India-China 2020 Border conflict

[etantra]

Funding news in foreign countries is not something unique. Soviet use to do that in india. AIDS hoax being created by USA was spread by KGB from india. Chinese doing fake news , propaganda or writing articles to suite certain agenda is expected of them. We probably do the same.

well you clearly seem to be a phoren agent given how much shilling you have done and the non-chalant way you excused funding news by saying india probably does.. nice slide at the end.

not the mention rest of your crappy comments.

 

[etantra]

Sure, I agree. Just wanted to point out that SU-30MKIs regularly train for 8000 km missions with aerial refuelling, so a SU-30MKI carrying a Brahmos can pretty much hit any part of China.

I can see a few posts of people drawing circles showing the new range demonstrated by the Su-30 + brahmos combo.

what those circles miss is that refueling needs to be done over international waters or friendly nations. So the threat for China comes via sea. The whole of their eastern seaboard is at risk with this. see below

 

[Swiftfarts]

well you clearly seem to be a phoren agent given how much shilling you have done and the non-chalant way you excused funding news by saying india probably does.. nice slide at the end.

not the mention rest of your crappy comments.

Yes i am phoren agent. Name is farts .... swift farts to be precise.

 

[garg_bharat]

4000 KM is more then enough distance....

If you draw direct distance of shanghai from Tezpur and then Go towards Beijing it is still less than 4000km....

This range is oversea where air defence of the enemy is minimal or non-existent.

This cannot be range over land.

Good demo though.

 

[Swiftfarts]

I can see a few posts of people drawing circles showing the new range demonstrated by the Su-30 + brahmos combo.

what those circles miss is that refueling needs to be done over international waters or friendly nations. So the threat for China comes via sea. The whole of their eastern seaboard is at risk with this. see below

as if SU 30 going to survive the penetration.

 

[johnq]

This range is oversea where air defence of the enemy is minimal or non-existent.

This cannot be range over land.

Good demo though.

What about buddy refuelling, i.e. one SU-30MKI refuelling another using buddy refuelling pod to extend range? There must be areas not covered by air defence missiles. Plus during the course of war, certain air defence areas will be sanitized. I also wonder if buddy refuelling can be done at somewhat lower altitudes (to avoid being spotted by long range radars)? Also, don't forget radar jamming.

 

[hit&run]

I can see a few posts of people drawing circles showing the new range demonstrated by the Su-30 + brahmos combo.

what those circles miss is that refueling needs to be done over international waters or friendly nations. So the threat for China comes via sea. The whole of their eastern seaboard is at risk with this. see below

Quad networking is the answer.
..........................................

 

[johnq]

Quad networking is the answer.
..........................................

I was thinking along similar lines earlier. The SU-30MKI takes off from Eastern India, releases Brahmos at long range to hit target, then lands at Okinawa Air Base.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

What about buddy refuelling, i.e. one SU-30MKI refuelling another using buddy refuelling pod to extend range? There must be areas not covered by air defence missiles. Plus during the course of war, certain air defence areas will be sanitized. I also wonder if buddy refuelling can be done at somewhat lower altitudes (to avoid being spotted by long range radars)? Also, don't forget radar jamming.

Chinese AWACS will pick up any Su-30 MKI using terrain masking and flying below ground radar horizons. Chinese Combat Air Patrols won't let the Su-30 MKI get past them without a fight. Deep-strike missions require very careful planning. It can be done, but is exceedingly risky. And for what objective? Taking out factories or depots? There are far too many such targets on mainland China. Its better to build hypersonic glide weapons for that role.

 

[prasadr14]

Chinese AWACS will pick up any Su-30 MKI using terrain masking and flying below ground radar horizons. Chinese Combat Air Patrols won't let the Su-30 MKI get past them without a fight. Deep-strike missions require very careful planning. It can be done, but is exceedingly risky. And for what objective? Taking out factories or depots? There are far too many such targets on mainland China. Its better to build hypersonic glide weapons for that role.

more practical usage would be to target PLN ships.

 

[johnq]

Chinese AWACS will pick up any Su-30 MKI using terrain masking and flying below ground radar horizons. Chinese Combat Air Patrols won't let the Su-30 MKI get past them without a fight. Deep-strike missions require very careful planning. It can be done, but is exceedingly risky. And for what objective? Taking out factories or depots? There are far too many such targets on mainland China. Its better to build hypersonic glide weapons for that role.

Sure, nobody is suggesting bombing Beijing on day 1. But after Chinese AWACS have been shot down, deep penetration bombing missions become possible. Long range weapons such as hypersonic missiles and anti-AWACS missiles are good for knocking the air defence door down, but heavy hitters like the SU-30MKI and Rafale become useful afterwards.

An interesting fact: The distance from Guwahati, Assam to Taipei, Taiwan is under 3000 km.

 

[Swiftfarts]

I was thinking along similar lines earlier. The SU-30MKI takes off from Eastern India, releases Brahmos at long range to hit target, then lands at Okinawa Air Base.

It will be shot down long before that. Best bet is to petrol Malacca and sunda strait. real action in future will happen on ground in Himalaya's. That's where focus need to be....on ground forces.

Chinese AWACS will pick up any Su-30 MKI using terrain masking and flying below ground radar horizons. Chinese Combat Air Patrols won't let the Su-30 MKI get past them without a fight. Deep-strike missions require very careful planning. It can be done, but is exceedingly risky. And for what objective? Taking out factories or depots? There are far too many such targets on mainland China. Its better to build hypersonic glide weapons for that role.

Sure, nobody is suggesting bombing Beijing on day 1. But after Chinese AWACS have been shot down, deep penetration bombing missions become possible. Long range weapons such as hypersonic missiles and anti-AWACS missiles are good for knocking the air defence door down, but heavy hitters like the SU-30MKI and Rafale become useful afterwards.

An interesting fact: The distance from Guwahati, Assam to Taipei, Taiwan is under 3000 km.

^ let's say even if you do manage to penetrate say using a stealth plane forget SU 30 which is just a pipe dream of fanboys. This is what you are dealing with going into the future. no drone , supersonic, hypersonic weapon passing that shield forget stealth or other planes. Ground forces is where money need to go instead. While navy should play defensive with more focus on ASW + submarines + land based long range engagement systems.

 

[Vishalreddy3]

Has anyone read this??

 

[johnq]

It will be shot down long before that. Best bet is to petrol Malacca and sunda strait. real action in future will happen on ground in Himalaya's. That's where focus need to be....on ground forces.





^ let's say even if you do manage to penetrate say using a stealth plane forget SU 30 which is just a pipe dream of fanboys. This is what you are dealing with going into the future. no drone , supersonic, hypersonic weapon passing that shield forget stealth or other planes. Ground forces is where money need to go instead. While navy should play defensive with more focus on ASW + submarines + land based long range engagement systems.

LOL Reminds me of all that tracer firing in Iraq. There are countermeasures to everything, plus Chinese radar technology is primitive. Don't forget about jamming. The Rafale also carries a stealthy cruise missile. You have to detect and track it first. The Brahmos is a stealthy supersonic missile that flies in terrain-following mode when approaching target. Plus don't forget, India will be fighting with help from the Quad, including US jamming technology. Once the Chinese AWACS are shot down, deep penetration bombing using cruise missiles like Brahmos becomes possible.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

Sure, nobody is suggesting bombing Beijing on day 1. But after Chinese AWACS have been shot down, deep penetration bombing missions become possible. Long range weapons such as hypersonic missiles and anti-AWACS missiles are good for knocking the air defence door down, but heavy hitters like the SU-30MKI and Rafale become useful afterwards.

An interesting fact: The distance from Guwahati, Assam to Taipei, Taiwan is under 3000 km.

You are still missing Chinese Combat Air Patrols, which would be effective even after Chinese AWACS are shot down. India has relied on CAP for air defence through much of its history. Its only now that we are getting Medium and Long range Air Defence systems.

Moreover, these types of missions can only be carried out by IAF after they reach 42 squadron strength (by their own admission). We don't have the fighter strength to conduct a primarily offensive air campaign against China. Our Air Campaign will be offensive-defence ('cause purely defensive air campaigns are bound to fail). Since our Air Campaign is offensive-defence, our Air Interdiction effort should be on targets of immediate concern. And there is no shortage of such targets. Targets deep in China hold little value here.

I get that India has a new stand-off capability and we are all very excited about it. But we need to stay on the practical side of things. Even now we would be hard pressed to target Golmud, forget Beijing. Its better to use this new capability primarily to target Chinese ships in IOR, especially Lombok and Sunda straits. And if we need to use it to use it on Northern Front, using it to target Hotan along unexpected axes of attack.

As an aside, personally, I would much rather see Strategic Bombers as our heavy hitters. But we are gareeb right now. Should be possible post-2040, but not now.

 

[johnq]

You are still missing Chinese Combat Air Patrols, which would be effective even after Chinese AWACS are shot down. India has relied on CAP for air defence through much of its history. Its only now that we are getting Medium and Long range Air Defence systems.

Moreover, these types of missions can only be carried out by IAF after they reach 42 squadron strength (by their own admission). We don't have the fighter strength to conduct a primarily offensive air campaign against China. Our Air Campaign will be offensive-defence ('cause purely defensive air campaigns are bound to fail). Since our Air Campaign is offensive-defence, our Air Interdiction effort should be on targets of immediate concern. And there is no shortage of such targets. Targets deep in China hold little value here.

I get that India has a new stand-off capability and we are all very excited about it. But we need to stay on the practical side of things. Even now we would be hard pressed to target Golmud, forget Beijing. Its better to use this new capability primarily to target Chinese ships in IOR, especially Lombok and Sunda straits. And if we need to use it to use it on Northern Front, using it to target Hotan along unexpected axes of attack.

As an aside, personally, I would much rather see Strategic Bombers as our heavy hitters. But we are gareeb right now. Should be possible post-2040, but not now.

The ultimate range of the Brahmos will be greater than 800 km, which is enough of a standoff range to avoid PLAAF patrols. The Rafale's stealthy cruise missile already has a 600 km standoff range. The Nirbhay Air Launched cruise missile will also have a 1000 km standoff range, once operational.
The IAF already has jammers that can disable Chinese radars, both airborne and otherwise. And India has not even begun to get the ECM technology from the US, which will be a total gamechanger. All air defence radars can be jammed, especially primitive Chinese ones.
If you want the Chinese to stop their invasion, hit them deep in China destroying their military nerve center near Three Gorges Dam; we all know how. This can be done after Chinese AWACS are shot down. Chinese leadership don't care about the lives of their soldiers near the border.

 

[Swiftfarts]

LOL Reminds me of all that tracer firing in Iraq. There are countermeasures to everything, plus Chinese radar technology is primitive. Don't forget about jamming. The Rafale also carries a stealthy cruise missile. You have to detect and track it first. The Brahmos is a stealthy supersonic missile that flies in terrain-following mode when approaching target. Plus don't forget, India will be fighting with help from the Quad, including US jamming technology. Once the Chinese AWACS are shot down, deep penetration bombing using cruise missiles like Brahmos becomes possible.

You are comparing tiny Iraq to china ? They were not using such modern anti aircraft guns like above or CIWS back than.
Bigger countries have something called strategic depth. all there high value sites ( targets ) and other sites are deep within there countries.
and if we are talking about an all out war. You will have to come close even if you use an ELO class aircraft ( stealth bomber ).
100 of such guns just defending one site , let say around a radar station... is more than enough to decimate whole strike package along with 100 of standoff weapons fire at once both subsonic supersonic , hypersonic. Imagine what railgun based AAG will do. Best way to deal with such mess is to concentrate on ground forces and enhancing there capabilities while playing defensive in air and sea.

 

[johnq]

You are comparing tiny Iraq to china ? They were not using such modern anti aircraft guns like above or CIWS back than.
Bigger countries have something called strategic depth. all there high value sites ( targets ) and other sites are deep within there countries.
and if we are talking about an all out war. You will have to come close even if you use an ELO class aircraft ( stealth bomber ).
100 of such guns just defending one site , let say around a radar station... is more than enough to decimate whole strike package along with 100 of standoff weapons fire at once both subsonic supersonic , hypersonic. Imagine what railgun based AAG will do. Best way to deal with such mess is to concentrate on ground forces and enhancing there capabilities while playing defensive in air and sea.

I repeat again, Chinese radar technology is primitive and can already be jammed by Indian Air Force, and after the US helps India with ECM it will be a gamechanger. Don't go by shiny Chinese brochures. Chinese portray their military as much more advanced than it actually is, much like North Korea and other totalitarian states.
Ignore Chinese fanboys; they have been brainwashed by their government. Even CIWS needs to track its target using radar. If you jam the radar, it doesn't work. If you avoid the radar using terrain-following, it doesn't work. And Brahmos is a supersonic missile, so you have very little time to react.
Brahmos stand off range will ultimately be greater than 800 km.

 

[Swiftfarts]

I repeat again, Chinese radar technology is primitive and can already be jammed by Indian Air Force, and after the US helps India with ECM it will be a gamechanger. Don't go by shiny Chinese brochures. Chinese portray their military as much more advanced than it actually is, much like North Korea and other totalitarian states.
Ignore Chinese fanboys; they have been brainwashed by their government. Even CIWS needs to track its target using radar. If you jam the radar, it doesn't work. If you avoid the radar using terrain-following, it doesn't work. And Brahmos is a supersonic missile, so you have very little time to react.
Brahmos stand off range will ultimately be greater than 800 km.

Chinese radar technology being primitive, maybe , maybe not. Let's say even if they are primitive which i highly doubt. You do realise that Jamming is more effective at longer ranges than at closer distances , Radar burn through ? and no brahmos even if it has 2000 km range won't be penetrating defences of such system ever. We are talking about all out war..... so i am going to put mega watt class ground base radar close to each other surrounded by 500 of such guns each with 50 to 100 X band AESA or above small FCR for every 5 to 10 guns + huge network of ground based passive sensors all networked together. Let's see how many F 22 , F 35 , drones , supersonic , hypersonic weapons etc penetrate this shield.

 

[johnq]

Chinese radar technology being primitive, maybe , maybe not. Let's say even if they are primitive which i highly doubt. You do realise that Jamming is more effective at longer ranges than at closer distances , Radar burn through ? and no brahmos even if it has 2000 km range won't be penetrating defences of such system ever. We are talking about all out war..... so i am going to put mega watt class ground base radar close to each other surrounded by 500 of such guns each with 50 to 100 X band AESA or above small FCR for every 5 to 10 guns + huge network of ground based passive sensors all networked together. Let's see how many F 22 , F 35 , drones , supersonic , hypersonic weapons etc penetrate this shield.

None of that matters if your radars only look modern but use primitive programming, because it means that they can be jammed. And Brahmos will be using a terrain following trajectory at supersonic speeds making 12g turns, meaning your primitive Chinese radar has very little time to react.