This has been taken entirely from BRF.
Steve_Davies
Active Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 30 Mar 2005, 13:06
Post12 Sep 2006, 20:34
Sorry, sallondon, but that would really surprise me. Why? Because according to contacts at Moody AFB (where Pakistani pilots attend IFF prior to going to the F-16 B-course), the majority of your guys who go there are passed simply because their instructors are given no other choice.
To quote directly, most of the Pakistani students that graduate from IFF would have failed the course had they been American studs:bounce:. I think that speaks volumes.
Steve_Davies
Active Member
Posts: 103
Joined: 30 Mar 2005, 13:06
Unread post13 Sep 2006, 20:22
Blain
Looks like I've yanked your chain. Let me quantify and qualify the sources for my post.
Firstly, I cannot name my sources for obvious reasons. However, I can tell you that the sentiment echoed in my post was related to me by several experienced instructors *and* a squadron commander. Statements like
"the majority of Pakistani students in the class cannot grasp fighter fndamentals", "
we have Pakistani students that are close to being a danger to fly with", and "
if this student was an American he would be washed out and sent to a multi-engine MWS" were frequently heard. If you want to argue that this can't possibly be true, then that's your choice. Personally, I believe that to do so would be akin to pissing in the wind. I've visited IFF several times, I have conducted official and off-the-record interviews, and in both tape-on and tape-off scenarios the message comes across loud and clear.
Secondly, although the Pakistani students at IFF are graded using exactly the same system as the US studs, the criteria for them to pass or hook are ride are dramatically relaxed. So, whereas a US stud my receive a grade of 4 (out of 5; where 1 is exceptional, and 5 is unsafe) and have to refly a sortie, a Pakistani student may receive a 3 (and pass) for flying to exactly the same standard. As I said in my original post,
the IPs are under clear instructions to ensure that the students from Pakistan graduate IFF
. Again, argue with this if you like, but that's straight from the mouths of the guys at the sharp end.
Finally, you maintain that the Pakistani pilots do not go straight to the F-16 from IFF. That may be true for the most part, but I understand that in recent years some guys have gone straight to the jet. PAF is not my area of expertise, but that is the information passed to me by IPs.
I'm not going to get into a pissing war with you: that's what I've been told, and that's what I am inclined to believe. Set this all as a backdrop to the standard of Pakistani Viper pilots, and I don't think that the original poster's assertion that Pakistani VIper drivers are the best in the world can possibly hold true.
If you’re an IFF IP and think that this is all BS, then PM me your name and .mil email address and I’ll ask my sources why their experience differs so greatly from yours.
Meathook
Elite 3K
Posts: 3321
Joined: 13 May 2004, 23:37
Post13 Sep 2006, 02:18
I am not against boasting, been guilty of that myself at times but that was a rather large boast, really off the wall considering the audience he was addressing but having said that, I fully understand national pride, we all need it and thrive off of it from time to time.
Spend time at Luke (training base of many foreign pilots); at that time I was a flight chief for older F-16's training squadron that provided the vehicles for their training. These folks and many other nations tried like hell to learn to fly the aircraft. Of course this is no easy tasking, takes time, dedication and study, then you do it over and over again until you get it right.
The write ups (gigs) produced by many student pilots were to say...bogus to say the least (many are expected but these guys went way overboard not understanding the aircraft). But the constant ground aborting of aircraft (where no real problem existed) coupled with many near misses, over G'ed aircraft, number of pilots that outright failed or dropped out of the program was staggering in 1985 and 1986.
Granted it was not just this country that had its problems but this country led the pack in a negative way. They appeared to lack discipline, drive and real motivation picking up the system technology in the early years of my involvement.:biggrin2: Then we accomplished numerous deployments to their location (in country) teaching their mechanics the skills required to maintain the aircraft, poor mechanics, poor training motivation and lack of understanding all led to many failed efforts.
Recently working the foreign military sales side of the house, F-16 aircraft regeneration efforts and long term system sustainment, the same problems (lack of understanding) seem to surface again and again. Many other issues I will not discuss openly but hopefully, you get my drift here.
The limited combat skills they displayed in past aerial engagements and weapon systems tactics in older version aircraft have not been satisfactory enough to gain my approval of their flying capabilities, 
that is why I provided my hearse comments to the person that made the out of line boast.
Side note, I have over two hundred hours in F-16Bs and D’s, have been a corporate pilot for ten years now and served twenty six years in the USAF working and flying in numerous fighter aircraft (F4 Tow Target Operator in 1975 and 1976 at Edwards AFB). So I think I can speak from experience in both training and the operational side of the house.
These folks have a very long way to go to get anywhere close to the boast that was made. As you mentioned, technology is a major factor in both maintaining and operating this weapons system, they need to burn the midnight oil quite a bit more for my salute to be given in earnest.
