India likely to acquire Tu-22M3 Supersonic Bombers

pmaitra

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I didn't know that it was an export version which crashed. If this indeed is the case, it is both bad and good publicity.
Bad publicity because buyers will now ask why they should shell out millions for something which can be downed by an arm costing thousands. Good publicity in favour of the ECM suite though.

Wow, that sounds like a nice video, which thread?
Russian stuffs are the best value for money. Also, Russians are great at tech. Too bad their advertising is not as potent as their countermeasures. :D
It is there in the Russian Involvement in Syria thread. I have to do a lot of sifting to find it.
 

WolfPack86

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People talk here this and that.

But the story in real world is different.

Have a look -------> http://alert5.com/2016/07/08/embargoes-have-forced-rsk-mig-to-deliver-mig-29ks-to-india-in-substandard-configuration/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Embargoes have forced RSK-MiG to deliver MiG-29Ks to India in substandard configuration
Indian Navy reports problems with Russian carrier, aircraft
There are still a number of problems with India's Russian-built Mikoyan MiG-29K/KUB aircraft, as well as with the aircraft carrier formerly known as Admiral Gorshkov that entered Indian Navy service in 2013, sources in India have told IHS Jane's .

The complaints about the MiG-29K/KUB aircraft are generally due to the inability of the Russian firm RSK-MiG to deliver a complete aircraft that incorporates all of the features promised in the contractual documents signed by both parties.

Indian experts who have visited the test base at Goa, where flight training with the aircraft is conducted, report that the MiG-29Ks are being delivered to India in a substandard configuration. The aircraft, said one specialist who visited the Goa base recently, "are literally being upgraded and brought up to spec while on the flightline".

The chief culprit in this dilemma, say both Indian and Russian specialists, are the combined embargoes enacted by the Ukrainian government that bar the export of any military-use items to Russia, along with the EU and US sanctions that prohibit the export of Western military components to Moscow. The 'workaround' has been for India to import these items directly, then have them integrated onto the aircraft on-site at the Goa base.

The MiG-29K for India differs from the MiG-29KR aircraft being built for the Russian Navy (VMF) in that the Indian-produced and foreign-made components are deleted in the configuration of the latter aircraft and replaced by Russian-made systems.

The Russian-supplied carrier, which has been renamed INS Vikramaditya , is a re-built and modified Kiev-class cruiser that has been converted into a fully capable short take-off but arrested recovery (STOBAR) aircraft carrier by Russia's Sevmash shipyards.

INS Vikramaditya has its own shortcomings in that it is still not fully equipped for carrier operations. "One of the items still lacking is a proper emergency landing barrier for other-than-normal landings aboard the ship," said one Indian specialist.
http://www.janes.com/article/62063/indian-navy-reports-problems-with-russian-carrier-aircraft
 

hardip

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People talk here this and that.

But the story in real world is different.

Have a look -------> http://alert5.com/2016/07/08/embargoes-have-forced-rsk-mig-to-deliver-mig-29ks-to-india-in-substandard-configuration/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Embargoes have forced RSK-MiG to deliver MiG-29Ks to India in substandard configuration
hmm.. also.. Western country did more than this..
France nd uk.. (also Europe country which is supplied military technology to india) not provide military equipment when india needs . . ( mostly at war)..

example...kargil war..india have miraj2000 but not require engine by France.. same behavior of UK..


..the Western powers acted
belligerently and refused to supply weapons and spare
parts France, UK refused to supply spare parts for the
French and British jets & other weaponry. USA had a
weapons sale embargo and refused to alter it's stance
through the war.( Pakistan army during Kargil war when US govt. refused
to give coordinates from GPS..)

at that time.. one only real call friend out for india.
Isreal :This is where Israel stepped in and
supplied the country with what parts were needed.

Russian It is important to recall at the time Russia was going through
the Ruble Crisis and a leadership change. Prior to the
war, Russia supported New Delhi at the UNSC in the
face of western sanctions & protected the country as
they usually have.
For their part during the Kargil war, Moscow supported
India's stance, augmented the weapons supplies to
India and kept up the usual diplomatic pressure against
Pakistan's allies to force pressure on Pakistan. Moscow
did support India & will continue to do so. ike..

this is deference..
 

manutdfan

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I see CISMOA being mentioned quite often here. If you ask me if CISMOA is the price to be paid for entry into NSG with the coveted UNSC seat being the ultimate goal then yes CISMOA is a very small price to be paid indeed. See it as a confidence building measure rather than India compromising its sovereignty. If I'm not wrong the version of CISMOA that India has signed or is going to sign is a heavily modified version (Indo-US nuclear deal? NSG bending its norms to accomodate India?) unlike the ones thrusted down the throat of unsuspecting 3rd world countries.

Yes if the US does impose sanctions against India it will affect our capabilities but every-time the Americans impose sanctions India emerges stronger not only militarily but economically too. This the Americans had realised way back in 2001. It may set our current programs back by a couple of years but let's not kid ourselves we are not exactly known for our punctuality. We can absorb another decade of delay easily. It's not as if we are making any rampant progress right now either.

I say - sign every bloody deal with the Americans (modified to our tastes obviously). Get whatever you want from them but obviously we'll have to pay a premium. Keep playing the China card just to keep the Americans on their toes.
In the meantime get all the private players of Indian origin even those with average capacity and capability to start reverse engineering everything under the sun but discreetly of course. Don't just restrict it to the Tatas and Ambanis. Please let us not try to take the moral high ground here. Tata, Bajaj, Hero, the entire domestic pharma & IT industry, you name it; they can all attribute their present success to decades of well disguised reverse engineering; all the while employing the shrewd Indian legal & bureaucratic system to get them off the hook. Once you get hold of the blueprints no one gives a fuck. All legality regarding IPR goes right out of the window. The onus is on the plaintiff to prove its case which is a very difficult and time consuming process especially in India.

I still wonder what the our Govt. is doing after signing the MTCR. If we cannot capitalise on it to get access to inter-continental/long-range cruise missiles from the Russians in the next couple of years- the +600km P-800 Oniks (from which Brahmos was developed) or the +3,000km Kh-55 Raduga or the +2,500km version of the 3M-54 Klub whose 300km version currently serves with the Indian Navy then it's just a waste of bloody time and effort.
 
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Yumdoot

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The only one deal that is currently being mooted for signing has only one modification to it - The name has been changed from LSA to LEMOA. That one change will allow IAF to operate from Ramstein :devil:.

If people remember the apologists for these 'foundational' agreements used to say that we will get this and that once we sign LSA or LEMOA whatever. Well just a few posts above you have what happened. India dosen't just has to worry about sanctions to Indian entities, it also has to worry about sanctions on Russia. And all this happened just when Modi ji was visiting Obama for the 4th time and meeting him perhaps for the 7th, I think. And all this happened also exactly when the Americans were threatening to 'not export' F-16s to Pakis.

Anyhow, while LEMOA is only our headache. The CISMOA really is everybodies headache. For one the only country in South East Asia (Vietnam) that is really proactive in managing China has yet to come on board for anything. They had made their offers to Indian Navy several years back but our MEA is fixated on West for its shahi tukde. Then there is the problem of Russian equipment that is currently there in the Indian Inventory. For old timers who remember there was the old 'story' of Parakaram days when two of our ships came back to home port without there being any order from their Naval HQ. The GPS story is not there for Kargil only. There is the GPS blinking story during Obama swearing in, around, I think the 9th Brahmos test. Then the sudden capacity that Pakis acquired where their Anti Ship harpoons became land attack capable. God only knows how the P8I will ever search for submarines without any sensible ISAR. The Ex-navy 'entrepreneurs' on whose legs the whole of the Sonar codes stand, has already been contacted by Lockheed (the expose was by the 'entrepreneur' himself). Then there is the story about the Russian consultant to one of the weapons systems being 'contacted' while he was in India. Then there is the NRI rich with patents who helped source Russian nano-tech for his masters (I think MMI), leveraging the Indo-Russian good relations. The list goes on and on and on. We have had cases where Indian naval officers who were attached with the super secret SSBN projects, admitted to by American diplomats, to begin planted by Americans (old timers would know this well). Then there is the story of an Indian Navy sub in 1971 chancing upon a much much bigger submarine (possibly a nuke sub) in the Arabian ocean. While all these are stories only, there is always a fire somewhere, however small, controlled by whoever, if there is some smoke observed.

No sir the risk is too great not just for the Indian armed forces but also for others who use the kind of equipment that is being used by Indian armed forces. For example the Russians have had their LRMPs hooked up as nodes between their subs and their sats. And all the while these LRMPs can function even with the Sats being disabled. This has been so for ages. Coincidently the LRMPs that Indian Navy uses are of later generations. Already much of the so called armed forces network has been built by American companies. Only an idiot American would not try to put trap doors and backdoors in. You can rest assured, the Pentagon, State Dept., and Whitehouse know better about the picture that our armed forces are seeing then even our own armed forces. All you need is one slip by one of our own officers, done without any harmful intent, ending up compromising the very usage of the weaponry. Automation that is happening currently and which is actually required, will ensure that the Indian 'kill chain' will be accessed much more intrusively, if CISMOA is unrolled. And whatever the song and dance between USN and PLAN, they have never fired even a 0.56 bullet at each other. Only Indian kala angrez get horny about USN leading IN into naval fights with PLAN. What if Indian Navy actually has to put up a fight against the PLAN?

Similar is the case with IAF. Just to give you an example, during the earliest of Cope India Ex. there was suspicion raised by some that perhaps the Mig-21Bison was receiving information from outside also, in as yet unknown ways. Bisons had jammer, that is known even by panwadis. But what if they really had something else too. Now what if during one of the exercises this is simply briefed to somebody who is not pilot and instead, is a EW engineer. Such a planted engineer would not even require accurate information. Just a general hint at what bandwidth to scan or the carrier wave used or the repetition factor would be enough. What will happen to these black ops capabilities. And these black capabilities actually do exist with parts of our armed forces. Some time back the Indian Navy had admitted to some such tech in its subs that ended up surprising the PLAN (or was it USN?).

This has strategic implications too. For example the P8I has no OTH targeting capability but IL38SD do. Co-incidently the P8I is a large picture sensor platform. This platform will work over and above even the Tu-142M and IL38SD, whether its needed or not. So basically any missile ported or coordinated by to Tu-142M will get launched only after the same has been cleared for launch by P8I. In such a case how would you like the Americans to also have access to the datalink between the Tu-142M and IL38SD, which actually may be linked to the Brahmos that has passed out of the datalink horizon of the surface fleet that launched it? Actually even the Russian Helos in Indian Navy are datalinked for OTH targeting. Existence of these capabilities were perhaps the reason the Indian Navy agreed to P8I not having any of the OTH capacity. Now to say that inter-operability which in a, limited but practicable way, already exists for the Indo-US exercises and by way of American build C&C network, should be allowed into the realm of black capabilities is crazy.

In near future all of Indian Navy assets will be satcom enabled. That whole system of satcom enabled networking which is already observable from networks established by American companies will be accessible with our 'consent' in the real time to american task force commanders even if they are merely observing the IN battle it out with an enemy nation. At that time will the American task force commanders work to save Indian Navy or will they work to save American strategic interests?
 
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WolfPack86

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India ready to empower Air Defense by Russian Tu-22M3 Supersonic Bomber
 

pmaitra

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@WolfPack86, interesting video. I think the term "Air Defence" is not accurate to represent the role of the Tupolev-22M3. It is more of a strategic bomber.
 

AnantS

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If I remember correctly India had rejected Tu 22M3 long back. I believe there was an official interview, where they mentioned the same.
 

manutdfan

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Another query- why 1000 T-90s why not T-14 Armata? I have to say I have absolutely no idea what's going on in that field. Is the T-14 Armata really a 4th-gen tank as it claims to be and if it is then does it have a generational advantage over the M1A2 Abrams?
 

sorcerer

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India to buy advanced T-90 tanks from Russia

Indian Army intends to purchase advanced T-90 tanks from Russia. Experts believe that it is best suited for deployment along the western border.


The intended purchase of 460 T-90 tanks would be worth more than $2.1 billion with the Make in India component.

Furthering its defence cooperation with Russia, India is set to approve another high-value purchase from Moscow in next few weeks. Sources say that the Indian Army is interested in purchasing the latest version of T-90 tanks equipped with thermal imaging night vision cameras and some additional countermeasures to significantly reduce the chances of being hit by enemy anti-tank semi-automatic guided weapons. The Indian Army has submitted a proposal seeking final approval of the Defence Acquisition Council, the decision-making body for all India’s defence deals.


Major General R K Arora (retired), Chief Editor of Indian Military Review, says, “We have still not finalized what our future battle tank will be like. Secondly, the development of the Arjun Mark 2 is taking more time; so there is a gap between now and may be 5 years or so before the development of future main battle tank takes place. So, it is a stopgap measure that we are going to buy more T-90 tanks. We may have 800 or so T-90 tanks just now. Now the government is planning to buy 460 more that will make it about 1,300 T-90 tanks in the fleet.”

The intended purchase of 460 T-90 tanks would be worth more than $2.1 billion with the Make in India component. Sputnik reported earlier that the Indian Army had put the T-90 on a list of products that domestic industry could help design and manufacture under the Army Design Bureau. The T-90 is already being assembled at Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF), Avadi in the southern state of Tamil Nadu. The factory also produces T-72 tanks. It is not clear if the additional T-90 tanks will be produced by HVF or if the opportunity will be thrown open to the private sector.

Brigadier Rumel Dahiya (Retired), Deputy Director General, Institute of Defence and Security Analyses added his comments on the deal.

“Transfer of technology was part of the original deal signed with Russia to procure T-90 tanks initially. The transfer took some time but now I think the technology is available. Therefore it has become possible to manufacture the tanks all by us with most of the sub-assemblies being manufactured locally and the rest still required to be imported getting replaced by indigenously produced sub-assemblies over a period of time,” he said.

Currently, India has about 13 regiments of T-90 that could go up to 21 regiments by 2020. One regiment consists of 62 tanks. In November 2006, India ordered 330 T-90 tanks from Russia, out of which some are assembled at an Indian ordnance factory. Indian assembled tanks are fitted with the Shtora self-protection system as well as Catherine thermal images from Thales of France and Peleng of Belarus.

First published by Sputnik.

https://in.rbth.com/economics/defence/2016/11/02/india-to-buy-advanced-t-90-tanks-from-russia_644329
 

AnantS

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^ Same ol Same ol story. Same logic was cited during Arjun Mk1 days for initial lot of T-90 tanks. I am disappointed by BJP on defense. Where is the flying engine test bed for GTRE? Where is the money for third line of LCA? Why the fck are we even importing T-90 when Arjun Mk1 is ready and Arjun Mk2 is also ready(if we were to ignore usual IA's tantrums viz Arjun)?
 

sorcerer

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^ Same ol Same ol story. Same logic was cited during Arjun Mk1 days for initial lot of T-90 tanks. I am disappointed by BJP on defense. Where is the flying engine test bed for GTRE? Where is the money for third line of LCA? Why the fck are we even importing T-90 when Arjun Mk1 is ready and Arjun Mk2 is also ready(if we were to ignore usual IA's tantrums viz Arjun)?
Major General R K Arora (retired), Chief Editor of Indian Military Review, says, “We have still not finalized what our future battle tank will be like. Secondly, the development of the Arjun Mark 2 is taking more time; so there is a gap between now and may be 5 years or so before the development of future main battle tank takes place. So, it is a stopgap measure that we are going to buy more T-90 tanks. We may have 800 or so T-90 tanks just now. Now the government is planning to buy 460 more that will make it about 1,300 T-90 tanks in the fleet.”

The army verdict..
We have a hot border..
Contingency at play!!
 

SajeevJino

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India ready to empower Air Defense by Russian Tu-22M3 Supersonic Bomber
who spreading these kinda poor show of pieces into Indian Market, No one is ready to buy these idiotic stuff's..

MKI with single Brahmos will take care, MKI with three Brahmos NG take care in future
 

SajeevJino

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^ Same ol Same ol story. Same logic was cited during Arjun Mk1 days for initial lot of T-90 tanks. I am disappointed by BJP on defense. Where is the flying engine test bed for GTRE? Where is the money for third line of LCA? Why the fck are we even importing T-90 when Arjun Mk1 is ready and Arjun Mk2 is also ready(if we were to ignore usual IA's tantrums viz Arjun)?
Stop talking, babu's and politicians want Russian business keep going to get more natasha's and Money, meanwhile our engineers in DRDO and AVADI keep their burger running.

Idiot's has to build new production line for Arjun MK2, and buy whole lot of Spare parts, or else let the damn Make in India to do something by opening a door to Private players
 

lcafanboy

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India likely to acquire Tu-22M3 Supersonic Bombers to Hunt down PLAN Warships
Wednesday, August 30, 2017 By: Defence News





India seems likely to acquire four Tupolev Tu-22M3 "Backfire" twin-engine strategic bombers from Russia and will probably use these long-range jets on maritime strike missions to attack warships with volleys of modern anti-ship missiles (ASMs), including India's own BrahMos-A.

When they arrive in India, the Backfires will become the country's first long-range strategic bombers. Indian media said these four variable-wing jets should be sufficient to deter China from further expansion in the Indian Ocean.

In December 2015, China announced it would build a naval base for its People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) on the Seychelles, an Indian Ocean nation off the east coast of Africa.

Indian military analysts said the only conceivable deployment for the Tu-22M3 is to attack PLAN warships in the Indian Ocean and in the South China Sea. The jets have a range of 6,800 km, allowing them to venture out to the South China Sea from Visakhapatnam, headquarters of the Indian Navy's Eastern Naval Command. The distance to the Seychelles is 4,000 km.

The Tu-22M3 was originally designed by the Soviet Union as a long-range maritime strike bomber armed with stand-off cruise missiles capable of attacking U.S. Navy carriers at very long-range.

India might choose to arm the Tu-22M3 with the air launched version of its BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, the BrahMos-A, or with the Russian cruise missiles it's designed to launch: the Raduga Kh-22 and the Raduga Kh-15.

The Kh-22 has a range of 600 km and a 1,000 kg warhead. This weapon can also be armed with a nuclear warhead. The smaller Kh-15 with its 150 kg warhead is the world's fastest aircraft-launched missile.

Backfires from the Thanjavur Air Force Base in southern India armed with the BrahMos-A can hunt down and hit PLAN warships in the Indian Ocean. The BrahMos-A can be modified to carry a nuclear warhead.

Russia currently uses its Tu-22M3s to bomb targets in Syria in support of the Syrian government. The jets rain down unguided "dumb bombs" on their targets, which the United States says are mostly resistance groups allied with it.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...nic-Bombers-to-Hunt-down-PLAN-Warships-283945

@Kunal Biswas @Mikesingh @Bornubus @airtel
 

Flame Thrower

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India likely to acquire Tu-22M3 Supersonic Bombers to Hunt down PLAN Warships
Wednesday, August 30, 2017 By: Defence News





India seems likely to acquire four Tupolev Tu-22M3 "Backfire" twin-engine strategic bombers from Russia and will probably use these long-range jets on maritime strike missions to attack warships with volleys of modern anti-ship missiles (ASMs), including India's own BrahMos-A.

When they arrive in India, the Backfires will become the country's first long-range strategic bombers. Indian media said these four variable-wing jets should be sufficient to deter China from further expansion in the Indian Ocean.

In December 2015, China announced it would build a naval base for its People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) on the Seychelles, an Indian Ocean nation off the east coast of Africa.

Indian military analysts said the only conceivable deployment for the Tu-22M3 is to attack PLAN warships in the Indian Ocean and in the South China Sea. The jets have a range of 6,800 km, allowing them to venture out to the South China Sea from Visakhapatnam, headquarters of the Indian Navy's Eastern Naval Command. The distance to the Seychelles is 4,000 km.

The Tu-22M3 was originally designed by the Soviet Union as a long-range maritime strike bomber armed with stand-off cruise missiles capable of attacking U.S. Navy carriers at very long-range.

India might choose to arm the Tu-22M3 with the air launched version of its BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, the BrahMos-A, or with the Russian cruise missiles it's designed to launch: the Raduga Kh-22 and the Raduga Kh-15.

The Kh-22 has a range of 600 km and a 1,000 kg warhead. This weapon can also be armed with a nuclear warhead. The smaller Kh-15 with its 150 kg warhead is the world's fastest aircraft-launched missile.

Backfires from the Thanjavur Air Force Base in southern India armed with the BrahMos-A can hunt down and hit PLAN warships in the Indian Ocean. The BrahMos-A can be modified to carry a nuclear warhead.

Russia currently uses its Tu-22M3s to bomb targets in Syria in support of the Syrian government. The jets rain down unguided "dumb bombs" on their targets, which the United States says are mostly resistance groups allied with it.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/I...nic-Bombers-to-Hunt-down-PLAN-Warships-283945

@Kunal Biswas @Mikesingh @Bornubus @airtel
The most stupid idea. Here are muly reasons.

1. High cost
2. Single mission
3. More down time
4. New training and procedures.
5. Need escorts.


Operating T-22M3 is going to be hell lot costlier.

Each flanker can carry 3 Brahmos, Brahmos flying from Andaman should be more than enough to hunt any PLAN ships in the IOR.

We will not get new T-22M3s, thought they maybe cheaper(I don't think so) than new flankers. Operating costs will be way too high.

While T-22s can only used for bombing and Anti Ship, similar roles can be performed by flankers, we might need a fuel tanker for flankers to get the range.
But Flankers can be used to Air defense too

We need to put at least 100 resources to train(fly and maintain the birds) for tu-22.

If I had heard this in 2008, then I'd have loved to see them in IN/IAF, but after flankers testing air launched Brahmos, I consider this as a bad Idea.

Thus I rest my case
 

F-14B

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https://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-74653329.html

look what I found
India recently signed a $3-billion contract with Russia, which includes the purchase of the 44,000 ton Kiev-class Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, complete with 46 MiG-29 aircraft.

In addition, India will, under separate lease-to-buy contract, acquire four Tu-22M/Tu-26 "Backfire" bombers. The Tu-26s were designed for maritime reconnaissance and strike, and, according to Russian Air Chief Kornukov, will be delivered along with the nuclear-capable supersonic KH-22 "Kitchen" cruise missile -- a potential violation of the non-proliferation treaty to which Russia is a signatory. …
 

Mikesingh

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I think this is a moronic idea! Methinks the P-8I aircraft that we already have are well suited for this role.

The P-8I conducts anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-surface warfare (ASUW), and shipping interdiction, along with an early warning self-protection (EWSP) ability, otherwise known as electronic support measures (ESM). It is armed with torpedoes, depth charges, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, and other weapons in its 5 internal and 6 external stations .

It can be also be armed with the Brahmos NG missile as well as other anti ship missiles.Though its range is less than the Backfire, these aircraft can be deployed at the Andamans where the runway is already being extended as well as our military bases at Oman, Madagascar, Seychelles, Maldives and even Vietnam if push comes to shove. Thus we would be able to cover a wide area over the IOR and SCS with the p-8Is.


So, all said it would be a silly idea to induct Backfires at enormous cost since the P-8Is of the Indian Navy are well suited for such maritime tasks against the PLAN.
 

AmoghaVarsha

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I think this is a moronic idea! Methinks the P-8I aircraft that we already have are well suited for this role.

The P-8I conducts anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-surface warfare (ASUW), and shipping interdiction, along with an early warning self-protection (EWSP) ability, otherwise known as electronic support measures (ESM). It is armed with torpedoes, depth charges, Harpoon anti-ship missiles, and other weapons in its 5 internal and 6 external stations .

It can be also be armed with the Brahmos NG missile as well as other anti ship missiles.Though its range is less than the Backfire, these aircraft can be deployed at the Andamans where the runway is already being extended as well as our military bases at Oman, Madagascar, Seychelles, Maldives and even Vietnam if push comes to shove. Thus we would be able to cover a wide area over the IOR and SCS with the p-8Is.


So, all said it would be a silly idea to induct Backfires at enormous cost since the P-8Is of the Indian Navy are well suited for such maritime tasks against the PLAN.
We have military bases in Oman Madagascar Seychelles And Maldives?

Ye kab hua ji?
 

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