Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Scarface]

Mig 21 is the most produced fighter in the world and the one that kicked off US frontline fighters in the Vietnam war. US were so shocked after seeing its performance that they started the LMF project after this war specifically to counter Mig 21. This later resulted in F16. How is buying Mig 21s not a good decision? At the time it was bought, it was the most successful fighter in the world.
Navy bought Mig29k because it didn't have a choice. If you are so enlightened to point out navy's fault here, kindly suggest what they should have done instead.



All MKIs have been manufactured post soviet era. All their equipment is of post soviet era. The airframe was modified post soviet era. Understand the distinction.


MKI is one of the most manoeuvrable fighters of the world, carries 8 tonnes of payload, has 12 hardpoints, decent avionics, huge range. Instead of looking at the age of the airframe, why don't you look at the performance?
And what if F16 has 16 year old airframe. The F16 block 60 is way different from F16A, same for all fighters. They are not soviet era.

U.S Aircraft losses in Vietnam were mostly due to SAMs,MiG 21s did not in fact kick,even the F-4 Phantoms which are renouned for their poor dogfight performance initially achieved a 2:1 kill ratio against MiG 21s and the Israeli F-4s dominated Mig 21s in the 6 day war

The reason for the LWF program to exist was not some threat to air superiority from MiG21,it was the high cost of implementing F-X program aircraft (F-15 Eagle) across the board in the USAF.

The USNs Top Gun program had proven enough to counter MiG 21s,as they achieved 40:7 kill death ratios in the last days of Vietnam war.

And no,when we bought the MiG 21, it was neither the most produced nor was it the most successful aircraft,we were one of the earliest customers of the aircraft,now I'm not saying there's anything wrong about buying something early,I'm just putting this out there because you claimed MiG21s combat record(not very impressive) and high production we bought them , which wasn't true.

Alternatives to MiG29K ?
VTOL F-35Bs
In fact Indian Navy had floated an RFI for new aircraft and had received F-35B information in response,nothing came out of it.


There is very little distinction to be mad, the,Su-30MKI was quite literally Su-27Pu(which was based on the two seater trainer Su-27UB) with canards,which were added later by the way.It was a soviet era airframe modified and upgraded to Indian needs,I don't know about the F-16 blk60 but neither airframes have had changes radical enough to be considered new airframes

Su-30MKI is a soviet era upgraded fighter

It would be a post-soviet era aircraft if the airframe hadn't been a derivative of the Su-27 or had a radical change like Legacy to Super Hornet.

It's a soviet era design,you can argue semantics and split hairs all you want but this is the reality.

Now I haven't questioned the Su-30MKI capabilities but I questioned our eagerness to buy them,there were other options,the only aircraft evaluated for purchase by the government were Mirage 2000-5 and Su-30MKI,French and Russian both which have a strong defence lobby in India.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Sir , I am afraid I have to react here ! I am NOT impressed by Mig 21 s either. But please credit Israeli Mirages III (nickname Shahak ! ) when you mention the Six Days War.. The F-4 Phantom joined the Israeli Air Force in 1969 only.

Have a look at http://www.iaf.org.il/184-18178-en/IAF.aspx?indx=1

U.S Aircraft losses in Vietnam were mostly due to SAMs,MiG 21s did not in fact kick,even the F-4 Phantoms which are renouned for their poor dogfight performance initially achieved a 2:1 kill ratio against MiG 21s and the Israeli F-4s dominated Mig 21s in the 6 day war

 

[Chinmoy]

This statement is like saying: Boeing, Finmeccanica and General dynamics are all soviet era. So they are all shit.
View attachment 11131

Actually yes........ Boeing is even older then Mikoyan and Sukhoi. But the onus lies on how much development they have done on technicality of Aircraft and its component development.
By the way, I only meant the firms here by that comment. I was not pointing to the fighters.

 

[Scarface]

Sir , I am afraid I have to react here ! I am NOT impressed by Mig 21 s either. But please credit Israeli Mirages III (nickname Shahak ! ) when you mention the Six Days War.. The F-4 Phantom joined the Israeli Air Force in 1969 only.

Have a look at http://www.iaf.org.il/184-18178-en/IAF.aspx?indx=1

Definitely would have mentioned it,I got confused between the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War

 

[Defcon 1]

U.S Aircraft losses in Vietnam were mostly due to SAMs,MiG 21s did not in fact kick,even the F-4 Phantoms which are renouned for their poor dogfight performance initially achieved a 2:1 kill ratio against MiG 21s and the Israeli F-4s dominated Mig 21s in the 6 day war

The reason for the LWF program to exist was not some threat to air superiority from MiG21,it was the high cost of implementing F-X program aircraft (F-15 Eagle) across the board in the USAF.

The USNs Top Gun program had proven enough to counter MiG 21s,as they achieved 40:7 kill death ratios in the last days of Vietnam war.

Some info on Vietnam air war and its impact on LWF

The readers can make their judgements themselves.
Source: Technology and the Air Force A Retrospective Assessment, 1997

Alternatives to MiG29K ?
VTOL F-35Bs
In fact Indian Navy had floated an RFI for new aircraft and had received F-35B information in response,nothing came out of it.

I am sorry but this plain stupid. Mig29K was selected and ordered in 2004. F35B only received IOC in 2015. In 2004 how could navy have ordered a plane more than a decade before its IOC? F35 hadn't even made its first flight then. You want navy to order paper planes? Maybe we should cancel Rafale and order Neuron instead. And what about the fact that India is not associated with F35 program and would have to wait before the current orders got completed to get the aircraft. Not to add Russians would have simply loved to help in integrating the aircraft of their archenemy on their aircraft carrier, No? Or about the fact that in 2004 India US relations were nowhere as strong as today that it would have received F35. I mean, are you for serious or just trolling?

And Indian Navy's RFI was for aircraft for INS Vishal. Obviously nothing came out of it since nothing is moving forward on INS Vishal.

There is very little distinction to be mad, the,Su-30MKI was quite literally Su-27Pu(which was based on the two seater trainer Su-27UB) with canards,which were added later by the way.It was a soviet era airframe modified and upgraded to Indian needs,I don't know about the F-16 blk60 but neither airframes have had changes radical enough to be considered new airframes

Su-30MKI is a soviet era upgraded fighter

It would be a post-soviet era aircraft if the airframe hadn't been a derivative of the Su-27 or had a radical change like Legacy to Super Hornet.

It's a soviet era design,you can argue semantics and split hairs all you want but this is the reality.

Thank you for accepting that only the airframe is soviet era. That too is updated. I am sure you find it quite stupid to have a soviet era design in the IAF. Btw, here are some other stupid airforces as well.

Russian are definitely morons: Whole of their airforce is composed of Mig 29, Mig 31, Su 27, Su 30, Su 34, Su 35, Su 25.
All derived/upgraded versions of SOVIET ERA fighters. Not that it mattered when they annexed Crimea, but still, those guys must be morons.
They also selected Mig29K for their own aircraft carriers, such stupid guys.

Chinese too: depend heavily upon J11 series of fighters, which are nothing but reverse engineered Su30s/Su27s. Their sole aircraft carrier carries J15, which is reverse engineered Su33. And they are now trying to acquire Su35, which is nothing but some upgraded version of SOVIET ERA Su 27s. Another retards

French too are morons, since still majority of their airforce uses the SOVIET era Mirage 2000.

British too are idiots, for still using SOVIET ERA Tornadoes in strike role.

The biggest idiots are Americans, Most of their airforce is full of SOVIET ERA F15s, F16s, F18 hornets, B2 spirit, B1 Lancer, A10, etc. I mean it would have been enough if they had just stopped at SOVIET ERA. But they went a step further. Do you know that their B52s were produced in 1950s. And they will serve till 2040s. I mean that is just over the top. We need a new era to define their stupidity. Eisenhower Era maybe?

Anyways, thanks for your insights and opinions. This has been fun. But no need to reply to me anymore. Even if you do, you will be wasting your breath since I won't be replying to you. This discussion is over as far as I am concerned. Every exchange of information on DFI is positive, and sometimes funny too. Ciao.

 

[sbm]

Is there any complete video of this years Air Force Day Parade 2016 - same for the Army?

 

[Scarface]

Some info on Vietnam air war and its impact on LWF

The readers can make their judgements themselves.
Source: Technology and the Air Force A Retrospective Assessment, 1997


I am sorry but this plain stupid. Mig29K was selected and ordered in 2004. F35B only received IOC in 2015. In 2004 how could navy have ordered a plane more than a decade before its IOC? F35 hadn't even made its first flight then. You want navy to order paper planes? Maybe we should cancel Rafale and order Neuron instead. And what about the fact that India is not associated with F35 program and would have to wait before the current orders got completed to get the aircraft. Not to add Russians would have simply loved to help in integrating the aircraft of their archenemy on their aircraft carrier, No? Or about the fact that in 2004 India US relations were nowhere as strong as today that it would have received F35. I mean, are you for serious or just trolling?

And Indian Navy's RFI was for aircraft for INS Vishal. Obviously nothing came out of it since nothing is moving forward on INS Vishal.



Thank you for accepting that only the airframe is soviet era. That too is updated. I am sure you find it quite stupid to have a soviet era design in the IAF. Btw, here are some other stupid airforces as well.

Russian are definitely morons: Whole of their airforce is composed of Mig 29, Mig 31, Su 27, Su 30, Su 34, Su 35, Su 25.
All derived/upgraded versions of SOVIET ERA fighters. Not that it mattered when they annexed Crimea, but still, those guys must be morons.
They also selected Mig29K for their own aircraft carriers, such stupid guys.

Chinese too: depend heavily upon J11 series of fighters, which are nothing but reverse engineered Su30s/Su27s. Their sole aircraft carrier carries J15, which is reverse engineered Su33. And they are now trying to acquire Su35, which is nothing but some upgraded version of SOVIET ERA Su 27s. Another retards

French too are morons, since still majority of their airforce uses the SOVIET era Mirage 2000.

British too are idiots, for still using SOVIET ERA Tornadoes in strike role.

The biggest idiots are Americans, Most of their airforce is full of SOVIET ERA F15s, F16s, F18 hornets, B2 spirit, B1 Lancer, A10, etc. I mean it would have been enough if they had just stopped at SOVIET ERA. But they went a step further. Do you know that their B52s were produced in 1950s. And they will serve till 2040s. I mean that is just over the top. We need a new era to define their stupidity. Eisenhower Era maybe?

Anyways, thanks for your insights and opinions. This has been fun. But no need to reply to me anymore. Even if you do, you will be wasting your breath since I won't be replying to you. This discussion is over as far as I am concerned. Every exchange of information on DFI is positive, and sometimes funny too. Ciao.

And how does that document prove your point ? it does more to prove mine.
The document never states nor implies that the MiG21s were the reason for starting the program,the reason is clearly stated as the lack of an agile air superiority fighter.

The document also goes to say the average air war victory ratio was 3:1 , 1:1 at worst,only disappointing because the USAF holds itself to higher standards.Just because they want even better performance doesn't imply that they in any way were threatened.

Losing air battles to someone 3:1 is far from kicking ass,clearly the MiGs despite having the advantage aerodynamically , despite being home based lost to fighter-bombers.So much for that combat record.



Secondly,MiG 29Ks were not ordered in 2004,they were initially going to be purchased along with Vikrant but they weren't,the Indian Navy signed deal of the MiG-29K in 2010,the same year in which the IN floated the RFI and received information on the F-35

The design for Vishal began in 2012,so no,the F-35s weren't for Vishal,if I had to make a guess they were to replace our Harriers which were retired this year.


The Russians aren't stupid,their air war doctrine relies on area denial with ground based Air Defence systems,they can afford to skip out on newer aircraft designs,Our Air Defence network is not at par with theirs , and our threats are,great job on annexing Crimea,I am sure the Ukrainians must have put up a great fight with their own Soviet design air force if there was any air action.

The PLAAF indeed isn't anything to write home about , their numbers are.

The French however aren't "morons" because when we were ordering Soviet era aircraft derivatives in 2002,making them our air force's "backbone", they were inducting the new Rafales as their backbone and have 286 on order , and only have 352 Mirages which will only reduce in number


And the same applies to Americans, with their newer F-35s beginning the replacement of the mentioned old aircraft,with about 2400 on order already ,having retired Soviet Era F-117s and now using B-2s with another 6th gen bomber officially in the pipelines.

Meanwhile we are buying Soviet era design "backbones" , I hope you got the difference between them and us now.


Glad to know this had been fun for you although your passive aggressive replies lead me to believe otherwise,I don't mind you not replying to me either.Have a good one.

 

[rishivashista13]

Indian airforce new thrilling advertisement .


Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

 

[PD_Solo]

Indian airforce new thrilling advertisement .


Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

Wow..good video quality..

Our defense parades,exercises and product videos( i.e HAL birds,indigenous missiles and radars ) should also implement such high quality resolution and good voice over.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Lockheed Martin first to respond to invitation to build single-engine fighter in India[URL="http://[/B][/SIZE]


[I]Saab to signal acceptance by month-end; Boeing is still undecided[/I]

[B]By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 19th Oct 16[/B]

On Monday, US defence giant Lockheed Martin became the first international vendor to respond to an Indian Air Force (IAF) letter, soliciting interest in building a single-engine, medium fighter aircraft in India, with full transfer of technology.

“We sent our acceptance [to the IAF] earlier this week”, Lockheed Martin’s Randy Howard, who markets the F-16 worldwide, told Business Standard.

Meanwhile, Swedish defence corporation, Saab, which was sent a similar invitation, is learnt to be finalising its acceptance. “We will definitely say ‘yes’; most likely by the end of this month”, says a Saab official.

As Business Standard reported (October 8, “[I]IAF kicks off contest to make single-engine fighters in India[/I]”) the IAF sent out letters last week to top global aerospace vendors, inviting them to build a single-engine fighter in India.

Defence ministry sources confirm The Boeing Company has also been approached. Unlike Lockheed Martin and Saab, which are actively marketing single-engine fighters --- the F-16 Block 70 and the Gripen E respectively --- Boeing has no single-engine fighter to offer. Instead, it has been offering its twin-engine F/A-18 E/F.

Nor does Eurofighter, the European consortium that builds the twin-engine Typhoon, whose member firms also reportedly received the IAF inquiry.

The contours of the “single-engine fighter” contest are therefore emerging --- Lockheed Martin and Saab seem poised to be the only contenders. As this newspaper reported (August 16, “[I]Gripen, F-16, compete in MMRCA re-run[/I]”), both companies had earlier submitted what IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, described as “unsolicited offers” for building single-engine fighters in India.

Now, with Lockheed Martin having responded positively to the IAF’s inquiry, Saab’s acceptance, when received, will formally kick off a multi-vendor acquisition process.

The F-16 is amongst the older fighters still in frontline service, but Lockheed Martin describes to Business Standard an attractive offer that would make India the F-16 global hub, galvanizing aerospace component fabrication in the country.

[COLOR=#00b300][B]The offer involves transferring the world’s only F-16 production line from Forth Worth, Texas, to India. Thereafter, every F-16 built, and a large share of the spare parts and sub-systems for every F-16 flying across the globe would come from India.[/B][/COLOR]


[B][COLOR=#00b300]“Our offer is not for just building a hundred F-16s in India; or even another hundred F-16s for the export market. The real value would come from the tens of thousands of spare parts, components, sub-systems and systems that would sustain the 3,200-plus F-16s still flying in the US, and in 24 other countries”, says Howard.[/COLOR][/B]

[B][COLOR=#ff0000]Intriguingly, that could mean spares and expendables for Pakistan’s F-16 fleet would be sourced largely from India.[/COLOR][/B] Lockheed Martin points out that bringing the production line to India would be “a strategic opportunity”.

In truth, India would have little control over the F-16 components it builds for the global F-16 fleet, including Pakistan’s. Governed by a “global F-16 sustainment programme”, the components would go into a chain of US-controlled warehouses across the globe, from where user air forces would draw their requirements.

In discussions with Lockheed Martin officials, it is evident that they are concerned by the negativity in India caused by Pakistan’s long association with the F-16. Yet the company is banking on an attractive business case to tamp down Indian reservations.

For Lockheed Martin, shifting the F-16 line to India would be a double benefit. With the F-16 ending its prodigious production run (of 4,588 F-16s ordered over the years, just 15 remain to be delivered), Lockheed Martin now wants to build the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at Forth Worth.

[B][COLOR=#00b300]Yet, an F-16 line is essential, since the US Air Force (USAF) plans to operate its late-model F-16s (Block 40 and Block 50 versions) for another 30 years, till 2045.[/COLOR][/B] Transferring the production line to India would assure Washington that its F-16s would be reliably sustained.

Howard argues that F-16 production is not yet closed. Bahrain and other West Asian countries are negotiating purchases and there are potential buyers in former Soviet countries in NATO, Indonesia and Columbia. He holds out the possibility of building these orders in India.

It remains unclear how much weightage cost would have in selecting a light fighter for the IAF. Lockheed Martin is confident of offering the cheapest fighter in its class, having more than amortised its production line while building over 4,500 fighters.

“Transferring the line to India will make the F-16 even cheaper. And that will bring in even more export orders”, predicts Howard, optimistically.

[B][COLOR=#b30000]There is little clarity, however, on whether Washington or New Delhi would have the casting vote on foreign sales of F-16s built in India. It seems likely that both governments would have to concur on third-party, export sales.[/COLOR][/B]

Lockheed Martin strongly rejects the notion that the F-16, first built in the 1970s, is obsolescent. Howard points to the Block 70’s battle-proven Northrop Grumman APG-83 airborne electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a key fighter combat system. That leverages technologies developed for the F-35’s fifth-generation AESA radar.

“Nothing in the world compares with the experience in AESA radars that Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman bring to the table”, argues Howard.

To be sure, the F-16 Block 70 is a versatile combat platform. It flies faster, climbs quicker and carries more armament than most fighters in its class. T[B][COLOR=#00b300]he “conformal fuel tanks” in late-version F-16s allow long-range operations. With two additional 370-gallon drop tanks and predominantly air-to-air armament, the F-16 has a combat radius of 1,500 kilometres --- comparable to the much bigger Rafale.

With the heavier air-to-ground weaponry that the F-16 carries for strike missions, the radius of action is still an impressive 700 kilometres.[/COLOR][/B]

Alongside an aggressive marketing pitch to the IAF, Lockheed Martin is also moving ahead strongly with developing vendors in India, and a supply chain that would feed into an Indian F-16 line. On November 7 and 8, a vendors’ conference is planned in Bengaluru"]http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/10/lockheed-martin-first-to-respond-to.html


Saab to signal acceptance by month-end; Boeing is still undecided

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 19th Oct 16

On Monday, US defence giant Lockheed Martin became the first international vendor to respond to an Indian Air Force (IAF) letter, soliciting interest in building a single-engine, medium fighter aircraft in India, with full transfer of technology.

“We sent our acceptance [to the IAF] earlier this week”, Lockheed Martin’s Randy Howard, who markets the F-16 worldwide, told Business Standard.

Meanwhile, Swedish defence corporation, Saab, which was sent a similar invitation, is learnt to be finalising its acceptance. “We will definitely say ‘yes’; most likely by the end of this month”, says a Saab official.

As Business Standard reported (October 8, “IAF kicks off contest to make single-engine fighters in India”) the IAF sent out letters last week to top global aerospace vendors, inviting them to build a single-engine fighter in India.

Defence ministry sources confirm The Boeing Company has also been approached. Unlike Lockheed Martin and Saab, which are actively marketing single-engine fighters --- the F-16 Block 70 and the Gripen E respectively --- Boeing has no single-engine fighter to offer. Instead, it has been offering its twin-engine F/A-18 E/F.

Nor does Eurofighter, the European consortium that builds the twin-engine Typhoon, whose member firms also reportedly received the IAF inquiry.

The contours of the “single-engine fighter” contest are therefore emerging --- Lockheed Martin and Saab seem poised to be the only contenders. As this newspaper reported (August 16, “Gripen, F-16, compete in MMRCA re-run”), both companies had earlier submitted what IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, described as “unsolicited offers” for building single-engine fighters in India.

Now, with Lockheed Martin having responded positively to the IAF’s inquiry, Saab’s acceptance, when received, will formally kick off a multi-vendor acquisition process.

The F-16 is amongst the older fighters still in frontline service, but Lockheed Martin describes to Business Standard an attractive offer that would make India the F-16 global hub, galvanizing aerospace component fabrication in the country.

The offer involves transferring the world’s only F-16 production line from Forth Worth, Texas, to India. Thereafter, every F-16 built, and a large share of the spare parts and sub-systems for every F-16 flying across the globe would come from India.


“Our offer is not for just building a hundred F-16s in India; or even another hundred F-16s for the export market. The real value would come from the tens of thousands of spare parts, components, sub-systems and systems that would sustain the 3,200-plus F-16s still flying in the US, and in 24 other countries”, says Howard.

Intriguingly, that could mean spares and expendables for Pakistan’s F-16 fleet would be sourced largely from India. Lockheed Martin points out that bringing the production line to India would be “a strategic opportunity”.

In truth, India would have little control over the F-16 components it builds for the global F-16 fleet, including Pakistan’s. Governed by a “global F-16 sustainment programme”, the components would go into a chain of US-controlled warehouses across the globe, from where user air forces would draw their requirements.

In discussions with Lockheed Martin officials, it is evident that they are concerned by the negativity in India caused by Pakistan’s long association with the F-16. Yet the company is banking on an attractive business case to tamp down Indian reservations.

For Lockheed Martin, shifting the F-16 line to India would be a double benefit. With the F-16 ending its prodigious production run (of 4,588 F-16s ordered over the years, just 15 remain to be delivered), Lockheed Martin now wants to build the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at Forth Worth.

Yet, an F-16 line is essential, since the US Air Force (USAF) plans to operate its late-model F-16s (Block 40 and Block 50 versions) for another 30 years, till 2045. Transferring the production line to India would assure Washington that its F-16s would be reliably sustained.

Howard argues that F-16 production is not yet closed. Bahrain and other West Asian countries are negotiating purchases and there are potential buyers in former Soviet countries in NATO, Indonesia and Columbia. He holds out the possibility of building these orders in India.

It remains unclear how much weightage cost would have in selecting a light fighter for the IAF. Lockheed Martin is confident of offering the cheapest fighter in its class, having more than amortised its production line while building over 4,500 fighters.

“Transferring the line to India will make the F-16 even cheaper. And that will bring in even more export orders”, predicts Howard, optimistically.

There is little clarity, however, on whether Washington or New Delhi would have the casting vote on foreign sales of F-16s built in India. It seems likely that both governments would have to concur on third-party, export sales.

Lockheed Martin strongly rejects the notion that the F-16, first built in the 1970s, is obsolescent. Howard points to the Block 70’s battle-proven Northrop Grumman APG-83 airborne electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a key fighter combat system. That leverages technologies developed for the F-35’s fifth-generation AESA radar.

“Nothing in the world compares with the experience in AESA radars that Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman bring to the table”, argues Howard.

To be sure, the F-16 Block 70 is a versatile combat platform. It flies faster, climbs quicker and carries more armament than most fighters in its class. The “conformal fuel tanks” in late-version F-16s allow long-range operations. With two additional 370-gallon drop tanks and predominantly air-to-air armament, the F-16 has a combat radius of 1,500 kilometres --- comparable to the much bigger Rafale.

With the heavier air-to-ground weaponry that the F-16 carries for strike missions, the radius of action is still an impressive 700 kilometres.

Alongside an aggressive marketing pitch to the IAF, Lockheed Martin is also moving ahead strongly with developing vendors in India, and a supply chain that would feed into an Indian F-16 line. On November 7 and 8, a vendors’ conference is planned in Bengaluru.[/url][/B][/SIZE]

 

[Rahul Singh]

Saab links Gripen bid with Tejas programme, to counter F-16 production numbers


By Ajai Shukla

Linkoping, Sweden

Business Standard, 21st Oct 16


The contest to supply the Indian Air Force (IAF) a single-engine, medium fighter is currently playing out as a two-horse race. US giant, Lockheed Martin, is the Goliath looking to slay the David that is Swedish firm, Saab.


Lockheed Martin, which has offered to shift its F-16 production line to India, is the world’s biggest defence firm, with US $46.1 billion dollars in sales last year and an order backlog of almost $100 billion. Saab, which has offered its latest fighter, the Gripen E, appears a relative minnow, with $3 billion in sales last year, and an order book of $12.9 billion.


Yet, Saab is an extraordinarily accomplished minnow. Visitors to the Swedish Air Force Museum near Saab’s aerospace facility at Linkoping, two hours by train from Stockholm, encounter an aerospace tradition that has, since 1926, kept pace with the world’s best.


The museum displays the J-29 “Flying Barrel”, the first “swept-wing” fighter after World War II; the Draken, Europe’s first supersonic fighter, which pioneered the “double delta wing”, and the Viggen, the first mainstream fighter to feature the canard --- now common in high-performance fighters. India came close to buying the Viggen but Washington, which provided the engines, blocked the sale in 1978. The IAF bought the Anglo-French Jaguar instead, which still remains in service.


As Saab’s marketing team never tires of telling Indians, this excellence in defence production stemmed from Sweden’s traditional strategic independence --- similar to India’s. After remaining neutral through World War II, Sweden declined to join NATO in 1949, choosing to cater for its own defence against Russia.


Responsible for its own defence, Sweden leveraged an existing scientific and engineering culture to develop an advanced aerospace and defence industry. In the late 1950s, the Swedish Air Force was the world’s fourth largest, fielding over 1,000 frontline aircraft.


Anticipating that a Soviet invasion would quickly render its airfields unusable, the Swedish Air Force insisted on light, versatile fighters that could operate from short stretches of highway, refuelling and rearming in minutes before re-joining battle.


This is the tradition that shapes the JAS-39 Gripen E, Saab’s latest and most advanced fighter that is expected to make its first flight by end-2016. Unlike Dassault’s Rafale, which endured tortuous years of wait before Egypt became its first export customer, the Gripen E has been selected by Brazil even before its first flight. In winning the Brazil tender, the Gripen E beat the Rafale, and Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.


In sheer aerodynamic performance, the Gripen E will probably be a match for the F-16 Block 70. While the former has still to fly, its predecessor, the Gripen D, was extensively evaluated by the IAF --- mainly to its satisfaction --- as part of the 2007 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender. The Gripen E, incorporating a new General Electric F-414 engine; is larger, heavier and more powerful than the Gripen D, which had an older F-404 power plant.


Even the avionics are comparable. The F-16’s Northrop Grumman APG-83 airborne electronically scanned array (AESA) radar is a proven, highly effective combat system. But the Gripen E could score with more sophisticated data networks that bring together inputs from multiple sensors --- such as airborne warning and control systems (AWACS), satellites and a fighter’s own AESA radar --- fusing data to present a comprehensive picture of the air battle in a cockpit arrangement that is amongst the world’s most pilot-friendly.


With combat performance similar, the choice between the F-16 and Gripen E could boil down, as IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said last month, to two factors --- procurement and operating cost, and technology transfer.


In procurement cost, Lockheed Martin would score by transferring a fully amortised assembly line from Forth Worth, Texas to India. Further, by creating a vendor and sub-vendor eco-system in India to sustain a global inventory of 3,200 F-16s, spares and maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) would be cheaper. Aviation analysts like IHS Jane’s 360 assess the Gripen’s “operating cost per hour” to be lower than any comparable fighter, but that advantage would be nullified by the scale of the F-16 production business.


Currently, there are less than a hundred Gripen E on order: 60 by Sweden, and 36 by Brazil. But Saab hopes more will follow, and there could also be interest in an aircraft carrier version of the fighter --- the Sea Gripen.


Saab’s strategy, therefore, hinges on a technology-based deal that Lockheed Martin simply cannot offer because of US export control laws. Linking its offer with the development of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Saab has offered to help the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) fast-track the Tejas Mark 1A. The four improvements required to the current Tejas — better combat radar, more lethal weapons, dedicated electronic warfare capability and better maintainability --- are well within Saab’s capabilities. Sweetening the deal, Saab has offered to partner ADA in developing India’s planned next-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).


New Delhi’s choices, therefore, are: on the one hand, the F-16’s lower price and the opportunity to become an industrial supplier to a 3,200-strong global F-16 fleet. On the other hand, Saab’s technology partnership, unencumbered by a restrictive export control regime, which could smoothen the induction of the LCA and AMCA.


Theoretically Washington could veto the Gripen bid, just as it had the Viggen. The Gripen E flies with US engines and other aircraft systems. Yet, that is highly unlikely, given the closeness of US-India relations, and Washington’s frequent declarations that it would like to see India’s military built up into a more powerful regional force.


Finally, Saab offers a less controversial route to a contract that could encounter political attack. In the Indian psyche, the F-16 remains strongly linked with Pakistan. Washington cleared a tranche of F-16 Block 50/52 in the last one year --- a procurement that was eventually blocked by the US Congress, through the denial of funding. The appetite of the government to buck this trend remains uncertain.

 

[WolfPack86]

Why Pakistan May Stop Getting #F16 Fighters From US - NDTV
https://twitter.com/hashtag/f16

 

[sorcerer]

With Northern Borders Secured, a new squadron of Su-30MKIs Deployed in Tamil Nadu

In a major development, Tamil Nadu’s Thanjavur Air Force Base has received a squadron of India’s frontline Su30-MKI fighters. Latest satellite imaginary, obtained by DigitalGlobe and Planet Labs, has confirmed the deployment of the fighter jets to peninsular India, though an official confirmation for the same was not obtained as of writing this report.

Thanjavur airbase was inaugurated in 2013 to house a squadron of Su-30MKIs. Reports that surfaced at the time suggested that the deployment of these aircraft will be completed by 2017-18. In view of the given timeline, the deployment could well be underway.

The deployment of fighter aircraft to India’s southern theatre, away from its troubled north-eastern and north-western borders, can be inferred in two different ways: one, India is preparing to project its power to the wider Indian Ocean Region, and two, the air force has finally found an answer to the low serviceability level of Su-30MKIs.

India, which sees the Indian Ocean as an area of primary interest, has been looking at options to safeguard its interests in the region. While the navy is designated to play a major role in this strategy, it has limited resources. Therefore, the deployment could be seen as an effort to project power in the region.

Deployment of fighter aircraft to the low-threat southern theatre, at a time when the Indian Air Force (IAF) is dealing with serious fleet shortage, suggests that the IAF has managed to improve the serviceability level of Su-30MKIs. Not more than a year ago, less than 50 per cent of Su-30 fleet remained serviceable at any given time due to frequent engine failures.

The imagery also suggests that the government is developing additional infrastructure at the air force base, with the construction of additional support buildings almost complete. The presence of two triple fences secure structure points towards the existence of munition depots, likely associated with the airfield’s weapons handling activity.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/W...ron-of-Su-30MKIs-Deployed-in-Tamil-Nadu-28939

 

[kamaal]

Indian Mirage 2000 now designated M-2000I, little expensive upgrade cost but now this bird looks very lethal with its new configurations.

 

[PD_Solo]

^^ what config has been upgraded?

 

[Zebra]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-defence-idUKKCN12T05O

Sat Oct 29, 2016 | 9:30am BST

India offers to buy 200 foreign combat jets - if they're Made-in-India

By Sanjeev Miglani | NEW DELHI

India is offering to buy hundreds of fighter planes from foreign manufacturers - as long as the jets are made in India and with a local partner , air force officials say.

A deal for 200 single-engine planes produced in India - which the air force says could rise to 300 as it fully phases out ageing Soviet-era aircraft - could be worth anything from $13-$15 billion, experts say, potentially one of the country's biggest military aircraft deals.

After a deal to buy high-end Rafale planes from France's Dassault (AVMD.PA) was scaled back to just 36 jets last month, the Indian Air Force is desperately trying to speed up other acquisitions and arrest a fall in operational strength, now a third less than required to face both China and Pakistan.


But Prime Minister Narendra Modi's administration wants any further military planes to be built in India with an Indian partner to kickstart a domestic aircraft industry, and end an expensive addiction to imports.

Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) said it is interested in setting up a production line for its F-16 plane in India for not just the Indian military, but also for export.

And Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) has offered a rival production line for its Gripen aircraft, setting up an early contest for one of the biggest military plane deals in play.

"The immediate shortfall is 200. That would be the minimum we would be looking at," said an air officer briefed on the Make-in-India plans under which a foreign manufacturer will partner local firms to build the aircraft with technology transfer.

India's defence ministry has written to several companies asking if they would be willing to set up an assembly line for single-engine fighter planes in India and the amount of technology transfer that would happen, another government source said.

"We are testing the waters, testing the foreign firms' willingness to move production here and to find out their expectations," the person said.

OPERATIONAL GAPS

India's air force originally planned for 126 Rafale twin-engine fighters from Dassault, but the two sides could not agree on the terms of local production with a state-run Indian firm and settled for 36 planes in a fly-away condition.

Adding to the military's problems is India's three-decade effort to build a single-engine fighter of its own which was meant to be the backbone of the air force. Only two of those Light Combat Aircraft, called Tejas, have been delivered to the air force which has ordered 140 of them.

The Indian Air Force is down to 32 operational squadrons compared with the 45 it has said are necessary, and in March the vice chief Air Marshal B.S. Dhanoa told parliament's defence committee that it didn't have the operational strength to fight a two front war against China and Pakistan.

JET MAKERS RESPOND

Saab said it was ready to not only produce its frontline Gripen fighter in India, but help build a local aviation industry base.

"We are very experienced in transfer of technology – our way of working involves extensive cooperation with our partners to establish a complete ecosystem, not just an assembly line," said Jan Widerström, Chairman and Managing Director, Saab India Technologies.

He confirmed Saab had received the letter from the Indian government seeking a fourth generation fighter. A source close to the company said that while there was no minimum order set in stone for it to lay down a production line, they would expect to build at least 100 planes at the facility.

Lockheed Martin said it had responded to the defence ministry's letter with an offer to transfer the entire production of its F-16 fighter to India.

"Exclusive F-16 production in India would make India home to the world's only F-16 production facility, a leading exporter of advanced fighter aircraft, and offer Indian industry the opportunity to become an integral part of the world's largest fighter aircraft supply chain," Abhay Paranjape, National Executive for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Business Development in India said in an email.

U.S. TOP SUPPLIER

Lockheed's offer comes on the back of expanding U.S.-India military ties in which Washington has emerged as India's top arms supplier in recent years, ousting old ally Russia.

Earlier this year Boeing (BA.N) also offered India its twin-engine F/A-18 Hornets, but the level of technology transfer was not clear.

India has never previously attempted to build a modern aircraft production line, whether military or civilian. State-run Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) (HIAE.NS) has assembled Russian combat jets including the Su-30, but these are under licensed production.

"We have never had control over technology. This represents the most serious attempt to build a domestic base. A full or a near-full tech transfer lays the ground for further development," said retired Indian air marshal M. Matheswaran, a former adviser at HAL.

He said the Indian government would be looking at producing at least 200 fighters, and then probably some more, to make up for the decades of delay in modernising the air force.


But Prime Minister Narendra Modi's administration wants any further military planes to be built in India with an Indian partner to kickstart a domestic aircraft industry, and end an expensive addiction to imports.

Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) said it is interested in setting up a production line for its F-16 plane in India for not just the Indian military, but also for export.

And Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) has offered a rival production line for its Gripen aircraft, setting up an early contest for one of the biggest military plane deals in play.

"The immediate shortfall is 200. That would be the minimum we would be looking at," said an air officer briefed on the Make-in-India plans under which a foreign manufacturer will partner local firms to build the aircraft with technology transfer.

India's defence ministry has written to several companies asking if they would be willing to set up an assembly line for single-engine fighter planes in India and the amount of technology transfer that would happen, another government source said.

"We are testing the waters, testing the foreign firms' willingness to move production here and to find out their expectations," the person said.

OPERATIONAL GAPS

India's air force originally planned for 126 Rafale twin-engine fighters from Dassault, but the two sides could not agree on the terms of local production with a state-run Indian firm and settled for 36 planes in a fly-away condition.

Adding to the military's problems is India's three-decade effort to build a single-engine fighter of its own which was meant to be the backbone of the air force. Only two of those Light Combat Aircraft, called Tejas, have been delivered to the air force which has ordered 140 of them.

The Indian Air Force is down to 32 operational squadrons compared with the 45 it has said are necessary, and in March the vice chief Air Marshal B.S. Dhanoa told parliament's defence committee that it didn't have the operational strength to fight a two front war against China and Pakistan.


JET MAKERS RESPOND

Saab said it was ready to not only produce its frontline Gripen fighter in India, but help build a local aviation industry base.

"We are very experienced in transfer of technology – our way of working involves extensive cooperation with our partners to establish a complete ecosystem, not just an assembly line," said Jan Widerström, Chairman and Managing Director, Saab India Technologies.

He confirmed Saab had received the letter from the Indian government seeking a fourth generation fighter. A source close to the company said that while there was no minimum order set in stone for it to lay down a production line, they would expect to build at least 100 planes at the facility.

Lockheed Martin said it had responded to the defence ministry's letter with an offer to transfer the entire production of its F-16 fighter to India.

"Exclusive F-16 production in India would make India home to the world's only F-16 production facility, a leading exporter of advanced fighter aircraft, and offer Indian industry the opportunity to become an integral part of the world's largest fighter aircraft supply chain," Abhay Paranjape, National Executive for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Business Development in India said in an email.

U.S. TOP SUPPLIER

Lockheed's offer comes on the back of expanding U.S.-India military ties in which Washington has emerged as India's top arms supplier in recent years, ousting old ally Russia.

Earlier this year Boeing (BA.N) also offered India its twin-engine F/A-18 Hornets, but the level of technology transfer was not clear.

India has never previously attempted to build a modern aircraft production line, whether military or civilian. State-run Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) (HIAE.NS) has assembled Russian combat jets including the Su-30, but these are under licensed production.

"We have never had control over technology. This represents the most serious attempt to build a domestic base. A full or a near-full tech transfer lays the ground for further development," said retired Indian air marshal M. Matheswaran, a former adviser at HAL.

He said the Indian government would be looking at producing at least 200 fighters, and then probably some more, to make up for the decades of delay in modernising the air force.



(Reporting by Sanjeev Miglani, with additional reporting by Tommy Wilkes in NEW DELHI; Editing by Ian Geoghegan)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet is no spring chicken, it is still a very formidable machine
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/india-offers-to-buy-200-foreign-combat.html

 

[bengalraider]

Seems like we are really planning for a 45 sqdn force by 2027.Can be easily done if we play our cards right
If the IAF gets it's act together here's what our airfore could look like by 2030.
1)15 sqdn SU30MKI
2)10 sqdn LCA variants
3)10 Sqdn Foreign MRCA
4)10 Sqdn 5th gen + Mirage + Rafale

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Seems like we are really planning for a 45 sqdn force by 2027.Can be easily done if we play our cards right
If the IAF gets it's act together here's what our airfore could look like by 2030.
1)15 sqdn SU30MKI
2)10 sqdn LCA variants
3)10 Sqdn Foreign MRCA
4)10 Sqdn 5th gen + Mirage + Rafale

Babumoshai

The expectation of the new deal is 200 fighters expected to go upto 300.

Plus Rafale plus Mirage plus FGFA plus AMCA(hopefully)will be more than 10 squadron by 2030.

We may be looking at a 50squadron IAF.

 

[aditya10r]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-defence-idUKKCN12T05O

Sat Oct 29, 2016 | 9:30am BST

India offers to buy 200 foreign combat jets - if they're Made-in-India

By Sanjeev Miglani | NEW DELHI

India is offering to buy hundreds of fighter planes from foreign manufacturers - as long as the jets are made in India and with a local partner , air force officials say.

A deal for 200 single-engine planes produced in India - which the air force says could rise to 300 as it fully phases out ageing Soviet-era aircraft - could be worth anything from $13-$15 billion, experts say, potentially one of the country's biggest military aircraft deals.

After a deal to buy high-end Rafale planes from France's Dassault (AVMD.PA) was scaled back to just 36 jets last month, the Indian Air Force is desperately trying to speed up other acquisitions and arrest a fall in operational strength, now a third less than required to face both China and Pakistan.


But Prime Minister Narendra Modi's administration wants any further military planes to be built in India with an Indian partner to kickstart a domestic aircraft industry, and end an expensive addiction to imports.

Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) said it is interested in setting up a production line for its F-16 plane in India for not just the Indian military, but also for export.

And Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) has offered a rival production line for its Gripen aircraft, setting up an early contest for one of the biggest military plane deals in play.

"The immediate shortfall is 200. That would be the minimum we would be looking at," said an air officer briefed on the Make-in-India plans under which a foreign manufacturer will partner local firms to build the aircraft with technology transfer.

India's defence ministry has written to several companies asking if they would be willing to set up an assembly line for single-engine fighter planes in India and the amount of technology transfer that would happen, another government source said.

"We are testing the waters, testing the foreign firms' willingness to move production here and to find out their expectations," the person said.

OPERATIONAL GAPS

India's air force originally planned for 126 Rafale twin-engine fighters from Dassault, but the two sides could not agree on the terms of local production with a state-run Indian firm and settled for 36 planes in a fly-away condition.

Adding to the military's problems is India's three-decade effort to build a single-engine fighter of its own which was meant to be the backbone of the air force. Only two of those Light Combat Aircraft, called Tejas, have been delivered to the air force which has ordered 140 of them.

The Indian Air Force is down to 32 operational squadrons compared with the 45 it has said are necessary, and in March the vice chief Air Marshal B.S. Dhanoa told parliament's defence committee that it didn't have the operational strength to fight a two front war against China and Pakistan.

JET MAKERS RESPOND

Saab said it was ready to not only produce its frontline Gripen fighter in India, but help build a local aviation industry base.

"We are very experienced in transfer of technology – our way of working involves extensive cooperation with our partners to establish a complete ecosystem, not just an assembly line," said Jan Widerström, Chairman and Managing Director, Saab India Technologies.

He confirmed Saab had received the letter from the Indian government seeking a fourth generation fighter. A source close to the company said that while there was no minimum order set in stone for it to lay down a production line, they would expect to build at least 100 planes at the facility.

Lockheed Martin said it had responded to the defence ministry's letter with an offer to transfer the entire production of its F-16 fighter to India.

"Exclusive F-16 production in India would make India home to the world's only F-16 production facility, a leading exporter of advanced fighter aircraft, and offer Indian industry the opportunity to become an integral part of the world's largest fighter aircraft supply chain," Abhay Paranjape, National Executive for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Business Development in India said in an email.

U.S. TOP SUPPLIER

Lockheed's offer comes on the back of expanding U.S.-India military ties in which Washington has emerged as India's top arms supplier in recent years, ousting old ally Russia.

Earlier this year Boeing (BA.N) also offered India its twin-engine F/A-18 Hornets, but the level of technology transfer was not clear.

India has never previously attempted to build a modern aircraft production line, whether military or civilian. State-run Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) (HIAE.NS) has assembled Russian combat jets including the Su-30, but these are under licensed production.

"We have never had control over technology. This represents the most serious attempt to build a domestic base. A full or a near-full tech transfer lays the ground for further development," said retired Indian air marshal M. Matheswaran, a former adviser at HAL.

He said the Indian government would be looking at producing at least 200 fighters, and then probably some more, to make up for the decades of delay in modernising the air force.


But Prime Minister Narendra Modi's administration wants any further military planes to be built in India with an Indian partner to kickstart a domestic aircraft industry, and end an expensive addiction to imports.

Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) said it is interested in setting up a production line for its F-16 plane in India for not just the Indian military, but also for export.

And Sweden's Saab (SAABb.ST) has offered a rival production line for its Gripen aircraft, setting up an early contest for one of the biggest military plane deals in play.

"The immediate shortfall is 200. That would be the minimum we would be looking at," said an air officer briefed on the Make-in-India plans under which a foreign manufacturer will partner local firms to build the aircraft with technology transfer.

India's defence ministry has written to several companies asking if they would be willing to set up an assembly line for single-engine fighter planes in India and the amount of technology transfer that would happen, another government source said.

"We are testing the waters, testing the foreign firms' willingness to move production here and to find out their expectations," the person said.

OPERATIONAL GAPS

India's air force originally planned for 126 Rafale twin-engine fighters from Dassault, but the two sides could not agree on the terms of local production with a state-run Indian firm and settled for 36 planes in a fly-away condition.

Adding to the military's problems is India's three-decade effort to build a single-engine fighter of its own which was meant to be the backbone of the air force. Only two of those Light Combat Aircraft, called Tejas, have been delivered to the air force which has ordered 140 of them.

The Indian Air Force is down to 32 operational squadrons compared with the 45 it has said are necessary, and in March the vice chief Air Marshal B.S. Dhanoa told parliament's defence committee that it didn't have the operational strength to fight a two front war against China and Pakistan.


JET MAKERS RESPOND

Saab said it was ready to not only produce its frontline Gripen fighter in India, but help build a local aviation industry base.

"We are very experienced in transfer of technology – our way of working involves extensive cooperation with our partners to establish a complete ecosystem, not just an assembly line," said Jan Widerström, Chairman and Managing Director, Saab India Technologies.

He confirmed Saab had received the letter from the Indian government seeking a fourth generation fighter. A source close to the company said that while there was no minimum order set in stone for it to lay down a production line, they would expect to build at least 100 planes at the facility.

Lockheed Martin said it had responded to the defence ministry's letter with an offer to transfer the entire production of its F-16 fighter to India.

"Exclusive F-16 production in India would make India home to the world's only F-16 production facility, a leading exporter of advanced fighter aircraft, and offer Indian industry the opportunity to become an integral part of the world's largest fighter aircraft supply chain," Abhay Paranjape, National Executive for Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Business Development in India said in an email.

U.S. TOP SUPPLIER

Lockheed's offer comes on the back of expanding U.S.-India military ties in which Washington has emerged as India's top arms supplier in recent years, ousting old ally Russia.

Earlier this year Boeing (BA.N) also offered India its twin-engine F/A-18 Hornets, but the level of technology transfer was not clear.

India has never previously attempted to build a modern aircraft production line, whether military or civilian. State-run Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) (HIAE.NS) has assembled Russian combat jets including the Su-30, but these are under licensed production.

"We have never had control over technology. This represents the most serious attempt to build a domestic base. A full or a near-full tech transfer lays the ground for further development," said retired Indian air marshal M. Matheswaran, a former adviser at HAL.

He said the Indian government would be looking at producing at least 200 fighters, and then probably some more, to make up for the decades of delay in modernising the air force.



(Reporting by Sanjeev Miglani, with additional reporting by Tommy Wilkes in NEW DELHI; Editing by Ian Geoghegan)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Though the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet is no spring chicken, it is still a very formidable machine
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/india-offers-to-buy-200-foreign-combat.html

Now we can conclude
With this deal

AF HAS SIGNED THE DEATH CERTIFICATE OF LCA

Am pretty sure it's going to affect AMCA

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Now we can conclude
With this deal

AF HAS SIGNED THE DEATH CERTIFICATE OF LCA

Am pretty sure it's going to affect AMCA

140 orders for LCA confirmed.But we cannot put all eggs in one basket and also cant wait for LCA to mature and let our strength be depleted.