India US Relations

[DingDong]

this is called an over reaction, especially when these kind of moves only makes India’s adversaries and ill wishers happy.

especially when empty space movement is paki sponsored in the first place.

Pakistan was always the cat's paw. Pakistan never had the brain, might or money for such projects. Kashmir, North East and Punjab are the Anglo-Saxon projects headed by the US.

 

[AnantS]

especially when empty space movement is paki sponsored in the first place.

US (and Anglo world) is the main enabler... Pakistan just provides Anglo world shoulder for firing and chest for receiving bullets and backside for...

 

[Eagle Eye]

especially when empty space movement is paki sponsored in the first place.

Disagree. Khalistani issue in UK, US & Canada are west's stick to beat India. Nothing to do with pak.

 

[another_armchair]

We should just surrender to our fate, shouldn't we?



We must play our cards only when they can deliver the "maximum impact" or they become absolutely essential.

Define fate.

We chickened out and dumped Iran. Where did I ever say we should surrender?

Am glad we stood our ground over our relations with Russia despite being betrayed by them in 2020 during our conflict with China.

The change in stance by GoI was a welcome break from the usual 'agreeing' to most demands like in the past in return for little to nothing.

 

[DingDong]

Define fate.

We chickened out and dumped Iran. Where did I ever say we should surrender?

Am glad we stood our ground over our relations with Russia despite being betrayed by them in 2020 during our conflict with China.

The change in stance by GoI was a welcome break from the usual 'agreeing' to most demands like in the past in return for little to nothing.

We did the right thing when we dumped Iran, and we must do everything in our capacity to stop Iran from acquiring a Nuclear Weapon. If we fail then this craze will not stop at Iran, KSA will be the next, and the UAE will follow closely.

2020 was not the first instance of the Russian "betrayal". It has been going on for a long time, starting with the Cryogenic Engine issue. Russia temporarily managed to isolate India in Afghanistan, and tried to overreach in Pakistan and Bangladesh where it doesn't belong.

Just like the US establishes and uses "flash points" across the globe, we are also working on our own "flash points". Ukraine has become a good "flash point" for the west. Why should we let go of the opportunity?

Ukraine serves both ends, west gets to taste of it's own medicine, and Russia doesn't get to play the "dummy superpower" close to India's neighborhood due to it's diminished capabilities. The longer this battle stretches, the better for us.

Let them destroy each other. FIGHT FIGHT!

 

[ezsasa]

any separatist movement against India from cold war era will invariably have a western link, same is true for empty space movement as well. it will be true for almost all friends of soviets.

India's security establishment does not consider anglo-saxon countries as direct threats, that categorisation goes to pak and china, as they are our adversaries in the our neighbourhood.

coming back to my original response to @Eagle Eye , what benefit does not being at the negotiating table give us by over reacting?

Pakistan was always the cat's paw. Pakistan never had the brain, might or money for such projects. Kashmir, North East and Punjab are the Anglo-Saxon projects headed by the US.

US (and Anglo world) is the main enabler... Pakistan just provides Anglo world shoulder for firing and chest for receiving bullets and backside for...

Disagree. Khalistani issue in UK, US & Canada are west's stick to beat India. Nothing to do with pak.

 

[hurrians]

Rabinder Singh wonder who might be CC-1in his case. Chicomese and pakjabis acted as pawns of gora sahib.

 

[Eagle Eye]

@ezsasa other than my 4th point, all others aren't over reaction.

Ban or Tax FCRA Ngos is good for our civilization & security.
Modi govt is against colonial, doesn't make sense India in CWG.
For canada cancelling trade talk, we should cut defence ties.

 

[DingDong]

any separatist movement against India from cold war era will invariably have a western link, same is true for empty space movement as well. it will be true for almost all friends of soviets.

India's security establishment does not consider anglo-saxon countries as direct threats, that categorisation goes to pak and china, as they are our adversaries in the our neighbourhood.

coming back to my original response to @Eagle Eye , what benefit does not being at the negotiating table give us by over reacting?

Today is the era of hybrid terrorism. Physical separation does limit the US and allies' capability to deal direct damage to India, however these rich countries have got lot of money to throw at people who are willing to run their agenda by proxy. Take Ukraine's current political leadership for an example.

The Indian security establishment seems to have changed it's stance after the Amritpal Singh episode. The guy was abruptly parachuted into India from Belgium with a single agenda on his mind. He had received proper training to appear and talk in a particular manner (Bhinderanwale). He received wide coverage from the western media. Thankfully, he proved to be a damp squib.

There is something called "an aggressor's advantage". The defender needs to win every battle, while an aggressor needs to win just once. It is better to be an aggressor and hunt down our enemies before they find a way into India.

 

[ezsasa]

Today is the era of hybrid terrorism. Physical separation does limit the US and allies' capability to deal direct damage to India, however these rich countries have got lot of money to throw at people who are willing to run their agenda by proxy. Take Ukraine's current political leadership for an example.

The Indian security establishment seems to have changed it's stance after the Amritpal Singh episode. The guy was abruptly parachuted into India from Belgium with a single agenda on his mind. He had received proper training to appear and talk in a particular manner (Bhinderanwale). He received wide coverage from the western media. Thankfully, he proved to be a damp squib.

There is something called "an aggressor's advantage". The defender needs to win every battle, while an aggressor needs to win just once. It is better to be an aggressor and hunt down our enemies before they find a way into India.

@Eagle Eye 's points were on disrupting official diplomatic relationship, my question is after spending three decades on building a relationship with U.S, why should GoI squander it on a nobody.

and more importantly, all the talk of fanboys wanting India to be a supa powa means nothing, if value given managing relationships is so low. relationship with U.S has reached where it is today, after quite a lot of hard work by MEA.

it's better to have an expectation of GoI's diplomatic corps managing problems with the priority that particular issue deserves. in other words, surely there are other ways to manage the same problem.

 

[ezsasa]

@ezsasa other than my 4th point, all others aren't over reaction.

Ban or Tax FCRA Ngos is good for our civilization & security.
Modi govt is against colonial, doesn't make sense India in CWG.
For canada cancelling trade talk, we should cut defence ties.

if you have any ideas on the lines of saap mare lathi bhi na tuthe, give those.
this convo is not about what GoI should do or not do, rather about you understanding how GoI operates.

 

[DingDong]

@Eagle Eye 's points were on disrupting official diplomatic relationship, my question is after spending three decades on building a relationship with U.S, why should GoI squander it on a nobody.

and more importantly, all the talk of fanboys wanting India to be a supa powa means nothing, if value given managing relationships is so low. relationship with U.S has reached where it is today, after quite a lot of hard work by MEA.

it's better to have an expectation of GoI's diplomatic corps managing problems with the priority that particular issue deserves. in other words, surely there are other ways to manage the same problem.

I don't disagree with you on the "diplomacy" part.

There is no need to "unnecessarily" squander the diplomatic capital. There is no need to take unnecessary aggressive decisions which have no real or long-standing impact. There is no need to make new enemies.

However, we need to deal with the current reality. We will be attacked and harmed by the status-quo powers even if we try to look or act harmless. they see the emerging India as a strategic threat.

China had to grow through this phase a decade ago, now is our turn. We can learn from China's experience.

 

[AnantS]

any separatist movement against India from cold war era will invariably have a western link, same is true for empty space movement as well. it will be true for almost all friends of soviets.

India's security establishment does not consider anglo-saxon countries as direct threats, that categorisation goes to pak and china, as they are our adversaries in the our neighbourhood.

coming back to my original response to @Eagle Eye , what benefit does not being at the negotiating table give us by over reacting?

I think he is asking for reaction inlieu of over action against India. US is slowly showing full fangs. Indian est does not see US as threat now, just as Chinese study group never saw China as threat even after doklam. Its only after Galwan things changed.

 

[ezsasa]

However, we need to deal with the current reality. We will be attacked and harmed by the status-quo powers even if we try to look or act harmless. they see the emerging India as a strategic threat.

China had to grow through this phase a decade ago, now is our turn. We can learn from China's experience.

state capacity to handle tough situations has to increase, that is a given. as doval says, increase weight and punch accordingly.

since one of the topics i watch over the years is how India is perceived from outside policy circles, harmless is not the word used to define us these days. that ship sailed after balakot strike, remaining lingering doubts were also gone after troop mobilisation that happened after 2020 chini clash.

 

[ezsasa]

I think he is asking for reaction inlieu of over action against India. US is showing full fangs. Indian est does notsee US as threat, just as Chinese study group never saw China as threat even after doklam. Its only after Galwan things changed.

over and above the convo we had a few weeks back on who exactly with in U.S establishment is involved, frankly i am not able to confidently guess how GoI would react. this is an unprecedented situation, no country accused an Indian govt official of orchestrating an assassination plot on foreign soil before these set of events.

 

[Cheran]

Wokes, Leftishits & Muslamists in USA are mighty upset at Biden for Israel.

To sate them (they sure are demanding a piece of flesh) their second enemy aka India under Modi needs to be shown its place or rather humiliated in the run up to the election (both US/India) & Biden admin needs votes.

US religious freedom report, articles in US puppet media, howling/yelping coolies are nothing new. "Bring Indian government official(s) who ordered (alleged) hit on US citizen" is something they can harp on/demand/put (increasing) pressure with the expectation of an Indian capitulation (bring extraneous actors like Pakistan/terrorism or withholding intel on a upcoming CCP incursion) (for added pressure). They calculate that this might cause a temporary setback to relations but nothing permanent.

 

[ezsasa]

I think he is asking for reaction inlieu of over action against India. US is slowly showing full fangs. Indian est does not see US as threat now, just as Chinese study group never saw China as threat even after doklam. Its only after Galwan things changed.

if we look at two events in the sequence of events starting with trudeau statement till now, indictment of that nikhil gupta in newyork and nikhil gupta filing a case in SC, we have to ponder of all the ways an assassination plot could have been revealed, why does legal process form the common thread. it could have been anything else, but it is not.

skipping all the juicy ways to sensationalise an international assassination plot, it ends up being a court room drama in two different countries?

 

[AnantS]

over and above the convo we had a few weeks back on who exactly with in U.S establishment is involved, frankly i am not able to confidently guess how GoI would react. this is an unprecedented situation, no country accused an Indian govt official of orchestrating an assassination plot on foreign soil before these set of events.

Oh its not new. This is,fav ploy to term someone authoritarian. In last decade we have Putin and SA Prince accused of same. You know which kowed which did not. What I see is India is imagining a Maryada Rekha in bilateral relations but US sees none in current admin - strikes below belt every time. Republicans dont seem they will come to power now under trump who could at fag end-course corrected dive in relationship. But it seems Democrats want to live end of cold war hey days at any cost. Whether that is feasible dream - who knows?

 

[AnantS]

if we look at two events in the sequence of events starting with trudeau statement till now, indictment of that nikhil gupta in newyork and nikhil gupta filing a case in SC, we have to ponder of all the ways an assassination plot could have been revealed, why does legal process form the common thread. it could have been anything else, but it is not.

skipping all the juicy ways to sensationalise an international assassination plot, it ends up being a court room drama in two different countries?

Saar court room drama is for India to react emotionally and forced to provide cover for him, which would have been drummed as admission. I was surprised court threw plea away. Even in Putin and SA case - IIRC they went via legal route to frame charges and pin blame on respective countries. West is methodolical this way, it uses institutions to give color of due prudence before making accusation. Other advantage for west is legal route, gives enough time for west to exert pressure and blackmail accused country for their pound of flesh for side deals.

 

[AnantS]