India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[Cola]

@Arundo,
it's you who said EF being an orgy of shortcomings and a bottomless money pit, only to admit Rafale being more expensive in Swiss??

Then you used 5 nations' supposed performance testing as some kind of a proof of Rafale's performance superiority, when there's none and the footage from Swiss suggests quite the opposite.

Ok, we have another lobbyist here not willing to admit that EF performed worse than Rafale in AF evaluations...

Further, when confronted with the fact that actual evaluations come in form of books rather than a single chart, you still push for single non-dimensional figure to somehow try to prove Rafale's superiority.
Again, it doesn't work that way, not even toward politicians/public, no matter what you think or believe.
If it did, JOUST would have sold hundreds of EFs even before IOC.

...(since IAF prefers Rafale).

Where did you get the idea, the IAF prefers Rafale?

Funny you call me a lobbyist, but from what I read here you sound much more like one...
So, what's the point of your posting here?

 

[Koovie]

Grande Strategy

hopefully true........................

 

[weg]

A word of comfort is that the machines are highly expensive to buy and maintain and perhaps a degree more sophisticated than Indian engineers are used to handling. Coupled with a longer delivery timeline, Pakistan or China are unlikely to see these birds operational in significant number until at least 2016. Nevertheless, we have to hand it to the Indians that they have in all probability made the right choice.

They can live in hope, on my degree course (Control Engineering) the two highest scoring engineers were Indians.

 

[SpArK]

Countdown To MMRCA?

We're square in the time window now for an announcement on the M-MRCA competition. The last ten days have been thick with rumours of a Eurofighter victory (the company has wisely stayed away from comment). It's an incredibly delicate situation now. Last night, Reuters Aero tweeted saying the two parties were called for a meeting, but that it was unclear if this pertained to a decision or an update. The tweet appeared to draw its essence from an earlier tweet in the day by Newsx defence editor Vishal Thapar, who claimed that only Eurofighter representatives had been called for a meeting. He similarly wondered in his tweet if this had been for a "verdict or clarification".

Now, unless this meeting was hardcore top-secret, my information is that no representatives of either company were summoned to any meeting yesterday (Thursday, Jan 12). My sources at both vendor companies and the MoD said there was no meeting, but that it was expected "soon". But this is hardly important. Assuming that the meeting didn't in fact happen, it is after all expected to happen at any time.

The sense I get is the government has until Republic Day (Jan 26) to declare the lowest bidder -- if it wants to, that is. After that, the country enters a phase of an elaborate series of crucial state elections that bring with them their own political sensitivities and code of conduct guidelines. The sense I get, therefore, is that if the government intends to make an announcement this month, it has to be in the next 10-odd days. Otherwise, it could drift for months as the establishment's mind gets diverted. As always, stay tuned.

Photo / Shiv Aroor


Live fist

 

[weg]

You can't compare the old Tornados to the Rafale.

When it comes to ground attack, you can. You aren't going to be maneuvering at low altitude with a big bomb load and many aircraft could do the job dynamically.

 

[arundo]

@Arundo,
it's you who said EF being an orgy of shortcomings and a bottomless money pit, only to admit Rafale being more expensive in Swiss??

Then you used 5 nations' supposed performance testing as some kind of a proof of Rafale's performance superiority, when there's none and the footage from Swiss suggests quite the opposite.


Further, when confronted with the fact that actual evaluations come in form of books rather than a single chart, you still push for single non-dimensional figure to somehow try to prove Rafale's superiority.
Again, it doesn't work that way, not even toward politicians/public, no matter what you think or believe.
If it did, JOUST would have sold hundreds of EFs even before IOC.


Where did you get the idea, the IAF prefers Rafale?

Funny you call me a lobbyist, but from what I read here you sound much more like one...
So, what's the point of your posting here?

Pls start reading my posts correctly. I said that Rafale was the most expensive in CH, but that it was a little less expensive in most of the other cases. I do not know what's the reason, but I know that the Swiss bid included the use of French facilities and much more for the Swiss Airforce. Of course the price depends on the calculation and concessions you will make. I said that the Rafale program was less expensive that the EF program and that the 286 Rafale in the French budget account for the same amount as the 160 EF in the British budget (both are total program costs until phase-out and include VAT, at least in France). This can be verified easily. EF unit costs exploded by 75% in UK. You have to add the costs of the other 3 countries and I know that the German contribution only to R&D was around 4,5 billion € a couple of years ago. I think that EF can become cheaper than Rafale if f.ex. it is sold to India, as India will contribute to total R&D costs.

If I was a lobbyist, I would "recite" what Dassault is writing in its flyers and catalogues. Neither I am from Dassault nor I purchased Dassault, Snecma, Sagem or Thales shares. I only said that there is no evidence that EF will perform better in every single field (or even overall), as we only have claims and Rafale was higher rated by several Airforces so far. And this is what some ignore or are not ready to accept.

 

[p2prada]

When it comes to ground attack, you can. You aren't going to be maneuvering at low altitude with a big bomb load and many aircraft could do the job dynamically.

How low do you think aircraft fly when bombing?

Nobody drops bombs from 10000m. It's all low level flying. That's why there are terms like hi-hi-hi, hi-lo-hi and lo-lo-lo.

There is a huge difference in the subsystems carried by both aircraft.

 

[Patriot]

Countdown To MMRCA?

We're square in the time window now for an announcement on the M-MRCA competition. The last ten days have been thick with rumours of a Eurofighter victory (the company has wisely stayed away from comment). It's an incredibly delicate situation now. Last night, Reuters Aero tweeted saying the two parties were called for a meeting, but that it was unclear if this pertained to a decision or an update. The tweet appeared to draw its essence from an earlier tweet in the day by Newsx defence editor Vishal Thapar, who claimed that only Eurofighter representatives had been called for a meeting. He similarly wondered in his tweet if this had been for a "verdict or clarification". Now, unless this meeting was hardcore top-secret, my information is that no representatives of either company were summoned to any meeting yesterday (Thursday, Jan 12). My sources at both vendor companies and the MoD said there was no meeting, but that it was expected "soon". But this is hardly important. Assuming that the meeting didn't in fact happen, it is after all expected to happen at any time.

The sense I get is the government has until Republic Day (Jan 26) to declare the lowest bidder -- if it wants to, that is. After that, the country enters a phase of an elaborate series of crucial state elections that bring with them their own political sensitivities and code of conduct guidelines. The sense I get, therefore, is that if the government intends to make an announcement this month, it has to be in the next 10-odd days. Otherwise, it could drift for months as the establishment's mind gets diverted. As always, stay tuned.

 

[vanadium]

When it comes to ground attack, you can. You aren't going to be maneuvering at low altitude with a big bomb load and many aircraft could do the job dynamically.

Re. Originally Posted by p2prada
You can't compare the old Tornados to the Rafale.

Both Rafale and Tornado flying very low in TFR Mode (Terrain Following Radar) the last leg of their covert attack mission against presumably high value / heavily defended targets, at typically 540knots, loaded with several tons of draggy weapons have not only to contend with a layer of SAM and some trash fire, but also with airborne defence.

Both a/c are from a physics point of view in a very vulnerable situation, as they are heavy, very draggy and in a comparatively low energy status (speed and altitude) compared with the Flankers at 30,000ft, loaded with A-A missile and vectored to the intruders by an AEW and/or their own look-down / shoot-down radars.

Both aircraft are basically dead ducks. Equally dead.

BTW, it is not only Tornadoes that performed pretty badly in TFR attacks during the opening phase of Desert Storm 1.
The USAF experience with the F-111 in Vietnam was a disaster, which accelerated the demise of that aircraft.

On the F-111´s operational employment of the TF Radar let me quote Ben Rich:

"But the first F-111s used in Vietnam took tremendous losses because their TFR, which allowed them to skim over treetops in the dead of night, acted like a powerful beacon for enemy radar to home in on."

 

[vanadium]

When it comes to ground attack, you can. You aren't going to be maneuvering at low altitude with a big bomb load and many aircraft could do the job dynamically.

Then we will have only air superiority fighters by 2025. MKI, Mirage-2000, Mig-29, EF-2000 and PAKFA along with some old Jaguars for DPS. So, you see why IAF may prefer Rafale.



Even AMCA will be multirole, at least according to what IAF and ADA have mentioned till date. Earlier ADA said it would be a strike aircraft and this changed before preliminary studies started. Hopefully it should be equivalent to the Rafale in roles, except for the 5th gen tag. If that happens then this could be a reason for EF being shortlisted.

Don't worry though. If EF was shortlisted IAF possibly thinks the strike capability is enough. More importantly, IAF has little part to play in what happens next. Everything hangs on MoFs decision. They are unfortunately known to cancel deals which they don't like, the A-330 MRTT tender comes to mind for the latest cancellation.

When you load up the Su-30MKI with air-to-surface weapons it becomes a potent strike machine with a superb payload-range performance. (H)

The same can be said of the Typhoon, but in a different payload-range category. (M) In-flight refueling is there to extend its reach. Bigger external fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks are options, should one want to take full advantage of the machine´s versatility.

The Mirage 2000 can be used for A-G too, but it is certainly not an air superiority platform to use against the enemy high end fighters.

So the Jaguar is not alone! It is in very good and powerful company.
(BTW, Typhoon has taken up the Jaguar´s strike role in the RAF. It is clearly by far more capable in A-G in whatever metrics: payload, range, kinematics quality, sensors, EW suite, self-escort capability,...)

I guess Typhoon and Rafale are in the finals because they scored more than the rest of the pack against the RFP parameters and in the flight trials. I also guess that both aircraft did not comply 100% with the requirement. It never happens, unless the RFP is a tricky tailor-made job for a preferred candidate (it happens from time to time!). It would seem to me that both a/c were able to satisfy the IAF about the non compliances.

So let´s wait and see for the MoF decision.

I am starting to get curious...

 

[anoop_mig25]

And i am gettimg bored now

 

[bhramos]

 

[SpArK]

No decision yet for $11 billion India fighter jet deal

India has no timetable for the hotly awaited decision to award its $11 billion fighter jet deal, a defence ministry official said on Friday, and he denied reports that the government had contacted the constructors.

Two European contenders are left in the race to sell India 126 fighter jets, in what will be one of the world's biggest arms contracts, and help revamp the country's creaking defence equipment in line with its rising global clout.

"We don't know when the announcement is going to happen, so there is no point speculating when it will happen," the official, who did not wish to be named, told Reuters.

Still in the fray are Eurofighter, which makes the Typhoon fighter jet and is a four-nation consortium of EADS representing Germany and Spain, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica

Their competitor is France's Dassault which makes the Rafale plane. American, Russian and Swedish bids were rejected in April last year.
Earlier this week some sections of the Indian media carried a report that the Eurofighter Typhoon may have emerged as the lowest bidder and that representatives of the contractors would have been called by the defence ministry on Thursday.

The official said that no representative of any company had been called by the government.

The government opened the bids of the two competitors in November 2011. It was expected to take about two to three weeks to pick a winner.

No decision yet for $11 billion India fighter jet deal | The Asian Age

 

[pankaj nema]

Will the GOI have any DECENT excuse to make after 31 January if by this date a winner is not announced

 

[SpArK]

Internal MMRCA meeting at MoD yesterday afternoon. No reps of either company invited. Possible meeting to review final tally.

Shiv aroor tweet

 

[p2prada]

@Vanadium

All strike missions carry a greater amount of risk than CAP, escort or support missions. It does not matter which aircraft.

MKIs, Jaguars and MRCA work as an air combat group. Some will be on strike, some as escort, some for stand off jamming with AWACS and tanker support and a nice big ship or command center at the back. There will be men on the ground spotting enemy take offs and landings from bases too. So, it's all integrated nowadays.

Rafale is simply a ground attack aircraft first and air superiority next.

 

[addiction]

its all waste...had we given that amount to Rus and bought out complete rights of MKI + AESA tech, we would have become more self reliant in defence aviation sector...we already ve TOT for Jaquar, Mirage, MKI...but still cant product LCA...what is the use of such TOT???? just buy out the Tech and if it is not possible simply start reverse engineering like China...enough of this buyer-seller relationship!

 

[vanadium]

@Vanadium

All strike missions carry a greater amount of risk than CAP, escort or support missions. It does not matter which aircraft.

MKIs, Jaguars and MRCA work as an air combat group. Some will be on strike, some as escort, some for stand off jamming with AWACS and tanker support and a nice big ship or command center at the back. There will be men on the ground spotting enemy take offs and landings from bases too. So, it's all integrated nowadays.

Rafale is simply a ground attack aircraft first and air superiority next.

I guess most people will converge on this one.

 

[p2prada]

I guess most people will converge on this one.

???

its all waste...had we given that amount to Rus and bought out complete rights of MKI + AESA tech, we would have become more self reliant in defence aviation sector...we already ve TOT for Jaquar, Mirage, MKI...but still cant product LCA...what is the use of such TOT???? just buy out the Tech and if it is not possible simply start reverse engineering like China...enough of this buyer-seller relationship!

We don't have ToT for Jaguar and Mirage-2000. We received full MKI ToT only recently, I guess 3 years ago. ToT is meant to guarantee the aircraft's survival throughout it's life. Contracts do not allow the use of bought technology in your own R&D.

Reverse engineering is not easy and the end product is not of the same generation as the rival's product which has evolved. The Chinese have successfully re-engineered the Flanker but they are yet to reach MKI's capabilities, let alone Su-35s. Let's not forget the MKIs configuration happened in 1996 and was way better than any American jet at the time. But today every modern western jet surpasses the MKI in technology(upgraded Super Hornet, EF, Rafale, F-15E, maybe the F-16 Block 60 but it is still of lesser capability than MKI). In a few years we will have the Super MKI and the Chinese will be hard pressed to catch up again.

 

[addiction]

???



We don't have ToT for Jaguar and Mirage-2000. We received full MKI ToT only recently, I guess 3 years ago. ToT is meant to guarantee the aircraft's survival throughout it's life. Contracts do not allow the use of bought technology in your own R&D.

Reverse engineering is not easy and the end product is not of the same generation as the rival's product which has evolved. The Chinese have successfully re-engineered the Flanker but they are yet to reach MKI's capabilities, let alone Su-35s. Let's not forget the MKIs configuration happened in 1996 and was way better than any American jet at the time. But today every modern western jet surpasses the MKI in technology(upgraded Super Hornet, EF, Rafale, F-15E, maybe the F-16 Block 60 but it is still of lesser capability than MKI). In a few years we will have the Super MKI and the Chinese will be hard pressed to catch up again.

If you check the HAL site, you ll get to know what they ve been doing...when I say reverse engineering, I didnt mean the frame...I am more interested in engine...and contractors are not allowed but using their engineers, we can get our job done!