India to kick-off 5th-Gen. fighter aircraft-AMCA development project

[kstriya]

IAF wants mix of heavy and medium stealth aircraft, I think LCA mark 2 with stealth capabilities, AMCA and FGFA will be composition of Indian Airforce of the furure.

Hmmmm.. LCA Mk2 as stealth, I think due to its size it has very low rcs but still it is a 4.5th gen aircraft. So labelling this as stealth is overselling, we need to pursue another variant of LCA to cater the future requirement of a light stealth fighter aircraft just capitalize the existing development of AMCA and FGFA in LCA should do and a common engine in AMCA and LCA is possible..

 

[Gessler]

I would much prefer it if ADA/HAL/DRDO fully concentrate their indigenous fighter-development efforts at making the LCA Mk-II and the NLCA Mk-II a capable, refined & all-encompassing weapons platform for IAF & IN.

Any serious effort on the AMCA development should begin only after the LCA Mk-II achieves IOC certification. One thing to be remembered here is that it's best to decide on the components beforehand, and start building the plane around them thereafter.

The most critical component is, without a second thought, the powerplant. Would it be better to go for a US-supplied turbofan in lieu with Tejas? Like an uprated version of F-414EPE or something? Or rather go with the Russians and conduct a feasibility study for a smaller version of the Izdeliye 30 VCE intended for FGFA?

Let the agencies & the committees decide on such course-plotting matters first.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

I would much prefer it if ADA/HAL/DRDO fully concentrate their indigenous fighter-development efforts at making the LCA Mk-II and the NLCA Mk-II a capable, refined & all-encompassing weapons platform for IAF & IN.

Any serious effort on the AMCA development should begin only after the LCA Mk-II achieves IOC certification. One thing to be remembered here is that it's best to decide on the components beforehand, and start building the plane around them thereafter.

The most critical component is, without a second thought, the powerplant. Would it be better to go for a US-supplied turbofan in lieu with Tejas? Like an uprated version of F-414EPE or something? Or rather go with the Russians and conduct a feasibility study for a smaller version of the Izdeliye 30 VCE intended for FGFA?

Let the agencies & the committees decide on such course-plotting matters first.

We have already signed a deal for customized FE414S6-IN (tailor made for Indian climate) engine. This will go in Tejas Mk2.

IAF wants mix of heavy and medium stealth aircraft, I think LCA mark 2 with stealth capabilities, AMCA and FGFA will be composition of Indian Airforce of the furure.

So if we are going to phase out older planes then it will be MiG 29 first and Sukhoi 30MKI next, in that order, I guess? The kind of investment we have made in SU30MKI doesn't make it seem like they are going away for 20 more years. So the mix will be MiG 21 bison, Tejas, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Rafale, MiG 29, SU30, AMCA, FGFA

IAF is like an obsessed school kid who wants to collect all latest models of hot wheels toys. I think we aren't giving enough attention to our strategic airlift capability. The medium lift transport aircraft project with Russia has hit a roadblock, no new C17's are coming and we purchased CASA C295 even when efforts are being made to revive the HAL-Russia project. Someone is seriously trying to fill up all aircraft requirement with imports to prevent indigenous development.

 

[Gessler]

We have already signed a deal for customized FE414S6-IN (tailor made for Indian climate) engine. This will go in Tejas Mk2.

Ofcourse it is common knowledge that LCA Mk-II will have customized F414.

But what I was saying was w.r.t AMCA. Considering the fact that AMCA is designed as a twin-engine swingrole fighter (with supercruising as a desirable trait, although it has not been revealed what exactly IAF expects from AMCA, or if it expects anything at all!), we now have 4 possible, practical paths that we can take :

1) Keep it in line with LCA developments. This means a further modified/uprated (if deemed necessary) version of the F414 that's going on LCA Mk-II.

2) Keep it in line with our other fifth-generation gamble : FGFA. Conduct a feasibility study for a downscaled (w.r.t thrust-levels, weight & size. Not tech) version of the Izdeliye-30 turbofan which is a truly next-gen engine with Variable-Cycle technology, Plasma-arc ignition (doesn't need oxygen to start), among other NG technologies.

3) Go for customized variants of Snecma M88, ensures familiarity with Rafale Make-in-India program.

4) Make a stupid decision & go for Eurojet EJ200 or EJ220/230 versions.

R&D regarding indigenous K10+ and K11 Kaveri turbofans should continue, but should't be put on AMCA for operational purposes until fully matured. Let the companies learn all that they can from the F414, M88, uprated AL-31 and Izdeliye-30 licensed productions.

So if we are going to phase out older planes then it will be MiG 29 first and Sukhoi 30MKI next, in that order, I guess? The kind of investment we have made in SU30MKI doesn't make it seem like they are going away for 20 more years. So the mix will be MiG 21 bison, Tejas, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Rafale, MiG 29, SU30, AMCA, FGFA

At the very least you can be sure MiG-21 and Jaguar won't be in service by the time AMCA starts getting inducted into operational squadrons. By the time AMCA gains numbers, MiG-29 will be on it's way out followed by Mirage-2000.

I expect Su-30MKI to be starting the phase-out process in mid to late 2030s. The earliest-builds from 2002-2004 will go out first. Replaced by more FGFAs.

IAF is like an obsessed school kid who wants to collect all latest models of hot wheels toys. I think we aren't giving enough attention to our strategic airlift capability. The medium lift transport aircraft project with Russia has hit a roadblock, no new C17's are coming and we purchased CASA C295 even when efforts are being made to revive the HAL-Russia project. Someone is seriously trying to fill up all aircraft requirement with imports to prevent indigenous development.

If Indo-Russian MTA is cancelled, then that could mean either 40+ C-130Js (possibly produced by Tata under MII just like C295), or ~25 Airbus A400Ms. But my money is on additional C-130Js. The advantage here is that if Tata gets to make them in India, we can also turn TASL centers into the regional Asia/Middle-East MRO center for all C-130, C-130J and C-130J-30 planes in this neighbourhood.

Plus the chances for procuring something like KC-130 will go up. Cool bird if you want to refuel choppers mid-air.

 

[guru-dutt]

If we ever buy F18, or F16 or F35, I request all of you forum members to contribute some money and buy some good quality poison for me to drink.

well then get a bottle of cynide pretty soon sirji cause F35C is going to be there on INS Vishal along with tilt rotor version of E2D/C , EMALS and AAG and if congress opens the export of F22 raptor dont get surprised if india buys a couple of squads of that too

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

well then get a bottle of cynide pretty soon sirji cause F35C is going to be there on INS Vishal along with tilt rotor version of E2D/C , EMALS and AAG and if congress opens the export of F22 raptor dont get surprised if india buys a couple of squads of that too

In that case someone please give me the address of that IAF guy Arup Raha. I don't know how to define IAF anymore, is it Italian air force? is it International airforce? is it Israel aiforce? what's Indian about IAF?

 

[Srinivas_K]

We have already signed a deal for customized FE414S6-IN (tailor made for Indian climate) engine. This will go in Tejas Mk2.



So if we are going to phase out older planes then it will be MiG 29 first and Sukhoi 30MKI next, in that order, I guess? The kind of investment we have made in SU30MKI doesn't make it seem like they are going away for 20 more years. So the mix will be MiG 21 bison, Tejas, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Rafale, MiG 29, SU30, AMCA, FGFA

IAF is like an obsessed school kid who wants to collect all latest models of hot wheels toys. I think we aren't giving enough attention to our strategic airlift capability. The medium lift transport aircraft project with Russia has hit a roadblock, no new C17's are coming and we purchased CASA C295 even when efforts are being made to revive the HAL-Russia project. Someone is seriously trying to fill up all aircraft requirement with imports to prevent indigenous development.

Medium lift transport aircraft will be developed or bought from airbus C295 I guess, there are some agreement and JV's planned with Airbus, Boeing, Dassault, Russians etc...etc..., It will take atleast a decade for our industry to mature.

FGFA will take atleast 6 to 7 years to induct, 5th gen fighters are expensive to maintain so considerable number of 4.5 gen fighters will be there in IAF for the next 2 to 3 decades.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Medium lift transport aircraft will be developed or bought from airbus C295 I guess, there are some agreement and JV's planned with Airbus, Boeing, Dassault, Russians etc...etc..., It will take atleast a decade for our industry to mature.

FGFA will take atleast 6 to 7 years to induct, 5th gen fighters are expensive to maintain to considerable number of 4.5 gen fighters will be there in IAF for the next 2 to 3 decades.

If all of these things from equipment, to maintenance, spares, training, everything is being imported, why not import pilots as well? I mean, what's the use of calling them Indian pilots just because they happen to have brown skin? Where's the Indianness in their behavior? All their recommendations are of foreign aircraft, all their attempts are geared towards impeding domestic R&D.

If that is so, there's can't be anything more Western than this behavior. Might as well hire some Western pilots. They will fly the planes, and when it's time to upgrade it they will provide recommendations for latest model of Western aircraft, and keep doing that for generations to come. That's what IAF has been doing. If that's the job description then might as well hire Western pilots, no one needs these brown skinned Sahibs.

 

[Srinivas_K]

If all of these things from equipment, to maintenance, spares, training, everything is being imported, why not import pilots as well? I mean, what's the use of calling them Indian pilots just because they happen to have brown skin? Where's the Indianness in their behavior? All their recommendations are of foreign aircraft, all their attempts are geared towards impeding domestic R&D.

If that is so, there's can't be anything more Western than this behavior. Might as well hire some Western pilots. They will fly the planes, and when it's time to upgrade it they will provide recommendations for latest model of Western aircraft, and keep doing that for generations to come. That's what IAF has been doing. If that's the job description then might as well hire Western pilots, no one needs these brown skinned Sahibs.

IAF has no respect for national priorities, they just want to fly expensive imported planes bought with the tax money of the blood and sweat of Indian taxpayer. IAF is the only branch of military that has rejected any attempts to induct Indian systems.

This time around the deals that are happening are different, the foreign vendors must invest 50% in India and also produce their product in India under "Make in India".

There are startups that are gearing up to grab the opportunity in defense sector, so there are reasons to be optimistic.

 

[Srinivas_K]

If all of these things from equipment, to maintenance, spares, training, everything is being imported, why not import pilots as well? I mean, what's the use of calling them Indian pilots just because they happen to have brown skin? Where's the Indianness in their behavior? All their recommendations are of foreign aircraft, all their attempts are geared towards impeding domestic R&D.

If that is so, there's can't be anything more Western than this behavior. Might as well hire some Western pilots. They will fly the planes, and when it's time to upgrade it they will provide recommendations for latest model of Western aircraft, and keep doing that for generations to come. That's what IAF has been doing. If that's the job description then might as well hire Western pilots, no one needs these brown skinned Sahibs.

IAF has no respect for national priorities, they just want to fly expensive imported planes bought with the tax money of the blood and sweat of Indian taxpayer. IAF is the only branch of military that has rejected any attempts to induct Indian systems.

This time around the deals that are happening are different, the foreign vendors must invest 50% in India and also produce their product in India under "Make in India".

There are startups that are gearing up to grab the opportunity in defense sector, so there are reason to be optimistic.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Identify bottleneck first. The most important ne is 3D thrust victor engine, Rather than going to Europe and talk for 10 years, Prefer russia as the partner and gate their AL31 down graded version. There should not be a big problem in engine making. AMCA is a 2 engine plane so some what less reliable Russian engine will also do the job. Make 120 KN engines. if they found very reliable, we may use same in Naval LCA also. Or we may build a LCA MK3 stealth version like Gripen NG. We must have a reliable engine in our hand and that is a primary requirement. We can make AMCA A state of art plane like LCH and ALH.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

This time around the deals that are happening are different, the foreign vendors must invest 50% in India and also produce their product in India under "Make in India".

There are startups that are gearing up to grab the opportunity in defense sector, so there are reasons to be optimistic.

IAF has no respect for national priorities, they just want to fly expensive imported planes bought with the tax money of the blood and sweat of Indian taxpayer. IAF is the only branch of military that has rejected any attempts to induct Indian systems. They keep blaming Govt for not giving them better domestic alternative but it is IAFs job to sit down with DRDO, HAL and come up with an amenable solution. They had so many decades to do that. Governments come and go, institutions remain. And the IAF as an institution has comprehensively refused to co-operate with DRDO. Navy and Army have indegenous systems to a large extent. Poor army guys even use INSAS without complaining, but IAF twists its nose if asked to use Tejas. They do press conferences claiming that the 'government is forcing us to buy Tejas'.

I'd like to see some punitive action taken against those who stalled our Tejas project. This is necessary to set an example to future generations of military commanders that the nation cannot run by the whims and fancies of commanders. They have to fall in line and further the national policy, not their personal policy.

Did you notice how Avinash Chander was humiliated and thrown out? that is the kind of action we need. These people are sitting in high position and playing with nation's security. In soviet union, they used to give a fixed time to scientists to come up with a system, if they failed, Stalin shot them. Now, we don't have such barbaric system but that doesn't mean these commanders should take us for a ride. We must have time bound delivery or face punitive action. This Arup Raha guy has particular got on my nerves like a pungent, freshly chopped onion. When Parrikar said we could induct SU30 if Rafale deal is cancelled, this Arup took press conference to chastise the Defense minister in public saying that he doesn't understand difference between air superiority and miltirole. I am sure Parrikar said it deliberately to put pressure on negotiation, but this Arup guy had to embarrass the Def min instead of clarifying in private.

IAF should be split into 3 new forces : Space wing, close air support wing and conventional airforce. Give the command of space wing to a dedicated space commander, give air support wing under Army, and limit conventional airforce role to only two types of role (deep strike, and air superiority). No need for helicopters for IAF.

 

[Srinivas_K]

I agree with the IAF attitude and what you have written regarding them except splitting the IAF, but LCA or some Russian fighters are no match to western technologies, western fighter jets are at a different level because of superior avionics, sensors etc...etc....

When the french showed their passive target detection techniques and locked on to Su 30 MKI with out even switching on their radars .... IAF fell in love with Rafales.

When the arms lobbies show their product capability and performance, IAF gets distracted and want similar capabilities on domestic platforms. Add to that there is an increasing threat from China.

So Govt. and IAF found a middle path .i.e. make in India, JVs and tech. development in India. Since West or Russians do not give their technologies that easily, we need show them the market, buy them and form partnerships.

This is what is happening these days.

India is a Naval power and Navy will become the dominant branch of the three.

IAF has no respect for national priorities, they just want to fly expensive imported planes bought with the tax money of the blood and sweat of Indian taxpayer. IAF is the only branch of military that has rejected any attempts to induct Indian systems. They keep blaming Govt for not giving them better domestic alternative but it is IAFs job to sit down with DRDO, HAL and come up with an amenable solution. They had so many decades to do that. Governments come and go, institutions remain. And the IAF as an institution has comprehensively refused to co-operate with DRDO. Navy and Army have indegenous systems to a large extent. Poor army guys even use INSAS without complaining, but IAF twists its nose if asked to use Tejas. They do press conferences claiming that the 'government is forcing us to buy Tejas'.

I'd like to see some punitive action taken against those who stalled our Tejas project. This is necessary to set an example to future generations of military commanders that the nation cannot run by the whims and fancies of commanders. They have to fall in line and further the national policy, not their personal policy.

Did you notice how Avinash Chander was humiliated and thrown out? that is the kind of action we need. These people are sitting in high position and playing with nation's security. In soviet union, they used to give a fixed time to scientists to come up with a system, if they failed, Stalin shot them. Now, we don't have such barbaric system but that doesn't mean these commanders should take us for a ride. We must have time bound delivery or face punitive action. This Arup Raha guy has particular got on my nerves like a pungent, freshly chopped onion. When Parrikar said we could induct SU30 if Rafale deal is cancelled, this Arup took press conference to chastise the Defense minister in public saying that he doesn't understand difference between air superiority and miltirole. I am sure Parrikar said it deliberately to put pressure on negotiation, but this Arup guy had to embarrass the Def min instead of clarifying in private.

IAF should be split into 3 new forces : Space wing, close air support wing and conventional airforce. Give the command of space wing to a dedicated space commander, give air support wing under Army, and limit conventional airforce role to only two types of role (deep strike, and air superiority). No need for helicopters for IAF.

 

[Immanuel]

IAF has been the at heart of every one of it's own blunders since the last 12 years, as said many times before, leadership wise IAF is the least visionary force, it's top management has official migrated to the cloud, they can't guage ground realities anymore.

As for why IAF loves the Rafale, love is easy when you're floating on a cloud. Even a toothless lying hooker looks like Katrina Kaif. As for MKI, it's quite a RCS unfriendly aircraft, Rafale doesn't need its passive sensors to spot it at nearly max detection ranges. All that detection still didn't prevent the Rafale from being shot down by MKI in BVR modes and dogfights.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

IAF fell in love with Rafales.

Unfortunately we have to pay the price for their love, romance and honeymoon. No one's denying that the equipment is good quality but it is a pseudo-option. Meaning, it's only available as long as you don't need to use it. It's like Schrodinger's cat. Maybe our plane is a Mach 1 and French plane is Mach three, but when the war breaks out, if this Mach 3 plane is unavailable due to embargo from US then that option is neutralized. I hope you remember the 3 Billion $ Mistral ship deal between France and Russia that was stalled by US pressure.

That is why, it's not just the technical specifications that define the quality of a weapon system, but indegenization in itself is a quality in itself because it is linked to logistics and availability in times of war. The IAF can fly these Rafale during parades and show off, but when the time comes to take on Pakistan, the US will make sure that spares and weapons are denied and the entire fleet is grounded. The IAF lacks this long term vision, they just want to buy the best available toy, operational availability be damned.

 

[AnantS]

Rafael is needed because of simple fact, IAF needs itar free, non russian combat aircraft which is an alternative to Su-30 mki( which suffers from only 60% availability). LCA is short ranged, carries less payload compared to Rafael.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Rafael is needed because of simple fact, IAF needs itar free, non russian combat aircraft which is an alternative to Su-30 mki( which suffers from only 60% availability). LCA is short ranged, carries less payload compared to Rafael.

My suggestion is that Make lca mk2 of Navy First. That is long and of the size of Gripen NG with perfectly OK fitting ratio where the wave drag is minimum. It will have a lavcon at wing root also and shall have a 116 to 120 KN Engine. If we derive Mk2 of air force from it. It will become a very potent plane of Gripen NG class which shall carry around 6.0 tons of weight and fit into MMRCA role at a very cost effective rate. We shall have a top class AESA and Astra by that time with Mini Brahmos. This fighter will become a primier fighter of the that time and directly compete with Gripen NG and shall cost almost half. What we need is a proper plan, proper allocation of resources in terms of money and manpower along with a proper leadership. Navy can make it happen and idiots of airforce may be benefited out of that.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Unfortunately we have to pay the price for their love, romance and honeymoon. No one's denying that the equipment is good quality but it is a pseudo-option. Meaning, it's only available as long as you don't need to use it. It's like Schrodinger's cat. Maybe our plane is a Mach 1 and French plane is Mach three, but when the war breaks out, if this Mach 3 plane is unavailable due to embargo from US then that option is neutralized. I hope you remember the 3 Billion $ Mistral ship deal between France and Russia that was stalled by US pressure.

That is why, it's not just the technical specifications that define the quality of a weapon system, but indegenization in itself is a quality in itself because it is linked to logistics and availability in times of war. The IAF can fly these Rafale during parades and show off, but when the time comes to take on Pakistan, the US will make sure that spares and weapons are denied and the entire fleet is grounded. The IAF lacks this long term vision, they just want to buy the best available toy, operational availability be damned.

French are reliable suppliers.


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[guru-dutt]

French are reliable suppliers.


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but very very greedeee ....... jews aur marwaaree to sirf badnaam hai

 

[HariPrasad-1]

but very very greedeee ....... jews aur marwaaree to sirf badnaam hai

No body can meet our defense requirements as cheaply as Russians.