India-China 2020 Border conflict

[Cheran]

Too many corrupt persons in Indian bureaucracy due to 2 generations corrupted during anti national scamgress rule. Just terminate the employee for clearing the chinese trials for he must have 100% taken corrupt money from the chinese.

Stupid baboo has only been transferred.

Should be investigated for possible ChuChi CCP link/infiltration.

 

[mokoman]

@mokoman @mist_consecutive @Deadtrap can provide you with detailed inputs on this.

I think only people who can really give that is the Chinese.

Forget about LAC even official border line shown in google maps and google earth are wrong.

It gives you the impression that its our official border line , one claimed by GOI (for example aksai china is shown as our) . but in several places its a mix of official border and LAC.

Best example is AP.

The border lines there in google maps dont match with official border line.

See this Chinese camp in upper siang

Google Earth

earth.google.com

According to google its 8km outside India , but according to survey of india , its 5 km inside Indian .

IMHO this is dangerous , either show official lines or show LAC , mixing both is bad idea.

------------

only place that has "mostly correct" official border is here

Zoom Earth | Live Weather Map & Hurricane Tracker

Interactive world weather map. Track hurricanes, cyclones, storms. View LIVE satellite images, rain radar, forecast maps of wind, temperature for your location.

zoom.earth

but you have to fully zoom in and even then its wrong at some places.

 

[mokoman]

Beijing is in the final stages of approving a $400 billion economic and security deal with Tehran. The agreement envisions closer cooperation on defense and intelligence sharing and is rumored to include discounts for Iranian oil too.

If finalized, the Hans would gain massive influence in this geopolitically critical region and simultaneously throw a lifeline to the embattled Mullah Regime which will forever be indebted to the Hans. They will then be forced to sell their family jewels to them in lieu of their EMIs.

i was referring to that deal. Iranians are not senseless like Pakistanis.

Unless Trump goes to war with Iran or orders strikes on Iran nuclear facilities.

IMHO they wont go with it.The deal will simply stay in "final stages"

There is also an arms embargo on Iran expiring next year.Trump wanted to renew it , Would be interesting to see what move Biden makes.

 

[shade]

i was referring to that deal. Iranians are not senseless like Pakistanis.

Unless Trump goes to war with Iran or orders strikes on Iran nuclear facilities.

IMHO they wont go with it.The deal will simply stay in "final stages"

There is also an arms embargo on Iran expiring next year.Trump wanted to renew it , Would be interesting to see what move Biden makes.

imo Farsis are experts at "jewing" their benefactors like this if they suspect any foul play.
They won't play nicely like the Pakis are being good ghulams to the Chinese.
Aside from regime change/color revolution, toppling the Mullah regime using military force will be cancer, like 10x worse than Afghanistan, and even the insurgency after it, so that is why they are confident that they can have their way with anyone, and nobody can fuck them without consequences.

 

[Deadtrap]

I think only people who can really give that is the Chinese.

Forget about LAC even official border line shown in google maps and google earth are wrong.

It gives you the impression that its our official border line , one claimed by GOI (for example aksai china is shown as our) . but in several places its a mix of official border and LAC.

Best example is AP.

The border lines there in google maps dont match with official border line.

See this Chinese camp in upper siang

Google Earth

earth.google.com

According to google its 8km outside India , but according to survey of india , its 5 km inside Indian .

IMHO this is dangerous , either show official lines or show LAC , mixing both is bad idea.

------------

only place that has "mostly correct" official border is here

Zoom Earth | Live Weather Map & Hurricane Tracker

Interactive world weather map. Track hurricanes, cyclones, storms. View LIVE satellite images, rain radar, forecast maps of wind, temperature for your location.

zoom.earth

but you have to fully zoom in and even then its wrong at some places.

If we follow watershed principle (because that's what govt. and army implies) then Google version of border line is accurate baring at some places in AP. Since there is no high precision map by Survey of India available in the public domain it becomes very tough to know where exactly the line passes through. Google Earth line + Scholarly literatures is what I use to determine the border. Hell there is history of confusion amongst the government and army officials as to where the borders passes.
The current border line depicted on Bing, Apple Map and Zoom Earth gives no regards to the watershed principle. It's like drawing a thick line over a small map. Though it may look similar to the official map of India I tend to not take it seriously. One can look at these lines as our maximalist claim.

Also some chaps were saying that Google has 'Salami Sliced' our own territory. But you need to see that the opposite is also true. Eg. In Fishtail Area 1 and 2 Google have given us more area as per watershed principle than what we have shown in our own official map.

Google Earth Line:

Our Offical map line:

 

[mokoman]

If we follow watershed principle (because that's what govt. and army implies) then Google version of border line is accurate baring at some places in AP. Since there is no high precision map by Survey of India available in the public domain it becomes very tough to know where exactly the line passes through. Google Earth line + Scholarly literatures is what I use to determine the border. Hell there is history of confusion amongst the government and army officials as to where the borders passes.
The current border line depicted on Bing, Apple Map and Zoom Earth gives no regards to the watershed principle. It's like drawing a thick line over a small map. Though it may look similar to the official map of India I tend to not take it seriously. One can look at these lines as our maximalist claim.

Also some chaps were saying that Google has 'Salami Sliced' our own territory. But you need to see that the opposite is also true. Eg. In Fishtail Area 1 and 2 Google have given us more area as per watershed principle than what we have shown in our own official map.

Google Earth Line:

View attachment 70982

Our Offical map line:

View attachment 70980View attachment 70981

Its not up to google to decide where our claim lines are.


You are right about our borders in AP been fucked up.

You can thank McMahon for that . Read somewhere He drew with thick pen on small map and it has no basis with actual survey of area.


For accurate online version you can check,directly from GOI

Survey of India Maps

indiamaps.gov.in

Its like google maps except its shitty, Chinese also has a similar one , its also shitty.
Its has a sat image view but its low res.Also border areas with China are blurred out


Also what in gods name is this ?

Google Earth

earth.google.com

Part of the border with China by side of Bhutan is a horiztontal line.

Looks like who ever drew it simply became lazy and said fuck it.

We are occupying few area north of the line but entire rest of it is occupied by our dear neighbor.

 

[Deadtrap]

Its not up to google to decide where our claim lines are.


You are right about our borders in AP been fucked up.

You can thank McMahon for that . Read somewhere He drew with thick pen on small map and it has no basis with actual survey of area.


For accurate online version you can check,directly from GOI

Survey of India Maps

indiamaps.gov.in

Its like google maps except its shitty, Chinese also has a similar one , its also shitty.
Its has a sat image view but its low res.Also border areas with China are blurred out


Also what in gods name is this ?

Google Earth

earth.google.com

Part of the border with China by side of Bhutan is a horiztontal line.

Looks like who ever drew it simply became lazy and said fuck it.

We are occupying few area north of the line but entire rest of it is occupied by our dear neighbor.

Use Bhuvan instead of survey maps. It has same boundary but again it makes no sense with respect to "Watershed principle" which the army and the govt. talk about for AP.

Also I am talking abt LAC and not McMohan. McMohan is our maximalist claim line. LAC and McMohan is mostly similar but overlaps in many places hence the perception difference.

 

[another_armchair]

India's Russian Deals To Build Assault Rifles and Light Utility Helicopters in Jeopardy

India’s two much-hyped joint ventures (JVs) with Russia are floundering over costs, flawed planning and overreach on achieving 'atmanirbharta' in the military sector.

m.thewire.in

A Russian AK-103 Assault Rifle, from which the AK-203 rifles are derived. Photo: Burnyburnout/Wikimedia Commons CC BY-SA 3.0
The JV to implement the project followed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) that was signed soon after in which the OFB had a 50.5% stake in IRPL, the Kalashnikov Group 42% and Russia’s state-owned arms export agency Rosonboronexport, the remaining 7.5%.


The intent was for IRPL to import some 100,000 AK-203’s for around $ 1,100 (Rs 81,000) apiece to meet the army’s urgent operational needs, followed by the licensed production of the remaining 650,000-odd units. Almost immediately, un-reconcilable price differences and technology transfer issues emerged, which industry sources said could not be resolved even during defence minister Rajnath Singh’s recent Moscow visit in September. This, in turn, led to the MoD instituting a ‘Costing Committee’ in September to try and resolve the ‘unreasonable and unacceptable’ rifle contract price reportedly being demanded by Russia. For now, it’s not clear whether this committee’s report has been submitted to the MoD, and if so, what has been the outcome. But the reality is that the Ak-203 deal remains unsigned and the bulk of the IA continues to operate the inefficient INSAS rifles while frontline units employed on counter-insurgency operations (COIN) are dependent on imported weapons.

The Russians were also reportedly demanding a royalty of $200 per Ak-203 rifle produced by the JV, making it an astronomical licence fee of $130 million for 650,000 units, in addition to the cost of erecting the plant, the bulk of which would be borne by OFB. The JV is expected to annually produce 70,000 Ak-203’s, initially from knocked-down kits and later by localising components and sub-assemblies to indigenise production to further the governments Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative.

But contractual problems did not end here.

The OFB is believed to have costed each licence-built Ak-203 rifle initially at around Rs 86,000, amortised over time to average around Rs 80,000 per unit. Embarrassingly, in comparison the import of a repeat import order for 72,400 assault rifles from the US-based Sig Sauer in early 2019 and late 2020, to meet the IA’s urgent operational needs, was considerably cheaper.

Official sources revealed that Sig Sauer’s SIG716 rifle priced at $990 (Rs 72,782) each in 2018 had emerged as L1 or lowest bidder in response to the IA’s tender, besting rivals Israel Weapon Industries and Abu Dhabi’s Caracal International that quoted $1600 and $2000 for their ACE-1 and CAR 817 assault rifles respectively.


Why not go for manufacturing SIG 716 rifles in India in the first place?

1. What would be the cost of setting up a factory(assembly vs building from scratch)? Will it match the production quality and scale as the US factory? They supplied the rifles in pretty good time and I haven't heard of them falling apart so far. Yes, the 7.62 NATO kicks like a horse and needs able hands to control but that's for the Army to decide and figure out.

2. How many orders will the local factory/manufacturer receive? 10 lakh rifles? 12 lakh rifles?
What happens after that to the 'factory' and the staff? Will it be a private player or will it go to OFB ? Who will pay for the factory and the staff and where will the budget come from? Defence budget, obviously. So what would have ideally cost us 900-100 USD will cost us a lot more.

3. Army -> MoD -> FinMin. Negotiations will take years.

Easier to simply pay money to SIG and have the rifles delivered in good time. At least Americans haven't bled us like the French and Russians. Why should SIG invest or why should forces pay more when a direct import is cheaper and hassle free?
What are the others doing? Glorified screwdriveri onleeee. SSS Defence is a joke alright. PLR+IWI are doing assembly + a little tooling here and there. Bacha kaun? OFB -

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Use Bhuvan instead of survey maps. It has same boundary but again it makes no sense with respect to "Watershed principle" which the army and the govt. talk about for AP.

Also I am talking abt LAC and not McMohan. McMohan is our maximalist claim line. LAC and McMohan is mostly similar but overlaps in many places hence the perception difference.

Aree bhuvan is worse .
I see no places , written on it .
Plus , one cannot look into other countries .

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

1. What would be the cost of setting up a factory(assembly vs building from scratch)? Will it match the production quality and scale as the US factory? They supplied the rifles in pretty good time and I haven't heard of them falling apart so far. Yes, the 7.62 NATO kicks like a horse and needs able hands to control but that's for the Army to decide and figure out.

2. How many orders will the local factory/manufacturer receive? 10 lakh rifles? 12 lakh rifles?
What happens after that to the 'factory' and the staff? Will it be a private player or will it go to OFB ? Who will pay for the factory and the staff and where will the budget come from? Defence budget, obviously. So what would have ideally cost us 900-100 USD will cost us a lot more.

3. Army -> MoD -> FinMin. Negotiations will take years.

Easier to simply pay money to SIG and have the rifles delivered in good time. At least Americans haven't bled us like the French and Russians. Why should SIG invest or why should forces pay more when a direct import is cheaper and hassle free?
What are the others doing? Glorified screwdriveri onleeee. SSS Defence is a joke alright. PLR+IWI are doing assembly + a little tooling here and there. Bacha kaun? OFB -

Johnny baba agyani nahi hai .

 

[another_armchair]

Johnny baba agyani nahi hai .

Maine kab kaha hain..? Bas kuch savaal uthaaye.. convince me that it makes more sense to manufacture SIG or any other rifle at more than what's on offer at suspect quality, 0 accountability and I will try to see your p.o.v.

List of equipment of the Indian Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tell me which of the small arms are made in India and which ones give us the least and the greatest headache? Forget Army, even CRPF refused the INSAS and has decided to arm most of its troops with AR-M1, AK's but OFB has managed to squeeze in its TAR in numbers.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Maine kab kaha hain..? Bas kuch savaal uthaaye.. convince me that it makes more sense to manufacture SIG or any other rifle at more than what's on offer at suspect quality, 0 accountability and I will try to see your p.o.v.

Lol , your statement has convinced me that it is more sensible to manufacture sig for whole army .
Army should just reissue slr 1c with modifications to make it look like a rifle which army can use .
Instead of a rag tag weapon .

 

[another_armchair]

Lol , your statement has convinced me that it is more sensible to manufacture sig for whole army .

1. Who will manufacture it?
2. What will the locally manufactured SIG cost us?

Army should just reissue slr 1c with modifications to make it look like a rifle which army can use .
Instead of a rag tag weapon .

If the Army indeed felt the SLR 1C was a perfect replacement, they wouldn't have rejected the OFB 7.62 NATO.

 

[Deadtrap]

Aree bhuvan is worse .
I see no places , written on it .
Plus , one cannot look into other countries .

I know User Interface is fucked up but it's very resourceful. I like it.

 

[johnq]

GOI is too cuck, leaders are fucking cowards...nothing else. Only if they could match with the amount of blabber they shiet through their mouth...

I still think that Covid and time for adequate preparation are the primary reasons for the current restraint by GoI in terms of military/economic retaliation (plus the weather also limits the current options). I suspect things will be very different in a post-Covid India next year. I don't think the GoI is under any illusions from the Chinese; it's all a waiting game until India is in a better position.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

1. Who will manufacture it?
2. What will the locally manufactured SIG cost us?


If the Army indeed felt the SLR 1C was a perfect replacement, they wouldn't have rejected the OFB 7.62 NATO.

After seeing problems with ofb .
It's better we buy off the shelf .
If army were to acquire slr 1c then , ofb would have manufactured it and well , everyone would have got same rifle .
Not the present khichdi of firearms .
Slr 1c was made to be fired from the firing ports of bmp2 vehicles .

 

[Poseidon]

New boss of Chinese military along LAC

 

[sorcerer]

China tacitly accepts India's supremacy in Indian Ocean

In what is a clear indication of grudging acceptance, the ruling Chinese Communist Party via its mouthpiece Global Times has accepted that India has "unique geographical advantages" in the Indian ocean.

China tacitly accepts India's supremacy in Indian Ocean

In what is a clear indication of grudging acceptance, the ruling Chinese Communist Party via its mouthpiece Global Times has accepted that India has "unique geographical advantages" in the Indian ocean. In an article on 17 December titled “India changes attitude toward multilateral mechanisms...

www.wionews.com

Who cares if china accepts it or not..
if push comes to shove..tear apart china ruthlessly.

 

[Cactus09]

New boss of Chinese military along LAC

Good news is the PLA central command was not satisfied with the intent of the western theatre command. And hence it shows how strong our response was.
Bad/neutral news is things can go south by spring or early summer.

 

[sorcerer]

Chinese President Xi appoints new General for PLA's Western Theatre Command amidst Ladakh standoff

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst