India Needs More Aircraft Carriers But Not At The Cost Of Key Strike Elements

busesaway

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The Army is the largest arm of our Armed Forces for a reason. Our primary threat perception compass points West, and then North. If we expend all our efforts intervening in the middle east, who is going to protect the Motherland?
I'm talking about South India! I don't think there's any need for land based military in South India. It's better to have navies take over all army and air force operations.
 

Adioz

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I'm talking about South India! I don't think there's any need for land based military in South India. It's better to have navies take over all army and air force operations.
Maybe we will see that happen once we get theater commands. I suspect that the commander for Southern and ANC commands would be an Admiral.
 

bipin

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Maybe we will see that happen once we get theater commands. I suspect that the commander for Southern and ANC commands would be an Admiral.
Realistically speaking will we get theatre commands ?

US has divided entire world into theatres, which are huge in size. China has done the same within the country. But India has a third the land of China, and theatres will be much smaller. Army and Navy have major roles to play and will definitely have theatres where their heads will lead. Air Chief Marshal wont be as lucky, just like in US theatre command Chief of Air Staff is not a combatant commander, but generals and admirals are.

It's no surprise that Air Force opposes it. They dont want to lose autonomy. Despite the differences I feel they should accept theatre command, they will omnipresent in any theatre.
 

Adioz

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Realistically speaking will we get theatre commands ?

US has divided entire world into theatres, which are huge in size. China has done the same within the country. But India has a third the land of China, and theatres will be much smaller. Army and Navy have major roles to play and will definitely have theatres where their heads will lead. Air Chief Marshal wont be as lucky, just like in US theatre command Chief of Air Staff is not a combatant commander, but generals and admirals are.

It's no surprise that Air Force opposes it. They dont want to lose autonomy. Despite the differences I feel they should accept theatre command, they will omnipresent in any theatre.
Yes we will get theater commands. The process has already be initiated in the Combined Commanders Conference early this year.

IMHO, we will have 5 commands.
My guess on what the theater commands will look like:-
  • Northern Command (or Himalayan command) [J&K, to Sikkim (excluding Sikkim)] <Army commander>
  • Eastern Command [North East + Sikkim+Bangladesh] <Army commander>
  • Western Command [International border with Pakistan] <Army Commander>
  • Southern Command [Peninsula+Andaman Nicobar+Lakshadweep] <Navy Commander>
  • Central Command [Strategic Reserve and Out of Area Operations] <Air Force Commander>
 

bipin

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Yes we will get theater commands. The process has already be initiated in the Combined Commanders Conference early this year.

IMHO, we will have 5 commands.
My guess on what the theater commands will look like:-
  • Northern Command (or Himalayan command) [J&K, to Sikkim (excluding Sikkim)] <Army commander>
  • Eastern Command [North East + Sikkim+Bangladesh] <Army commander>
  • Western Command [International border with Pakistan] <Army Commander>
  • Southern Command [Peninsula+Andaman Nicobar+Lakshadweep] <Navy Commander>
  • Central Command [Strategic Reserve and Out of Area Operations] <Air Force Commander>
Agree with most commands, but I see that theatres are based on land which is a drawback for navy. Here are the core 7 that should be in IMHO:
  1. North Command (Himalayan) J&K - Nepal - Sikkim
  2. North-West Command (Thar) Punjab - Rajasthan - Gujarat
  3. North-East Command (Purvotar) Seven sister states, Bangladesh, Bhutan
  4. Central Command (Deccan)
  5. Arabian Sea Command (West Coast) including Lakshadweep
  6. Bay of Bengal Command (East Coast) including Andaman and Nicobar
  7. South Command (Indian Ocean)
What do you think ?
 

aditya10r

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Agree with most commands, but I see that theatres are based on land which is a drawback for navy. Here are the core 7 that should be in IMHO:
  1. North Command (Himalayan) J&K - Nepal - Sikkim
  2. North-West Command (Thar) Punjab - Rajasthan - Gujarat
  3. North-East Command (Purvotar) Seven sister states, Bangladesh, Bhutan
  4. Central Command (Deccan)
  5. Arabian Sea Command (West Coast) including Lakshadweep
  6. Bay of Bengal Command (East Coast) including Andaman and Nicobar
  7. South Command (Indian Ocean)
What do you think ?
From where did you get Nepal,bangladesh and bhutan in here???????..................................
 

bipin

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From where did you get Nepal,bangladesh and bhutan in here???????..................................
Theatres dont have to be in the same country. US command theatres cover entire world.

Bhutan has an overseas military base. Nepal and Bangladesh do cooperate militarily. It makes sense to have them in theatres so that you can plan for contingencies.
 

busesaway

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Realistically speaking will we get theatre commands ?

US has divided entire world into theatres, which are huge in size. China has done the same within the country. But India has a third the land of China, and theatres will be much smaller. Army and Navy have major roles to play and will definitely have theatres where their heads will lead. Air Chief Marshal wont be as lucky, just like in US theatre command Chief of Air Staff is not a combatant commander, but generals and admirals are.

It's no surprise that Air Force opposes it. They dont want to lose autonomy. Despite the differences I feel they should accept theatre command, they will omnipresent in any theatre.
South Indians were historically more orientated towards the sea due to the lack of a land border and the constant shitfighting happening in North India. It's actually part of our culture to be more seaworthy and support the navy and merchants.



Since South India doesn't have any use for land based military, and since North India is predominantly preoccupied with land based wars, why not make South India the home of India's navy?

The entire military force of South India could be replaced by the navy, while North India retains its army and air force; South India would be responsible for providing naval forces for the North, while North India will be responsible for providing armed forced for the South.

A gendamerie would be responsible for riot policing, VIP security, counter-terrorism operations, policing in militant areas, coastguard, search and rescue, overseas peacekeeping, and special operations.

A navy would take control of all other military duties. I would suggest that India has around two or three supercarriers to be able to project its armed forces to distant lands around the globe, while its numerous destroyers/frigates should be able to accommodate three aircraft.

This would make the military in Southern India, which only really has naval wars to fight, far more efficient at fighting its external threats. It could literally become the coastguard and naval headquarters for India, as tradition would say considering South India was always more orientated towards the sea.



I think its important that India has strong anti-submarine equipment (I suggest aircraft carrier based ASW helicopters) and a few destroyers/frigates equipped with aircraft that can fight in the South China Sea and Arabian Sea.

The majority of India's wars appear to be on its northern front, against the Middle East primarily, but also a moderate threat from China.



I also think it would be progressive if India entered into a strong military alliance with Sri Lanka in order to counter the threat from China and Islamists; we can cooperate on naval affairs and reduce Sri Lanka's military debt.
 

bipin

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The entire military force of South India could be replaced by the navy, while North India retains its army and air force; South India would be responsible for providing naval forces for the North, while North India will be responsible for providing armed forced for the South
It is these kind of sweeping changes that armed forces are resisting. If it is not broken why try to fix it. I agree that we need more naval bases/shipbuilding ports but why replace all army bases in South.

A gendamerie would be responsible for riot policing, VIP security, counter-terrorism operations, policing in militant areas, coastguard, search and rescue, overseas peacekeeping, and special operations.
Army is equipped/prepared mostly for war-time scenarios. Police is completely pathetic in any state. For the tasks you mention we have CAPF. They get overlooked and not used to the full potential, in my opinion. Politics can get in the way of their duties.

I also think it would be progressive if India entered into a strong military alliance with Sri Lanka in order to counter the threat from China and Islamists; we can cooperate on naval affairs and reduce Sri Lanka's military debt.
Not just Sri Lanka but all other SAARC countries except Pakistan. It is only when China comes knocking do we move into action. We should have more active military coperation. This brings stability in the region and improves security for all.
 

busesaway

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It is these kind of sweeping changes that armed forces are resisting. If it is not broken why try to fix it. I agree that we need more naval bases/shipbuilding ports but why replace all army bases in South.
Because we don't need those army bases. Why does Switzerland need a navy?

South India would be better off sending it's land based equipment to North India. It can then focus entirely on naval operations.

Army is equipped/prepared mostly for war-time scenarios. Police is completely pathetic in any state. For the tasks you mention we have CAPF. They get overlooked and not used to the full potential, in my opinion. Politics can get in the way of their duties.
The gendamerie are a sort of paramilitary. They are essentially "armed police" that carry out more tough operations that the police are too weak to handle. I think we should have a federation of state-owned gendamerie forces.

Not just Sri Lanka but all other SAARC countries except Pakistan. It is only when China comes knocking do we move into action. We should have more active military coperation. This brings stability in the region and improves security for all.
Sri Lanka currently has a lot of debt due to its military expenditure. But its a small country so its debt is actually quite small for India to pay.
 

bipin

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Because we don't need those army bases. Why does Switzerland need a navy?

South India would be better off sending it's land based equipment to North India. It can then focus entirely on naval operations.
Your analogy is incorrect. Swiss may not have navy because they dont need it. So landlocked north India does not need a naval base. But Italy still has army right ? US has army bases in Hawaii. Before you impose your conclusions, kindly tell me why you dont need army bases in South India.
 

Filtercoffee

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Your analogy is incorrect. Swiss may not have navy because they dont need it. So landlocked north India does not need a naval base. But Italy still has army right ? US has army bases in Hawaii. Before you impose your conclusions, kindly tell me why you dont need army bases in South India.
As I see it India has become a naval force only and completely sustained by the Navy only, in line with other WW2 Allied countries (some of them I hope); And in line with covertly showing solidarity with each other for a complete win, over the as you might say, 'former Axis'.
 
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scatterStorm

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Well i believe india needs at least 4 aircraft carriers by 2045 and max upto 6,but there is nothing that can beat a silent undersea fleet of deadly diesel/aip attack subs.................
The US has already preempted that move.

Check the treaty we signed when Obama visited India which makes it obligatory for India to procure a certain % of its energy needs strictly via American Shael gas. So, even if cheaper oil is available, the US has made sure that no one benefits from it at their expense. With a combination of nuclear energy, shael gas, renewable energy, coal based generators, hydroelectric dams, and the introduction of electric vehicles the reliance on oil itself will reduce drastically, plus India has made a tie up with Russia recently and acquired some oil field there and oil has been found off the Myanmar coast, so we will have another source of oil and we are at the last stage of our Thorium reactors.

Bad days ahead for Saudi Arabia. After all, if you are a talent-less medieval civilization whose only contribution to the world is stone pelting and oil, how long is your rein going to last?

The predicted oil reserves are at best will run down by 150 years(it could be propaganda by OPEC nations too). Certainly the EHMs placed during the 80s realized that the milking cow(middle east) will soon run out of milk.

When Nixon tried his best to make OPEC nations to go on back-foot (due to Israel-arab war), the OPEC nation threatened to sell oil at cheap prices, at that time US was shocked, but instead of boiling over it, they formed a clever foreign policy on Energy and Resources to provide tech and hardware and infrastructure, in this way they get dependent on it, remember FDI in UAE alone is almost 60%, forms the backbone of it.

They are trying there best to gain as much experience in military technology and acquiring hardware. The ill effects are still can be observed in Yemen where there brutality is well known, this is what happens when you give arms to ill-trained man with fundamentalist ideologies still at there helm.
 
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scatterStorm

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The only problem is a lack of political will power to use Naval coercion. IMHO, only strong leaders like Indira Gandhi and Narendra Modi have the gall to engage in military coercion. We have ACs since decades. They have yet to leave our own waters. If China manages to put this new carrier on a tour of the IOR, we would have lost the war of perception in our own backyard. Thankfully, the Chinese are too occupied with USN and SCS to bother.
Point I am trying to make is, our ACs buy us influence if we use them for intimidation. We want to sit at the global high table, yet most of our leaders start spitting out Gandhian virtues of non-violence the minute we have an oppertunity. I fail to see why INS Vikramaditya has only ever visited Sri Lanka, and not Kenya or Indonesia or even Australia or Japan? Why is it not a part of exercises like Malabar? The JMSDF is sending Izumo to IOR this year. Look at the muscles a self-proclaimed soft state is flexing with a ship that has the fraction of the capabilities our flagship has, and in our backyard too (though its not to our detriment).
I am of the opinion that the Navy is planning 3 Vishal class carriers. But these will come when we have the required amount of Naval tonnage invested in escort ships and subs. We will have enough time to work on a good design and get funds ready till 2027. Then the IN will jump in headlong into it, and we will have 5 carriers by 2035. Then in 2036, we will still be having this conversation as to why the world fears one American carrier in the IOR, but not 5 Indian ones. Modi is not going to be a Prime Minister that year. I hope its atleast someone with balls.

Edit: I would absolutely love to be proved wrong. I hope that in the year 2036 we have leaders on Raisina hill that give the Indian Navy the orders to station a CBG permanently in the Horn of Africa for anti-piracy ops :)
I think our Navy has a long-term goal, right now there goal is to build support vessels that would later support future ACs. Which is a good move IMO, we can't have a ACs who has no arms and legs to supports itself.

Playing hard balls is not the only thing on the table, economy should be capable enough to scream to the policy makers that yes we have some.
 

bipin

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As I see it India has become a naval force only and completely sustained by the Navy only, in line with other WW2 Allied countries (some of them I hope); And in line with covertly showing solidarity with each other for a complete win, over the as you might say, 'former Axis'.
Your reply is too confusing. India's naval force is obviously sustained by navy, who else? Navy is in line to show solidarity to whom? How does it answer my question to @busesaway .
 

Filtercoffee

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Your reply is too confusing. India's naval force is obviously sustained by navy, who else? Navy is in line to show solidarity to whom? How does it answer my question to @busesaway .
I was speaking about the navy support and fight for trade and finance without which our country won't sustain its current rise. As shown to us ofcourse.
 

Armand2REP

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Since South India doesn't have any use for land based military, and since North India is predominantly preoccupied with land based wars, why not make South India the home of India's navy?

The entire military force of South India could be replaced by the navy, while North India retains its army and air force; South India would be responsible for providing naval forces for the North, while North India will be responsible for providing armed forced for the South.
If China was able to make a breakthrough in the North then there would be nothing in the South to stop them. It is a layered defence strategy used by the Soviet Union. If they had everything on their Western border they would be speaking German today. There are also economic and political factors to place military bases as they generate revenue for cash strapped governments.
 

Kunal Biswas

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It cannot be done but its a gud move if Navy takes the responsibility of southern India, Expand its Marine which is now a small battalion size force of Army ..

Have a strategy in place to cover all Arabian and Bay of Bengal via Air assets and position Anti-ship batteries & AAD along Indian coastal borders which have major ports and Naval assets ..

Minimize the burden of IAF and Army who are stationed there without any strategy regarding ocean / sea surveillance and response strategy in place ..

Besides, Army and Air-force so does Navy have almost no communication in any operation in these areas ..

I'm talking about South India! I don't think there's any need for land based military in South India. It's better to have navies take over all army and air force operations.
 

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