IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[BON PLAN]

we can not use Astra , Sudershan , python , derby etc on Rafael if they dont Give us source codes ..............and most probably they will not Give .

As discussed a long time ago, Astra will be integrated on Rafale, as one AtoG indigenous (or israeli or...) weapon. It's part of the deal.

 

[Scarface]

it is not like "plug & play " system of Cable TV .............

to integrate the Israeli lightening Pod systems we need "source codes" .........that source code was provided by french ..........

without source codes we can not do anything ............

for example pakis can not use chini weapons on F-solah because they dont have source codes of F-16 .............

we can not use Astra , Sudershan , python , derby etc on Rafael if they dont Give us source codes ..............and most probably they will not Give .

we will be forced to buy costly French weapons ........like MICA ,meteor etc .

Russians Give us source codes and we use modified Avionics ................this is why we can Use Israeli /Indian weapons on Sukhoi -30 MKI .


.

So I'm still not getting from this, how they assisted us in integrating LGBs,all I'm getting is they didn't sabotage us by locking us out of the aircraft's system.

So at the end of the day,The LGBs were given to us by Israel,integrated by Israel and France is apparently getting credit for not sabotaging us.

You forget the end of the article : " without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf’s perfidy ".

It's all but vague.

What help ?
I still don't see how France helped us.
As far as vagueness is confirmed I was talking about that one specific statement about France "approving" the modifications

OK.

But india was not afraid by a medium carrier with a few Rafale (at those time only able to make limited AtoA) and some super etendard.....
And our carrier is very often in may in the indian ocean.

It's not the force but the sentiment that counts.

 

[airtel]

You forget the end of the article : " without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf’s perfidy ".

It's all but vague.

Not at all ...........we just have to cross LOC fight a Full scale war with Pakistaan , in that case we could Have captured Entire Kashmir .

Indian occupation on Gilgit baltistaan means ...................NO CPEC , Direct route to Afganistaan and all the ex soviet countries ................Gas pipelines & railways via Afghanistan to Russia & then Europe .

 

[airtel]

So I'm still not getting from this, how they assisted us in integrating LGBs,all I'm getting is they didn't sabotage us by locking us out of the aircraft's system.

So at the end of the day,The LGBs were given to us by Israel,integrated by Israel and France is apparently getting credit for not sabotaging us.



What help ?
I still don't see how France helped us.
As far as vagueness is confirmed I was talking about that one specific statement about France "approving" the modifications

according to me , here "approving" the modifications means providing the source codes ............at the time of war we will not wait for any french approval ........we will use our planes with or without permission of France .


may be i am wrong but according to me we can not integrate any
weapon or electronic system like lightening pods or anything without source codes of that plane , i think mr yamdoot has Good knowledge about Fighter planes ..............................
@Yumdoot ji please explain .

 

[BON PLAN]

What help ?
I still don't see how France helped us.
As far as vagueness is confirmed I was talking about that one specific statement about France "approving" the modifications

It's only very late than buyer need to have the source code for their planes. And they can't have it very often.... or only some parts...

I think when India baught M2000, this was not the case, so you didn't have the keys of the software of M2000 in 1999 (maybe not now, with the modernization). So without the french and DA authorisation, the keys for soft, and surely some help from french programmers, you and the israelis were not in position to upgrade so quickly your birds.

 

[BON PLAN]

It's not the force but the sentiment that counts.

I don't think we send our newer and not fully operationnal Carrier just for that at this precise time. The Charles de Gaulle was there, as quite every year (Garruda exercise), as usual.

I don't remember there was a special (or not special) pressure from France. At least in France quite no one spoke about that.

 

[BON PLAN]

according to me , here "approving" the modifications means providing the source codes ............at the time of war we will not wait for any french approval ........we will use our planes with or without permission of France .


may be i am wrong but according to me we can not integrate any
weapon or electronic system like lightening pods or anything without source codes of that plane , i think mr yamdoot has Good knowledge about Fighter planes ..............................
@Yumdoot ji please explain .

You're right.

And with the latest planes (with numeric buses), as with the latest cars, all is connecting together, so it's more difficult now to integrate a new equipment than before.

 

[Rahul Singh]

OK.

But india was not afraid by a medium carrier with a few Rafale (at those time only able to make limited AtoA) and some super etendard.....
And our carrier is very often in may in the indian ocean.

In 2002 we had our most threatening terrorist attack in history that is on our Parliament. So what was expected of us? We had put our army on border to pressurise Pakistan to stop its intelligence agency sponsored terrorist attacks in India. And here your Government puts your only carrier in Arabian sea to stop us from using oversea airspace to attack Pakistan. Now that was your seriousness towards world peace as well as our genuine national concerns! So why won't an Indian get irritated at it?

 

[Scarface]

It's only very late than buyer need to have the source code for their planes. And they can't have it very often.... or only some parts...

I think when India baught M2000, this was not the case, so you didn't have the keys of the software of M2000 in 1999 (maybe not now, with the modernization). So without the french and DA authorisation, the keys for soft, and surely some help from french programmers, you and the israelis were not in position to upgrade so quickly your birds.

We had the Mirage since the early/mid-80s , so maybe 15 years down the line during Kargil we already had the source codes for it,there is no documentation of such old deals readily available on the Internet so I can't even read up on it , I did try to search for it.

I don't think we send our newer and not fully operationnal Carrier just for that at this precise time. The Charles de Gaulle was there, as quite every year (Garruda exercise), as usual.

I don't remember there was a special (or not special) pressure from France. At least in France quite no one spoke about that.

http://www.thehindu.com/2002/07/04/stories/2002070407221200.htm

According to above source the French jets also ran air patrols on the India-Pak coastline and created a buffer between the two of us.
Even if it did happen to be in the Arabian Sea ,this clearly was a heavy handed move.

according to me , here "approving" the modifications means providing the source codes ............at the time of war we will not wait for any french approval ........we will use our planes with or without permission of France .


may be i am wrong but according to me we can not integrate any
weapon or electronic system like lightening pods or anything without source codes of that plane , i think mr yamdoot has Good knowledge about Fighter planes ..............................
@Yumdoot ji please explain .

It does make sense but the upgrades weren't very intrusive , the LGBs were modded dumb bombs and the M2KH already came to India with ALTIS targeting pods,either way,not locking us out of our aircraft's systems does not qualify as helping us.
It qualifies as not sabotaging us.

 

[BON PLAN]

In 2002 we had our most threatening terrorist attack in history that is on our Parliament. So what was expected of us? We had put our army on border to pressurise Pakistan to stop its intelligence agency sponsored terrorist attacks in India. And here your Government puts your only carrier in Arabian sea to stop us from using oversea airspace to attack Pakistan. Now that was your seriousness towards world peace as well as our genuine national concerns! So why won't an Indian get irritated at it?

Honnestly I don't remember there was special tension between France and India at those time.
Our carrier goes quite every year in indian ocean.... I think it was only a diplomatic signal.

 

[Bornubus]

In kargil the only help came from Israel and Russia assured us to provide every support including PG Arty shells (Krasnopol) at short notice without any official Babudom.

There was one other unidentified friendly country which gave us satellite image @ Rs 30,000 per frame, which was costly but very helpful.

Later our ISRO took it as a challenge and now we have variety of Spy satellites.


So other shouldn't get their Frenchies in a twist.

 

[Bornubus]

I said this before and saying this now, Rafale was one the most stupid deal in our procurement history, I am happy its capped at only 36, which is also doubtful.


Whereas, Russians offered us Mig 35 with AESA which would superior to any Aircraft what PLAF and Paki operates apart from quick induction by 2020.

 

[BON PLAN]

So other shouldn't get their Frenchies in a twist.

I said this before and saying this now, Rafale was one the most stupid deal in our procurement history, I am happy its capped at only 36, which is also doubtful.


Whereas, Russians offered us Mig 35 with AESA which would superior to any Aircraft what PLAF and Paki operates apart from quick induction by 2020.

Rafale is the indian choice. If you think it's an idiotic choice :
1) Indian top brass are idiots. But who elected them ?
or
2) You are an idiot.

 

[BON PLAN]

In kargil the only help came from Israel and Russia assured us to provide every support including PG Arty shells (Krasnopol) at short notice without any official Babudom.

There was one other unidentified friendly country which gave us satellite image @ Rs 30,000 per frame, which was costly but very helpful.

Later our ISRO took it as a challenge and now we have variety of Spy satellites.


So other shouldn't get their Frenchies in a twist.

You are re writing the real history. The only you will convinced is your self. Not so bad after all.

 

[Bornubus]

Rafale is the indian choice. If you think it's an idiotic choice :
1) Indian top brass are idiots. But who elected them ?
or
2) You are an idiot.

You are making a fool out of yourself, it's not just me but several ex serviceman who are against this deal, Rafale was rejected in the evaluation itself, it made a surprise entry again under the pathetic and corrupt UPA govt.

And selection a weapon system or Aircraft is not just depend on the weapon itself but there are several other factors, the previous govt wanted to diversify our procurement to break the Russians monopoly but it seems they failed miserably, neither US gave us any TOT and later whole MMRCA got screwed.

As of now, our most trusted defense partners are Israel and Russians.

 

[Bornubus]

You are re writing the real history. The only you will convinced is your self. Not so bad after all.

You can refute it right here, instead of blabbering.

 

[BON PLAN]

You are making a fool out of yourself, it's not just me but several ex serviceman who are against this deal, Rafale was rejected in the evaluation itself, it made a surprise entry again under the pathetic and corrupt UPA govt.

And selection a weapon system or Aircraft is not just depend on the weapon itself but there are several other factors, the previous govt wanted to diversify our procurement to break the Russians monopoly but it seems they failed miserably, neither US gave us any TOT and later whole MMRCA got screwed.

As of now, our most trusted defense partners are Israel and Russians.

The rejection of Rafale is a joke.
At the end it is the L1.
And when after MMRCA cancelation, India ask for 36 again. And some others after.....

Israeli : OK. Unfortunately, thanks to USA.... they don't produce top fighters no more.

Russia : you can't get all of your eggs in the same basket. And Russia is also the first supplier of China. JF17 engine is.... a russian one ! what a nice partner....

Bad loser you are.

 

[Bahamut]

@BON PLAN Can we upgrade to short finned Barracuda by paying a bit more with full ToT?

 

[airtel]

@BON PLAN Can we upgrade to short finned Barracuda by paying a bit more with full ToT?

In 2005, India chose the Scorpène design; purchased six submarines for US$ 3 billion (source wikipedia )...............while Australia bought 12 submarines ( short finned Barracuda) for 43 billion $ in 2016 .

how your proposal is possible ??yes there are some inflation but not this much ..

 

[Bahamut]

In 2005, India chose the Scorpène design; purchasing six submarines for US$ 3 billion (source wikipedia )...............while Australia bought 12 submarines ( short finned Barracuda) for 43 billion $ in 2016 .

how your proposal is possible ??yes there are some inflation but not this much .... your proposal is impossible .

We can do a combined deal like with limited ToT and some made in India clause for short finned barracude instead of scorpene let say 6 with 2 made in France, 36 rafale along with secound hand M2K from Peru or Qatar and 36 NH 90 or Super Puma ASW variant for a say 15-20$ billion .We can add 5$ billionj more for Mistral Amphibious Assault ship .It will bring important job to France and will help manufacturing with probably more client from South Asia similarly to Su 30 MK series ,that is if France see the long term game .