk can be mitigated with redundant FADECs (assuming that the failure is a random hardware failure and not the result of a design or manufacturing error, which may cause identical failures in all identical redundant components).
• High system complexity compared to hydromechanical, analogue or manual control systems
• High system development and validation effort due to the complexity
• Whereas in crisis (for example, imminent terrain contact), a non-Fadec engine can produce significantly more than its rated thrust, a FADEC engine will always operate within its limits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FADEC
If the last point is correct then I do not know why IAF is asking for FADEC engine .More power in mountain will be good

 

[TPFscopes]

FADEC leads to less safe engine but it is more efficient

Advantages[edit]

• Better fuel efficiency
• Automatic engine protection against out-of-tolerance operations
• Safer as the multiple channel FADEC computer provides redundancy in case of failure
• Care-free engine handling, with guaranteed thrust settings
• Ability to use single engine type for wide thrust requirements by just reprogramming the FADECs
• Provides semi-automatic engine starting
• Better systems integration with engine and aircraft systems
• Can provide engine long-term health monitoring and diagnostics
• Number of external and internal parameters used in the control processes increases by one order of magnitude
• Reduces the number of parameters to be monitored by flight crews
• Due to the high number of parameters monitored, the FADEC makes possible "Fault Tolerant Systems" (where a system can operate within required reliability and safety limitation with certain fault configurations)
• Saves weight

Disadvantages[edit]

• Full authority digital engine controls have no form of manual override available, placing full authority over the operating parameters of the engine in the hands of the computer.
  • If a total FADEC failure occurs, the engine fails.
  • Upon total FADEC failure, pilots have no manual controls for engine restart, throttle, or other functions.
  • Single point of failure risk can be mitigated with redundant FADECs (assuming that the failure is a random hardware failure and not the result of a design or manufacturing error, which may cause identical failures in all identical redundant components).
• High system complexity compared to hydromechanical, analogue or manual control systems
• High system development and validation effort due to the complexity
• Whereas in crisis (for example, imminent terrain contact), a non-Fadec engine can produce significantly more than its rated thrust, a FADEC engine will always operate within its limits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FADEC
If the last point is correct then I do not know why IAF is asking for FADEC engine .More power in mountain will be good

Your answer is available on the same page >> Wikipedia
You know very well that most of the accidents are occurred due to human error. And this is the system which will minimise the case. During pregnancy flight checks , you have to check very less hardware as compared with non-FADEC.

And nothings is perfect on this world everyone has their individual requirements. And FADEC suits IAF.

Function

True full authority digital engine controls have no form of manual override available, placing full authority over the operating parameters of the engine in the hands of the computer. If a total FADEC failure occurs, the engine fails. If the engine is controlled digitally and electronically but allows for manual override, it is considered solely an EEC or ECU. An EEC, though a component of a FADEC, is not by itself FADEC. When standing alone, the EEC makes all of the decisions until the pilot wishes to intervene.

FADEC works by receiving multiple input variables of the current flight condition including air density, throttle lever position, engine temperatures, engine pressures, and many other parameters. The inputs are received by the EEC and analyzed up to 70 times per second. Engine operating parameters such as fuel flow, stator vane position, bleed valve position, and others are computed from this data and applied as appropriate. FADEC also controls engine starting and restarting. The FADEC's basic purpose is to provide optimum engine efficiency for a given flight condition.

FADEC not only provides for efficient engine operation, it also allows the manufacturer to program engine limitations and receive engine health and maintenance reports. For example, to avoid exceeding a certain engine temperature, the FADEC can be programmed to automatically take the necessary measures without pilot intervention.

Safety
With the operation of the engines so heavily relying on automation, safety is a great concern. Redundancy is provided in the form of two or more, separate identical digital channels. Each channel may provide all engine functions without restriction. FADEC also monitors a variety of data coming from the engine subsystems and related aircraft systems, providing for fault tolerant engine control.

Engine control problems simultaneously causing loss of thrust on up to three engines have been cited as causal in the crash of an Airbus A400M aircraft at Seville Spain on 9 May 2015. Airbus Chief Strategy Officer Marwan Lahoud confirmed on 29 May that incorrectly installed engine control software caused the fatal crash. "There are no structural defects [with the aircraft], but we have a serious quality problem in the final assembly."

Applications
A typical civilian transport aircraft flight may illustrate the function of a FADEC. The flight crew first enters flight data such as wind conditions, runway length, or cruise altitude, into the flight management system (FMS). The FMS uses this data to calculate power settings for different phases of the flight. At takeoff, the flight crew advances the throttle to a predetermined setting, or opts for an auto-throttle takeoff if available. The FADECs now apply the calculated takeoff thrust setting by sending an electronic signal to the engines; there is no direct linkage to open fuel flow. This procedure can be repeated for any other phase of flight.

In flight, small changes in operation are constantly made to maintain efficiency. Maximum thrust is available for emergency situations if the throttle is advanced to full, but limitations can’t be exceeded; the flight crew has no means of manually overriding the FADEC.

 

[Bahamut]

Your answer is available on the same page >> Wikipedia
You know very well that most of the accidents are occurred due to human error. And this is the system which will minimise the case. During pregnancy flight checks , you have to check very less hardware as compared with non-FADEC.

And nothings is perfect on this world everyone has their individual requirements. And FADEC suits IAF.

Function

True full authority digital engine controls have no form of manual override available, placing full authority over the operating parameters of the engine in the hands of the computer. If a total FADEC failure occurs, the engine fails. If the engine is controlled digitally and electronically but allows for manual override, it is considered solely an EEC or ECU. An EEC, though a component of a FADEC, is not by itself FADEC. When standing alone, the EEC makes all of the decisions until the pilot wishes to intervene.

FADEC works by receiving multiple input variables of the current flight condition including air density, throttle lever position, engine temperatures, engine pressures, and many other parameters. The inputs are received by the EEC and analyzed up to 70 times per second. Engine operating parameters such as fuel flow, stator vane position, bleed valve position, and others are computed from this data and applied as appropriate. FADEC also controls engine starting and restarting. The FADEC's basic purpose is to provide optimum engine efficiency for a given flight condition.

FADEC not only provides for efficient engine operation, it also allows the manufacturer to program engine limitations and receive engine health and maintenance reports. For example, to avoid exceeding a certain engine temperature, the FADEC can be programmed to automatically take the necessary measures without pilot intervention.

Safety
With the operation of the engines so heavily relying on automation, safety is a great concern. Redundancy is provided in the form of two or more, separate identical digital channels. Each channel may provide all engine functions without restriction. FADEC also monitors a variety of data coming from the engine subsystems and related aircraft systems, providing for fault tolerant engine control.

Engine control problems simultaneously causing loss of thrust on up to three engines have been cited as causal in the crash of an Airbus A400M aircraft at Seville Spain on 9 May 2015. Airbus Chief Strategy Officer Marwan Lahoud confirmed on 29 May that incorrectly installed engine control software caused the fatal crash. "There are no structural defects [with the aircraft], but we have a serious quality problem in the final assembly."

Applications
A typical civilian transport aircraft flight may illustrate the function of a FADEC. The flight crew first enters flight data such as wind conditions, runway length, or cruise altitude, into the flight management system (FMS). The FMS uses this data to calculate power settings for different phases of the flight. At takeoff, the flight crew advances the throttle to a predetermined setting, or opts for an auto-throttle takeoff if available. The FADECs now apply the calculated takeoff thrust setting by sending an electronic signal to the engines; there is no direct linkage to open fuel flow. This procedure can be repeated for any other phase of flight.

In flight, small changes in operation are constantly made to maintain efficiency. Maximum thrust is available for emergency situations if the throttle is advanced to full, but limitations can’t be exceeded; the flight crew has no means of manually overriding the FADEC.

I know that but some times like in hot weather or thin air you require a little kick or a small boast of power, that cannot be done with FADEC .Also in FADEC the software needs to be foolproof , it cannot fail as there is no back up.Any way if IAF wanted a FADEC engine they could have look for another supplier (only GE CF6)or HAL could make it , canceling the entire program should not have been canceled.Only Japanese Kawasaki C 2 is only one that can match MTA.

 

[TPFscopes]

I know that but some times like in hot weather or thin air you require a little kick or a small boast of power, that cannot be done with FADEC .Also in FADEC the software needs to be foolproof , it cannot fail as there is no back up.Any way if IAF wanted a FADEC engine they could have look for another supplier (only GE CF6)or HAL could make it , canceling the entire program should not have been canceled.Only Japanese Kawasaki C 2 is only one that can match MTA.

This project is presented by Russian UAC and intended to be a bilateral only.
There is no option for direct involvement of third-party in the Project.
There are few rumours that India demanded to integrate some Israeli avionics. But no firm plans are found

 

[Bahamut]

This project is presented by Russian UAC and intended to be a bilateral only.
There is no option for direct involvement of third-party in the Project.
There are few rumours that India demanded to integrate some Israeli avionics. But no firm plans are found

We can modify our variant but the problem is the cost , we would have to pay close to 2$billion dollar and in a project with budget of 600$million ,there is no option.The Russian have started a development of new family of engine to GE for their next gen heavy lifter and wide body aircraft but it will take about 5 year and we have to pay close to 2$ billion for it .As for avionics , I would like know what kind and who would pay and final integrate the it .The point is IAF wanted a FADEC engine with project whose cost is just 600$ million.To create a new engine you require close to 1 Billion$ and no had the money ,I say we try and arrange for Kawasaki C2 local production , let An 32 not be another Mig 21 (a flying coffin).We must have replacement in production by 2020.

 

[TPFscopes]

We can modify our variant but the problem is the cost , we would have to pay close to 2$billion dollar and in a project with budget of 600$million ,there is no option.The Russian have started a development of new family of engine to GE for their next gen heavy lifter and wide body aircraft but it will take about 5 year and we have to pay close to 2$ billion for it .As for avionics , I would like know what kind and who would pay and final integrate the it .The point is IAF wanted a FADEC engine with project whose cost is just 600$ million.To create a new engine you require close to 1 Billion$ and no had the money ,I say we try and arrange for Kawasaki C2 local production , let An 32 not be another Mig 21 (a flying coffin).We must have replacement in production by 2020.

Government's will-power plays a major role in these types of projects.
Due to the weak vision of UPA government , many projects are scrapped (like HF-24 MARUT) from which some are saved by another Government (NAL SARAS, Tejas etc)
Hope for NAL SARAS to be a success story which may lead to build bigger Aircrafts Indigenously.
I'm not pretty sure but I got a rough news from one of my source at DRDO that there is a project going on for bigger turbofan Engine.

 

[Bahamut]

overnment's will-power plays a major role in these types of projects.

In this case money is the problem

many projects are scrapped (like HF-24 MARUT)

HF 24 was out because of under powered engine not because of government

Hope for NAL SARAS to be a success story which may lead to build bigger Aircrafts Indigenously

I think NAL Saras is bad design and RTA is better design but I believe RTA is canceled .I do not have a confident in present SARAS design and hope the change the placement of to more like this

I'm not pretty sure but I got a rough news from one of my source at DRDO that there is a project going on for bigger turbofan Engine.

First let get Kaveri engine right ,then they can thing of a newer family of turbofan engine
better let make a turboprop first that can be used in RTA or our basic trainer program

 

[rrrajesh.yadav]

NEW DELHI: State-run aerospace behemothHindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has finalised a major plan to manufacture nearly 1,000 military helicopters and over a hundred planes, in tune with government's focus on speeding up defence indigenisation.

HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju said the company has also ramped up its infrastructure to deliver 123Tejas Light Combat Aircraft to the India Air Force with an annual delivery of 16 jets from 2018-19 onwards.

In the next five years, the HAL will also carry out major upgrade of almost the entire fighter fleet of IAF including Su-30MKI, Jaguars and Mirage jets, making them more lethal, he said.


"Next five years will be really vibrant time for HAL. We are upgrading almost every major platform including Sukhois, Jaguars, Mirage and Hawks.

"We are going to build around 1,000 helicopters including Kamov 226, LCH (Light Combat Helicopter) ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) in the next 10 years," Raju told PTI in an interview.
The HAL and Russian defence firms have finalised a Joint Venture agreement for production of light weight multi-role 'Kamov 226T' helicopters in India which will replace the aging fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers.

The inter-government agreement for the deal was signed during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Russia in December, 2015.


On manufacture of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the HAL chief said its production will be doubled from current eight aircraft per year to 16 from 2018-19. Tejas, the smallest and lightest of its class, was inducted into the IAF in July last year.

The HAL has an order from IAF to supply 40 Tejas. The government has also approved the procurement of 83 Tejas Mk-1A taking the total number of the aircraft to be manufactured by HAL to 123.

Raju said besides enhancing infrastructure for redouble manufacturing of Tejas, HAL has also outsourced manufacture of some major components including wings and fuselage of the jet to private industry which will further speed up rate of production.

Calling Sukhoi upgrade a major programme, he said the fleet will be equipped with missiles, avionics and sensors. Both India and Russia have been in negotiation for upgrade of the Su-30MKI to a near fifth-generation level.

Earlier this month, India and Russia signed two key agreements for long-term maintenance and technical support for the Su-30MKI fleet.

India is one of the largest importers of arms and military platforms globally. The government has been focusing significantly on promoting defence indigenisation by taking a slew of reform initiatives including liberalising FDI in defence sector.

Reflecting government's focus in the area, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley earlier this month had said India was not happy with the label of world's largest importer of weapons system and had asked the industry to take advantage of government's policy to promote defence production.

On manufacture of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, the HAL chief said its production will be doubled from current eight aircraft per year to 16 from 2018-19. Tejas, the smallest and lightest of its class, was inducted into the IAF in July last year.

The HAL has an order from IAF to supply 40 Tejas. The government has also approved the procurement of 83 Tejas Mk-1A taking the total number of the aircraft to be manufactured by HAL to 123.

Raju said besides enhancing infrastructure for redouble manufacturing of Tejas, HAL has also outsourced manufacture of some major components including wings and fuselage of the jet to private industry which will further speed up rate of production.

Calling Sukhoi upgrade a major programme, he said the fleet will be equipped with missiles, avionics and sensors. Both India and Russia have been in negotiation for upgrade of the Su-30MKI to a near fifth-generation level.

Earlier this month, India and Russia signed two key agreements for long-term maintenance and technical support for the Su-30MKI fleet.

India is one of the largest importers of arms and military platforms globally. The government has been focusing significantly on promoting defence indigenisation by taking a slew of reform initiatives including liberalising FDI in defence sector.

Reflecting government's focus in the area, Defence Minister Arun Jaitley earlier this month had said India was not happy with the label of world's largest importer of weapons system and had asked the industry to take advantage of government's policy to promote defence production.

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ETTWMain

 

[square]

indian air force looking to aquire malaysian mig29,.!¡!!

 

[Bahamut]

View attachment 14702


indian air force looking to aquire malaysian mig29,.!¡!!

Mig 29 are in production and IAF get new Mig 29 for cheap plus Mig 29 of Malaysia will be upgraded

 

[TPFscopes]

HF 24 was out because of under powered engine not because of government

Replacement with uprated Engineis possible in HF-24 and reviews of the pilots are overwhelming.
All more than money there is priority matters. UPA gives priority to scams via imports.

I think NAL Saras is bad design and RTA is better design but I believe RTA is canceled .I do not have a confident in present SARAS design and hope the change the placement of to more like this

RTA-70 Project was also cancelled by the same UPA government after about 6 years of research by mentioning that there was no requirement of such planes in India.

RTA-70 was proposed to be a turboprop Aircraft but after 3 years of research, TURBOFAN were considered for use.

First let get Kaveri engine right ,then they can thing of a newer family of turbofan engine
better let make a turboprop first that can be used in RTA or our basic trainer program

Yes, agreed for KAVERI but I thought there is an urgent need of more players that can help in building better Aircraft and Engine

 

[Bahamut]

RTA-70 Project was also cancelled by the same UPA government after about 6 years of research by mentioning that there was no requirement of such planes in India.

RTA-70 was proposed to be a turboprop Aircraft but after 3 years of research, TURBOFAN were considered for use.

^ years is to early to cancel it takes a decade to make a commercial plane
RTA 70 has better market prospective and it made more sense to revive it but if we are not revive it then at least get production of SSJ 100 and IL 114 that we have been given as SARAS type aircraft do not have much market

Replacement with uprated Engineis possible in HF-24 and reviews of the pilots are overwhelming.
All more than money there is priority matters. UPA gives priority to scams via imports

Dude HF 24 was build in 1967 there was no UPA. As bad as they are they are not responsible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut#Termination_and_criticisms

 

[TPFscopes]

^ years is to early to cancel it takes a decade to make a commercial plane
RTA 70 has better market prospective and it made more sense to revive it but if we are not revive it then at least get production of SSJ 100 and IL 114 that we have been given as SARAS type aircraft do not have much market

NAL SARAS was almost ready that's why it on upper priority to revive.
Moreover for RTA-70 , it may be delayed due to a similar Project HAL/UAC IL-214.
Hopefully RTA-70 will be revived as MTA is grounded.

Dude HF 24 was build in 1967 there was no UPA. As bad as they are they are not responsible
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut#Termination_and_criticisms

1st - at that time the government was lead by Congress or you can say UPA.
2nd- as I said, for thurst issue uprated Engine had to to considered and I want to concrete it as MARUT MK2 was to be powered by Rolls Royce turbomeca adour

All the problems raised in HF-24 are curable but Project needs financial support.
Every newborn machine specially first , needs support

UPA also proposed a bill in parliament to scrap Tejas Project but thankfully BJP came into power than Vajpayee Ji revived the Project.

NOTE : I do not support any political party but I'm seriously against scams of all types

 

[Bahamut]

Moreover for RTA-70 , it may be delayed due to a similar Project HAL/UAC IL-214.
Hopefully RTA-70 will be revived as MTA is grounded.

RTA 70 is civilian aircraft and MTA is military aircraft, they are difficult

1st - at that time the government was lead by Congress or you can say UPA.
2nd- as I said, for thurst issue uprated Engine had to to considered and I want to concrete it as MARUT MK2 was to be powered by Rolls Royce turbomeca adour

All the problems raised in HF-24 are curable but Project needs financial support.
Every newborn machine specially first , needs support

Read the article , yes government reject RR but only because of the stupid believe that GTRE alone could modify the engine.Also Kurt Tank did not communicate with any one be it IAF or Government about the jet

UPA also proposed a bill in parliament to scrap Tejas Project but thankfully BJP came into power than Vajpayee Ji revived the Project.

Vajpayee ji was a good leader , along with trusting Pak ,the nuclear test was a stupid show of power because of with both SARAS and Tejas got delayed by atleast 10 years.

 

[TPFscopes]

Vajpayee ji was a good leader , along with trusting Pak ,the nuclear test was a stupid show of power because of with both SARAS and Tejas got delayed by atleast 10 years.

You are the first guy who mentioned POKHARAN NUCLEAR TEST as a stupid idea.

 

[Bahamut]

You are the first guy who mentioned POKHARAN NUCLEAR TEST as a stupid idea.

In terms of our aviation industry as both Tejas and SARAS were being tested in US lab when as we had no infrastructure .After the test we lost access to lab and data and we had build a lot of infra which took more money and time.Had it not been for test Tejas would have gearing for its first upgrade

In 1998, Lockheed Martin's involvement was terminated due to a US embargo in response to India's second nuclear tests in May of that year.[31][32]

 

[TPFscopes]

In terms of our aviation industry as both Tejas and SARAS were being tested in US lab when as we had no infrastructure .After the test we lost access to lab and data and we had build a lot of infra which took more money and time.Had it not been for test Tejas would have gearing for its first upgrade

As I said and most of the person in the world says that everything has its PROS & CONS.
POKHARAN TEST have more pros and very less cons.
In previous years US treated us as slave whereas now we stand with US at same stage.

 

[Adioz]

Plan to raise air squadron strength in IAF to 42 within a year: Marshal
The Indian Air Force has a depleted strength of 33 Air Squadrons but it is likely to be expanded to 42 after a year or so, according to Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Training Command, Air Marshal SRK Nair.

He told reporters here that the depletion had been there for a while but now efforts were on to increase it to 42 air squadrons.

The IAF’s decline in squadron strength was criticised by a Parliament standing Committee recently. A report has said that India required 42 air squadrons to counter a two-front collusive threat. The Parliamentary panel has found that the gap between retirement of fighter aircraft after completion of their total shelf life far exceeded the rate of replacements.

IAF has started inducting Sukhoi-30s and the squadron is operational from Thanjavur airbase.

Meanwhile, efforts are on to induct Apache helicopters from United States and the process would begin from July 2019 and end by March 2020. Apache has been in service since 1984 in United States and the version that India is purchasing is the latest Block-III configuration that the US first got in 2011.

A total of 22 choppers are being bought for $ 1.4 billion.
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250723

WT (actual) F?
42 squadrons within 1 year? WTH is the reporter smoking? Even weed does not make someone that high.

 

[IndianHawk]

WT (actual) F?
42 squadrons within 1 year? WTH is the reporter smoking? Even weed does not make someone that high.

They will prepare a plan in one full year as to how to proceed imho.