IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN Can we upgrade to short finned Barracuda by paying a bit more with full ToT?

Not totally :
- Scorpene is a 2000 tons sub. Shortfin a 4000 tons one.
- Scorpene has a "classical" propeller. Shortfin a jet pump. I'm afraid it has to be thinked before buiding the hull and not improved after being built. Probably No Way.
- Shortfin will have from the beginning a real and native capacity to bring divers and their materiel. Scorpene Not.
- Sonar suite upgrade: Probably yes.
- AIP : not the same generation and not the same power. I think India would prefer a french help to develop it's own AIP.... Scorpene leaks may help you a lot on this subject....
- I don't know if indian Scorpene has the capacity to embark Scalp Naval....(but the proposal to Poland was made with this capacity, so it desn't seem a hard point). Shortfin as a Barracuda derrivative YES.

 

[BON PLAN]

In 2005, India chose the Scorpène design; purchased six submarines for US$ 3 billion (source wikipedia )...............while Australia bought 12 submarines ( short finned Barracuda) for 43 billion $ in 2016 .

how your proposal is possible ??yes there are some inflation but not this much ..

Are we sure to compare same things ?

Like always, how is the support, the training, the ToT, the weapons range, the offsets, the base accomodation, the dock upgrade ? ....

Scorpene is a medium sub. And only 2 of 6 has AIP in the Indian deal.

Shortin is a heavy one (for a classical sub) and all 12 has a AIP. And for the Australian deal this "budget" was given for the entire life of the subs : ie until 2065.... never heard such things for India.

 

[BON PLAN]

We can do a combined deal like with limited ToT and some made in India clause for short finned barracude instead of scorpene let say 6 with 2 made in France, 36 rafale along with secound hand M2K from Peru or Qatar and 36 NH 90 or Super Puma ASW variant for a say 15-20$ billion .We can add 5$ billionj more for Mistral Amphibious Assault ship .It will bring important job to France and will help manufacturing with probably more client from South Asia similarly to Su 30 MK series ,that is if France see the long term game .

Is it Christmas ?

 

[airtel]

Are we sure to compare same things ?

Like always, how is the support, the training, the ToT, the weapons range, the offsets, the base accomodation, the dock upgrade ? ....

Scorpene is a medium sub. And only 2 of 6 has AIP in the Indian deal.

Shortin is a heavy one (for a classical sub) and all 12 has a AIP. And for the Australian deal this "budget" was given for the entire life of the subs : ie until 2065.... never heard such things for India.

Indians are operating submarines for decades so we can manage training .............AIP systems of
Scorpene is developed by DRDO so why we would pay for it ?

there is a price difference because both submarines are different with different capabilities .

 

[Bahamut]

Not totally :
- Scorpene is a 2000 tons sub. Shortfin a 4000 tons one.
- Scorpene has a "classical" propeller. Shortfin a jet pump. I'm afraid it has to be thinked before buiding the hull and not improved after being built. Probably No Way.
- Shortfin will have from the beginning a real and native capacity to bring divers and their materiel. Scorpene Not.
- Sonar suite upgrade: Probably yes.
- AIP : not the same generation and not the same power. I think India would prefer a french help to develop it's own AIP.... Scorpene leaks may help you a lot on this subject....
- I don't know if indian Scorpene has the capacity to embark Scalp Naval....(but the proposal to Poland was made with this capacity, so it desn't seem a hard point). Shortfin as a Barracuda derrivative YES.

I am talking about completely junking the scorpene deal ,say we pay addtional 4$ billion along with 3$ bilion already payed and ask for 6 with full ToT and 2 build in france .6$ billion for 36 rafale limited ToT and 1$ for upgrade secound hand M2K.3$ billion for 40 NH 90 NFH limited ToT .Another 4$ for 12 A 330 MRTT no ToT and another 5 $ billion for Mistral, 2 build in France and 4 in India full ToT and 4$ billion for FREMM ASW variant with same no and full ToT and 1$ for NVG with full ToT and production.Total around 26$ billion ,but we pay with soft loan .
Also does Short finned come with a non magnetic hull?

 

[airtel]

i think we should not buy more foreign submarines ..............instead we should buy components of modern submarines from foreign countries and then integrate them with Indian components according to our requirements .

this will be a cheaper better option .

 

[Bahamut]

i think we should not buy more foreign submarines ..............instead of that we should buy components of modern submarines from foreign countries and then integrate them with Indian components according to our requirements .

this will be a cheaper better option .

Sub are not like planes ,components are individual designed to fit in it plus most producer use different standard and thus many times the are just not compatible , even if compatible it takes a lot of time and money get them to work properly .

 

[Bahamut]

@BON PLAN
What happened to Andrasta Littoral Submarine

SSK Andrasta Littoral Submarine, France

21

Key Data




The 19-crew, 855t displacement, Andrasta submarine, announced by DCNS in September 2008, has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters, but remains a formidable adversary in blue (deep) water environments.

The submarine is named after Andrasta, the Celtic goddess of war whose name means victorious or invincible. The prime contractor, DCNS, considers that the Andrasta has no equivalent for littoral missions in terms of manoeuvrability and stealth.

Andrasta submarine design
The submarine design draws heavily on the proven configuration and systems adopted for the Scorpene family and has about 70% commonality with the Scorpene. The Andrasta surfaced displacement is 855t compared to the 1,790t to 2,010t displacement of the Scorpene. The submarine incorporates the same level of safety, stealth signatures and systems integration as the Scorpene.

"The SSK Andrasta submarine has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters."
The Andrasta can lurk on the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 100m. At a speed of 4kt the range is more than 3,000nm and more than 1,800nm at 8kt.

Andrasta is being presented to world markets at about half the cost of attack submarines such as the Scorpene. The Andrasta design can incorporate extra performance options which are not mandatory for littoral missions but which customer countries may require, without degrading the submarine’s efficiency.

For specials operations, the Andrasta has a deployment airlock for combat swimmers, electronic warfare and intelligence gathering systems.

Andrasta missions
The submarine missions cover anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other ships or maritime assets. The Andrasta is equipped to communicate easily with other assets and command centres.

Hull design
The double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics. An X-configuration rudder has independently operated surfaces for a high level of manoeuvrability including a small turning radius.

The small hull helps contribute to the submarine's stealth characteristics. The submarine has a diving depth to 200m and a submerged endurance of five days. It also has a very low acoustic and visual signature.

Command and control
The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy

The combat management system is integrated with the sonar and other sensors (optical, optronic, electronic support measures, radar) and carries out the location and identification of vessels, target tracking, tactical analysis, decision making, action management, exchange of tactical data via datalinks, the control of weapons systems and engagement of targets.

"Andrasta's double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics."
The submarine is equipped with high-precision navigation and surveillance systems for operation in littoral waters. Surveillance missions can be successfully carried out while the submarine is at rest on the seabed.

Weapons
The Andrasta can accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes such as the Black Shark, anti-ship missiles such as the Exocet SM-39 and a mine-laying system. The torpedoes and missiles are stored and carried in the six forward torpedo tubes. The small hull size of the submarine does not accommodate torpedoes and missiles for reload.

Special forces
The Andrasta submarines, which can carry two passengers plus a team of six divers, can be deployed for special forces missions which gives the Andrasta an enhanced attack capability comparable to larger submarines. The submarine is fitted with a lock-out / lock-in chamber for combat swimmers.

SMX
SMX-21
The multirole, reconfigurable SMX-21 submarine concept was first displayed by DCN (now DCNS) at the 2002 Euronaval show in Paris in October 2002. The twin-hulled design, with a hull that displaces only 2,700 tons, is similar in configuration to the Typhoon-class SSBN though with a flatter body, with both separate hulls being contained within a single outer pressure hull. The wide body of the submarine is designed to allow extensive storage space between the hulls for non-penetrating masts and slot-in reconfigurable slanted launcher 'Mission Packs' without imposing on the accommodation and propulsion sections as a conventional layout does.

Packs can be configured to meet a variety of mission requirements, with each pack containing a mix of up to 10 weapons such as torpedoes (both lightweight and heavyweight), missiles for AAW and ASM tasks, and cruise missiles with a land attack capability. Total Mission Pack load out is 30 weapons, though the boat also has conventional bow tubes to fire both torpedoes and missiles and a forward bay on the underside of the submarine for mine delivery.

A DDS is mounted externally for use as stowage space for a special forces delivery system and carriage of recoverable UUVs and expendable unmanned platforms. Other features of the design are pump-jet propulsors and innovative control surfaces, while sensor systems also include retractable towed linear arrays combined within a fully integrated combat management system.



SMX-22
The SMX-22 design is comprised of a mother boat and two mini-submarines in a networked system. The SMX-22's design was first unveiled at the Euronaval 2004 exhibition, and combines three submarines into one underwater vessel with a 3,700-tonne displacement. It comprises a command unit nicknamed NCW, and twin operational units nicknamed OPS. The NCW unit centralises tactical data, exchanges information with a Navy's Fleet Command HQ, sails the OPS units towards the operational theatre, and ensures energy production. It is also the base for the OPS unit crew between two missions. Each OPS submarine, displacing less than 500 tonnes, is fitted with a mission-specific modular payload before leaving the harbour. With no energy production facility, the OPS unit, equipped with an AIP module, is thus extremely silent. Each missionis limited to a few days.



SMX-23 Andrasta

Length 49 m
Surface displacement 855 metric tons
Speed when submerged > 15 knots
Submerged endurance 5 days
Depth of immersion > 200 m
Operational distance > 3000 nautical miles
Crew 19 members
ARMARIS is offering a new low-cost coastal SSK concept, called the SMX-23 Andrasta, which is designed for safe, precise navigation in shallow waters and for missions ranging from special operations to intelligence gathering and mine-laying. A direct descendant of the Scorpene, this class offers stealth, agility and power. SMX-23 is a small stealthy coastal submarine, combining powerful sensors and weapons to counter surface and underwater threats. It is "ideal" for first time buyers.


According to Jean Gauthier, naval architect within DCN's submarine design department, SMX-23 has been conceived "to address a perceived market requirement for a robust, affordable and supportable submarine, capable of performing a range of littoral defence missions. It is clear to us that while many navies are attracted to the advantages offered by conventional submarines (SSKs) in the 1,400 to 1,800-ton displacement range, not all have the financial or technical resources to operate boats of such cost and complexity".

Designed for all types of navies - irrespective of whether they want to develop a submarine capacity or reinforce existing resources with a product of unrivaled quality in coastal operations - the Andrasta creates a new category in the panorama of conventional submarines. Specifically optimized to operate in coastal waters, the theater of operations of the future, the Andrasta-class submarine nevertheless remains a formidable adversary in deep waters. Its great similarity with the Scorpène-class submarine makes it a modern, risk-free design. Capable of carrying out most of the missions traditionally entrusted to conventional submarines, the Andrasta deters all potential aggressors from operating in the coastal waters under its surveillance.

Capable of most of the missions traditionally assigned to a conventional submarine, Andrasta deters any potential aggressor to come and operate in coastal waters where it stands guard. This class of submarine proves to be particularly suited to carrying out special operations or information-gathering assignments, missions of vital importance even in times of peace. Its new-generation combat system, and its ability to make use of heavyweight weapon systems such as torpedoes or missiles, make it a formidable weapon in its own right. Drawing massively on the solutions tried and tested on the Scorpène, the coherence of the architectural choices with the missions entrusted to it make it a product offering a reduced cost of acquisition and ownership.



SMX 24

Tonnage 3450 tons on the surfaces
Length 88.8 meters
maximum Depth 350 meters
Speed max in diving 20 knotss
(actually estimate +25/30)
Autonomy in diving 30 days
Crew 22 to 31 sailors, according to mission
18 commandos maximum
or 12 men frogs)
weapons 38 carried according to configuration & mission
Modules 25 different are possible
(commandos, recognition, anti ship, etc)
SMX-24 is a concept for a submarine that would be in service about 2020. Its size and capability fall between today's biggest diesel-electric boats and the smallest nukes: the 3450-ton boat would have an all fuel-cell propulsion system, would be capable of 20 kt submerged and could stay underwater for 30 days. The core vessel would have interchangeable modules for weapons or special forces equipment. The stub wings carry tip-mounted propulsors for high speeds - allowing the central pumpjet to be sized for cruise - and fighter-like pylons for fuel tanks - above the wings on the model - and weapons.


The DCNS-designed SMX 24 next-generation submarine will include 'plug-and-fight' hardware enabling the boat to be tailored at will for each mission. DCNS has identified 25 modules suitable for 'plug-and-fight' according to needs. These include the submarine's weapons (mines, missiles, etc.), sensors and performance-enhancing add-ons (offering greater speed, manoeuvrability or endurance, as the case may be). The modules will be housed in the wings and sail and under the operations room. Different combinations of modules result in high-performance SMX 24 configurations with capabilities tailored to specific missions.

All DCNS-designed warships combine highly modular design and production. The SMX 24 offers new prospects and a new level of modularity. This concept sub exercise has enabled DCNS to identify both architectural and technological solutions meeting the future needs of client navies. Increased modularity means a lower cost of ownership because 'plug-and-fight' modules can be shared by multiple submarines and crews. Note also that the SMX 24 requires a crew of just 22.



SMX 25

Length overall 109 m
Max. speed, semi-surfaced 38 knots
Displacement, surface 2,850 tonnes
Displacement, submerged 4,560 tonnes
Speed, submerged 10 knots
Endurance, patrol 30 days
For this concept ship project, DCNS focused on how to get what is essentially a conventional submarine to a theatre of operations as quickly as possible. Powered by three gas turbines driving three water jets, the SMX-25 submersible is designed to achieve a sustained surface speed of 38 knots. Despite the fact that the SMX-25 can deploy very quickly, it is essentially a conventional submarine. On reaching its designated patrol area, the SMX-25 will operate like other submarines using the same types of sensors and resources.


In the innovative semi-surfaced configuration, with only the upper portion of the sail above water, the boat will be able to use the same sorts of sensors (including an aircraft surveillance radar) and weapons as a conventional surface combatant (i.e. anti-ship, land-strike and anti-air missiles launched from vertical silos) while maintaining an extremely discrete radar signature. The SMX-25 will be equipped to deploy combat swimmers and their delivery vehicles, commandos, unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs

 

[airtel]

- AIP : not the same generation and not the same power. I think India would prefer a french help to develop it's own AIP.... Scorpene leaks may help you a lot on this subject....

Indian Aip is already developed >>
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/drdo-aip-fuel-cell.75150/

The MESMA AIP from DCNS uses heat generated through combustion of ethanol and stored oxygen at a pressure of 60 atmospheres to power a conventional steam turbine power plant. It doesn't use fuel cells.

on the other hand
The DRDO AIP uses fuel cell technology. A fuel cell converts chemical energy from a fuel into electricity through a chemical reaction of positively charged hydrogen ions with oxygen or another oxidizing agent

DRDO AIP is better than your 1st generation MESMA AIP (but not better than AIP of shortfin barcuda ).

DRDO's AIP uses PAFC, which has some advantages over other fuel cell types. PAFCs offer a broader choice of fuel being more tolerant of fuel impurities. It can operate using reformed hydrocarbon fuels (Methanol) or biogas.

PAFC operating temperatures (150 to 200 °C) are higher and as a result they generate steam as byproduct, besides electric power for propulsion. The steam can be used to meet other heating requirements, pushing up operating efficiency to as high as 70%.

The MESMA has significant moving parts, which may radiate detectable noise. Ultimately, the maintenance and crew training requirements of the MESMA steam turbine system are significant - adding to cost. The burning process yields exhaust carbon dioxide which needs to be expelled behind the sub at any depth perhaps making it vulnerable to advanced airborne and ASW ship sniffing sensors.


DRDO is Also developing 2nd generation AIP .

..........................................................................................................................

 

[harsh]

http://idrw.org/deep-dive-why-scorpene-data-leak-does-not-compromise-security-of-project-75/

 

[harsh]

Deep dive: Why Scorpene data leak does not compromise security of Project-75

To coordinate next year’s Golden Jubilee celebrations of the induction of the first submarine in the Navy, more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month. This group, which includes three-star officers who have spent decades with submarines, went abuzz at midnight last Tuesday after The Australian newspaper reported that 22,400 pages of documents pertaining to India’s Scorpene submarine programme, called Project-75, had been leaked. The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days. In the end, there was near unanimity that while such data being put out publicly was not a good thing, it did not affect Project-75 in any significant way. Under Project-75, French company DCNS provides design and technology to public sector Mazagon Docks to make six Scorpene submarines, the first of which, INS Kalvari was put out for sea trials earlier this year. The hulls of the other five submarines have been cast, and they are scheduled to be commissioned by 2020. Captain J S Malik, a retired submariner with 32 years of experience who served as Director of Submarine Operations in Navy Headquarters, said, “Most of this data is generic and belongs to Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQR) provided by the Navy to the French company, and ‘binding data’ for the product. It does not pertain to any specific submarine, and has limited usage for the adversary.” But Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Ministry officials have repeatedly asserted that they are “prepared for the worst-case scenario”. What could be the areas of concern for the Navy?

« India And US Agree To Share Military Bases: Your 10-Point Guide To New DealArmed eye in the sky: India looking to buy 100 Predator drones from the US » Deep dive: Why Scorpene data leak does not compromise security of Project-75 Published August 30, 2016 SOURCE: ENS To coordinate next year’s Golden Jubilee celebrations of the induction of the first submarine in the Navy, more than 100 retired officers of the submarine branch started a WhatsApp group last month. This group, which includes three-star officers who have spent decades with submarines, went abuzz at midnight last Tuesday after The Australian newspaper reported that 22,400 pages of documents pertaining to India’s Scorpene submarine programme, called Project-75, had been leaked. The veterans studied the few leaked pages — with redacted data — put out by the paper, and intense discussions followed in the group for the first three days. In the end, there was near unanimity that while such data being put out publicly was not a good thing, it did not affect Project-75 in any significant way. Under Project-75, French company DCNS provides design and technology to public sector Mazagon Docks to make six Scorpene submarines, the first of which, INS Kalvari was put out for sea trials earlier this year. The hulls of the other five submarines have been cast, and they are scheduled to be commissioned by 2020. Captain J S Malik, a retired submariner with 32 years of experience who served as Director of Submarine Operations in Navy Headquarters, said, “Most of this data is generic and belongs to Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements (NSQR) provided by the Navy to the French company, and ‘binding data’ for the product. It does not pertain to any specific submarine, and has limited usage for the adversary.” But Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Ministry officials have repeatedly asserted that they are “prepared for the worst-case scenario”. What could be the areas of concern for the Navy? A part of the leaked papers. According to Commodore A Jai Singh, a retired submariner who was associated with Project-75 preparations at Navy Headquarters at the turn of the century, “the only thing, which if leaked out from the supplier, that can really compromise the operation of our submarines is the source code of the Fire Control System. It is a top secret thing which the DCNS doesn’t even share with the company providing the weapons. The Australian hasn’t claimed that it is in the possession of the software code, and besides that, everything else is not really going to matter.” He added, “Just the generic technical specifications are little indication of a submarine’s operational capability. The element of stealth and superiority is how a navy operates its submarines with the equipment on board and therein lie the vital elements of secrecy essential for submarine operations.” Three top Navy sources have confirmed to The Indian Express that the documents put out so far are not the same as the ones with the Navy. These are dated versions from a period well before the signing of the contract with DCNS in 2005. Navy officials assert that “we are no longer a buyer’s Navy but a builder’s Navy. Only six navies have successfully built ballistic missile submarines, including India. There is no need to be overly concerned as we have the capability of tweaking the design, and the weapon and sensor deployment capability to mitigate any risk from information being compromised.” The Australian has reported being in possession of 10 types of secret information which compromises the Indian programme. The Indian Express went over each of them with experts to figure out what they mean, and how they could affect the Navy. Stealth capabilities Stealth capabilities pertain mainly to the acoustic signature of a submarine, and is a function of many things, including the submarine’s self-noise levels, the propeller configuration, the speed regimes underwater, the noise generated by on-board machinery, and the acoustic damping techniques used both on the hull and within the submarine. The harmonics produced by no two submarines are the same. These spot frequencies, unlike the range given in the documents, are recorded by special equipment after a submarine goes for sea-trials, and kept in the Ship Data Book, a top secret document kept with the captain of the submarine. This data is re-recorded after every major refit, as the harmonics change. In the case of a European design like the Scorpene, there would not be much to choose between contemporary designs of a relatively similar size which would operate in the same frequency ranges. Frequencies at which submarines gain intelligence Most modern submarine Electronic Search Measures (ESM) systems operate in a frequency range of 0.2 to 40 GHz, so to learn that Scorpenes operate in a similar frequency band is no compromise. Similarly, submarines are fitted with navigational radars with commercial applications, which operate in a particular frequency range worldwide. A modern submarine rarely, if ever, transmits at sea either from its radars or its sonars, or even its communication sets. A Naval officer who commanded a submarine for six years said that he used an active sonar only thrice in his tenure, that too only to test the equipment and validate the training of his staff.

Noise levels submarines could reach at certain speeds Noise levels are a function of the submarine speed and the speed of rotation of a propeller, which is recorded during sea trials and noted in the Ship Data Book. The data put out is the NSQR limits given by the Navy to the designers that it should not exceed so many decibels at various speeds. Diving depths, range and endurance Range and endurance of all submarines are in the open domain. While specific depths may not be listed in the open specifications, most submarines the world over operate in a more or less similar depth envelope. Endurance of any submarine is dependent on its maximum patrol period, which determines the quantity of fuel carried. It varies between 50 and 60 days in the case of India’s submarines. Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data Every submarine is demagnetised after construction and undergoes trials at the underwater ranges at Goa. The data for even the first submarine has not been recorded so far. This data is updated even if a submarine has stayed in a dry dock for a prolonged period. Rarely has a submarine been detected by an MRASW aircraft fitted with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector. Since submarines do not transmit, they are not vulnerable to detection in the e-m spectrum. Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and combat system The Navy has not selected the torpedo for the six submarines after the contract for Black Shark torpedoes from the Italian company WASS was cancelled following the VVIP helicopter controversy. Based on the choice of weapons and sensors on board, and the operating philosophy, the combat system would be programmed by the Navy, so there would be very little to be gained from the basic characteristics of the system. The secrecy lies in their programming by the Navy. Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope Modern submarines rarely plane to periscope depth except for the minimum time required to charge their batteries. This duration is also a function of the submarine’s mission profile, as well as the tactical exploitation of the platform in the prevailing operational scenario. Knowing the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope actually discloses little or no information about what the submarine is doing or intends to do. Propeller’s noise specifications Each propeller generates its own harmonics of noise which is determined after extensive trials, while the data put out is the generic NSQR data. Even a minor chip of 2-3 mm completely changes propeller noise. The propeller generates different noise at different speeds at varying depths and varying hydrological conditions. The submarine is equipped with cavitation meters, to assess the noise level and accordingly vary its speed or depth to find the most suitable depth and speed profile to operate at. Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces A submarine is unlikely to surface in an operational deployment, and will do so if required, only in friendly waters. In an emergency, if a submarine has no choice but to surface, its visual presence will be easier to detect than its acoustic signature. Weapons data Weapons used in peacetime during training and during war operate on totally different frequencies. The war-shots are launched on frequency hopping mechanism, unlike peacetime firing. A veteran submariner gave the example of the only test war-shot fired by him in 2003 off the coast of Mumbai which could not be recorded by any of the half a dozen Indian ships monitoring the firing, despite knowing the exact timing and the location of the target. Moreover, the Pakistan Navy is also in possession of the same Exocet missile which these Scorpenes will use.

http://idrw.org/deep-dive-why-scorpene-data-leak-does-not-compromise-security-of-project-75/

 

[Bornubus]

T

And Russia is also the first supplier of China. JF17 engine is.... a russian one ! what a nice partner....

Bad loser you are.

Cut the crap dude, France is in bed with circumcised Pakis for years.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

They also screwed France when they share Crotale with Chini and now you have HQ 7, a low cost copy. Just like they transfer Soviet Jets and Mi 24 (Afghan Defectors) to China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotale_(missile)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III

_______________________________________________________________

It is ur jets and Missiles which remained a threat for long to our AC. Russians never gave them any such systems.


------------------------------

Pakistan Air Force Mirage-III
NO. 8 SQUADRON'S "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE" SUCCEEDS
1500 HOURS - 30 MAY 1995
Flying a few feet above the Arabian Sea, the two Mirage pilots are impressed by the awesome silhouette of the nuclear-powered Abraham Lincoln as the carrier looms gradually above the sea curvature, dead on the nose. The mission: To penetrate successfully the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences and, to deliver a simulated Exocet guided missile attack on "the world's largest warship". The memorable sortie was flown during "Inspired Alert" - a Pakistan-US joint exercise. O.C. No. 8 Squadron, strictly following the ground rules, planned and led a simultaneous multidirectional attack profile against CVN-72, in an attempt to overload its defence. As two of the three Mirage pairs turned away, the lead Mirage carried out a simulated Exocet "launch" from several miles away, without meeting any of the ship's fighters. The Squadron Commander and his wingman later did a friendly fly by at the carrier's side, perhaps just as surprised as the Lincoln's crews, at the missed interception.
Wing Commander Asim Suleiman Leader and O.C. No 8 Squadron
Flight Lieutenant Ahmed Hassan Wingman
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting incident: In one of the "Inspired Alert" exercises, the PAF pilots were supposed to try to get "as close to the aircraft carrier" as possible without detection, and accomplish other tasks. USN was tasked to detect Pakistani intruders and USN fighters (F-14s) were to intercept them. Both sides had complete freedom in selecting their strategy. The USN was very confident that the PAF Mirages would not be able to get too close, mainly because their RADARs and other equipment were superior to anything Pakistan had. To their amazement, not only did 2 Mirage fighters get "as close as possible", they even flew low beside the aircraft carrier, "buzzing" the deck.
They stayed undetected by flying dangerously low over the sea under RADAR cover, and by creating diversions and fooling them into thinking the main intruders were coming from a different direction (other Mirages, I think). By the time they realized that 2 Mirages had made it close, it was too late to interecept them. This forced even senior USN pilots to react.
I read this story in a book about PAF exercises, but I have forgotten its name. I have also forgotten many other details, like the name of the carrier, the year of the exercise and the exact Mirage type (III or V). All I remember is that they had an artist's concept picture on a full page, showing two Mirages zooming towards the deck of a USN aircraft carrier and the sun setting in the distance.

 

[Bahamut]

EXPLAINED : HOW AIR INDEPENDENT PROPULSION (AIP) WORKS!
Posted on July 6, 2016 by N.R.P
INTRODUCTION
Ever since submarines become the principal weapon of naval warfare, designers have focused on making them quieter and increasing their underwater endurance. Traditional diesel-electric submarines need to surface frequently to charge their batteries and have an underwater endurance of only a few days. As battery technology improved, the endurance of these submarines increased proportionally. But it was not enough to last them beyond a week. The introduction of Air Independent Propulsion (AIP), vastly improved the underwater endurance of these submarines and gave them a distinct advantage.

That is the reason we see a large number of navies queuing up to buy or build submarines with AIP systems. The best part is that AIP technology can be installed on existing older generation submarines by inserting a new hull section during a retrofit. This article will deal with the working, advantages, disadvantages and application of AIP in modern submarines.

Diesel-Electric Submarines


As their name suggests, Diesel-Electric submarines run on diesel and electricity. They have a large network of batteries which are charged by the diesel generator. They snorkel, which means, travelling just below the surface of the water with the periscope and the diesel generator exhaust pipe above the water surface. Once they charge their batteries, they dive into the ocean and run silently on battery power with the diesel generators shut down. After running for a few days underwater, the battery gets drained and these submarines have to surface again to recharge their batteries. Diesel-Electric submarines are also referred to as SSK (Sub Surface Hunter-Killer) by US Naval designation or popularly called as diesels.

A surfaced diesel-electric submarine

A snorkeling diesel-electric submarine
Why do we need AIP ?
While underwater, the batteries on board power the propeller and other electrical systems on board the submarine. These batteries run out of charge within 4-5 days and the sub needs recharge them. This is done by snorkeling, which exposes them to detection by enemy radars and makes them an easy target for hostile anti-submarine assets. Although modern snorkels are coated with radar absorbing paint and have a stealthy shaping, they are still detectable by high resolution radars. There are also sensors called diesel sniffers which can detect the exhaust emissions of the submarines diesel generators while snorkeling. A submarine which needs to surface every day, loses its element of surprise and increases its vulnerability to hostile anti-submarine assets.

Hence we need a system which can allow diesel-electric submarines to recharge their batteries without running their engines. This will allow them to continue sailing underwater and retain the element of surprise by remaining undetected. The system should also allow the SSKs to retain their extremely low noise signatures and should not compromise on the performance of the submarine. The system which permits all this is Air Independent Propulsion (AIP).

Although nuclear submarines offer far better endurance and speeds, they are unsuitable for the shallow littoral waters and most navies cannot afford to build and maintain them as they are very expensive. Also diesel submarines possess the advantage of being able to switch off thir engines completely and lie in wait unlike nuclear submarines whose reactors cannot be switched off at will. This combined with the ultra-quiet nature of modern diesel subs, has made AIP-equipped diesel subs a very attractive alternative for many countries. Many countries are operating both nuclear and diesel-powered submarines for their respective advantages. Navies who wish to operate non-nuclear subs with long-range and large weapons payload are now option for large diesel submarines equipped with AIP, which provide the closest alternative to nuclear powered submarines. Some examples are the Soryu class of Japan, Type 216being developed by Germany and the Shortfin Barracuda of France which will be operated by Australia.

WORKING
Before we can understand the working of AIP systems, we need to understand the meaning of a few engineering terms.

Closed Cycle Engine : A heat engine in which the working substance is continuously circulated and does not need replenishment.

Steam Turbine : A type of turbine in which a high velocity jet of steam is used to turn the turbine blades which in turn rotates the shaft. The shaft can be connected to an alternator to generate electricity or to a propeller to move a ship/submarine.

Working fluid : It is a pressurized gas or fluid that is used to absorb/transmit energy in a thermodynamic system.

Scrubbing : The process of removing certain gases from the exhaust by the usage of appropriate chemicals in a scrubber.

The types of AIP systems are

• Closed Cycle Diesel Engines
• Closed Cycle Steam Turbines
• Sterling Cycle Engines
• Fuel Cells

CLOSED CYCLE DIESEL ENGINES
This technology involves storing a supply of oxygen in the submarine in order to run a diesel engine while submerged. Liquid oxygen (LOX) is stored in tanks on board the submarine and sent to the diesel engine for combustion. Since they need to simulate the atmospheric oxygen concentration for the engines to run safely without getting damaged, the oxygen is mixed with an inert gas (usually argon) and then sent to the engine. The exhaust gases are cooled and scrubbed to extract any leftover oxygen and argon from them and the remaining gases are discharged into the sea after being mixed with seawater. The argon which is extracted from the exhaust is again sent into the diesel engine after being mixed with oxygen.

The main challenge with this technology is the storing of liquid oxygen safely on board the submarines. The Soviet subs which used this technology during the 1960s found them to be highly prone to fires and subsequently discontinued their usage. Closed Cycle Diesel AIP is hence not preferred for modern submarines even though it is comparatively cheaper and simplifies logistics by the use of standard diesel fuel.

CLOSED CYCLE STEAM TURBINES
Steam turbines make use of a source of energy to heat water and convert it into steam in order to the run the turbine. In nuclear powered submarines, the reactors provide the heat in order to convert water into steam. But in conventional closed cycle steam propulsion, a non-nuclear energy source is used to do the same. The French MESMA(Module d’Energie Sous-Marine Autonome / Autonomous Submarine Energy Module ) is the only such system available and it makes use of ethanol and oxygen as energy sources. The combustion of ethanol and oxygen under high pressure is used togenerate steam. The steam generated is the working fluid and is used to run the turbine. The high pressure combustion allows the exhaust carbon dioxide to be expelled outside into the sea at any depth without making use of a compressor.

MESMA AIP
The advantage of MESMA is it’s higher power output when compared to the alternatives which allows higher underwater speeds but it’s major drawback is it’slower efficiency. Also the rate of oxygen consumption is said to be very high and these systems are very complex. These drawbacks make several navies opt for sterling cycle and fuel cell alternatives.

STERLING CYCLE ENGINES
A Sterling Engine is a closed cycle engine with a working fluid which is permanently contained in the system. A source of energy is used to heat this working fluid, which in turn moves the pistons and runs the engine. The engine is coupled to a generator, which generates electricity and charges the battery. The source of energy used here is typically LOX as oxidizer and diesel fuel, which is burnt in order to generate heat for the working fluid. The exhaust is then scrubbed and released into the seawater.

Sterling AIP by Saab

A Sterling Engine (right) and the plugin module to be retrofitted on existing subs (left)
The advantage of using Sterling engines is the easy availability of diesel fuel and low refueling costs when compared with Fuel Cells. They are also quieter than MESMA and hence preferred by the Japanese for their Soryu class, Sweden for their Gotlandand Västergötland class and China for their Yuan class.

The main drawback is that they are relatively noisy when compared to Fuel Cells due to the presence of a large number of moving parts. They are also bulky when compared to Fuel Cells. The operating depth of a submarine using Sterling AIP is limited to 200 m when AIP is engaged.

 

[Bahamut]

FUEL CELLS
A Fuel Cell is a device which converts chemical energy into electricity. This is done using a fuel and an oxidizer. A typical fuel cell converts Hydrogen (fuel) and Oxygen(oxidizer) into electricity, with water and heat released as by-products. This is done by an electrolytic cell which consists of two electrodes, one positive (anode) and the other negative (cathode), separated by an electrolytic barrier. The reaction between the cathode and anode produces an electric current, which is used to charge the batteries. A chemical catalyst is used to speed up the reactions.

AIP sub
A Siemens PEM Fuel Cell
Phosphoric Acid Fuel Cells (PAFC) and Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cells (PEMFC) are presently used in submarines. Germany is said to be the world leader in developing and fielding this type of AIP, which is backed by the large number of export orders they have received. France is developing a new generation Fuel Cell AIP as a successor to its MESMA. India is another country which is developing a Fuel Cell AIP to be integrated on their submarines.




Working of a PEM Fuel Cell
Fuel cells are the most advanced and preferred AIP technology today. This is because of the major advantages they offer in stealthiness and power generation. They contribute to the stealthiness of the sub as Fuel Cells have almost no moving parts, which significantly reduces the acoustic signature of the sub. Fuel Cells can achieve an efficiency of over 80% under certain circumstances. They can also be scaled easily into large or small sizes depending on the displacement of the submarine. This is easier than developing different systems for each submarine class. Hydrogen Fuel Cells are also very environment friendly as they generate no exhaust fumes, which in turn eliminates the need to have special exhaust scrubbing and disposal machinery. The only drawbackis that they are expensive and complex.

ADVANTAGES OF A.I.P
The use of AIP on a diesel-electric submarine, greatly increases their underwater endurance, allowing them to continuously stay submerged for weeks without surfacing. Although the submarine eventually needs to surface to charge its batteries and their endurance is nowhere on-par with nuclear powered submarines, the vast increase in endurance offered by AIP gives them an advantage over non AIP equipped diesel-electric submarines. However AIP doesn’t give any advantage other than increased underwater advantage and it should not be assumed that AIP-equipped submarines will always defeat their non-AIP equipped counterparts.

In April 2006, a German Navy submarine U-32, equipped with a Siemens proton exchange membrane (PEM) compressed hydrogen fuel cell AIP, made a 2800 kmuninterrupted underwater journey without surfacing/snorkeling! This is in stark contrast to non-AIP equipped submarines which can cover only 500-800 km before they have to surface and recharge their batteries by running noisy diesel generators. Comparatively, a nuclear-powered submarine has unlimited underwater endurance!

File:.jpg
Unterseeboot U-32 of the German Navy
Again in 2013, U-32 set a record by traveling underwater continuously for 18 dayswithout surfacing! Comparatively, a non-AIP diesel sub has an underwater endurance of just 4-6 days before it has to surface. This shows that AIP-equipped diesel-electric submarines are far more capable than their non-AIP equipped counterparts when it comes to endurance.

AIP Usage Around The World
As of 2016, the following countries have developed their own AIP systems to be fitted on submarines.

Germany – Fuel Cell
Sweden – Stirling
Japan – Stirling
France – MESMA
Spain – Fuel Cell
India – Fuel Cell
Russia – Fuel Cell
People’s Republic of China – Stirling


LIMITATIONS OF AIP
Other than Fuel Cells, the 3 remaining technologies have a lot of moving parts which generate noise. This is not desirable as quietness is very essential for all submarines. So by using Stirling, MESMA and CCD AIP systems, submarines will be sacrificing some of their stealthiness for additional endurance.
Even though Fuel Cell AIP has many advantages, it is extremely expensive to procure and maintain them.
Submarines which use AIP need to sail at speeds of less than 10 kts in order to achieve exceptional endurance of 14-18 days as advertised. In comparison, a nuclear powered sub can travel for an unlimited distance at 30-35 kts without sacrificing endurance. So AIP equipped submarines cannot replace nuclear submarines when it comes to blue water or extended period operations.
COMBAT SCENARIO
The advantage offered by increased underwater endurance can be used for ‘ambushing’ an approaching fleet. In one such scenario, an AIP equipped submarine can roam near a strait, waiting for its target to approach. The sub will be running at ultra-quiet speeds of 2-4 knots for several weeks and then attack the target when it appears, using its torpedoes. Even though a non-AIP equipped sub can do the same thing, it’s waiting period, which is very essential for an underwater ambush, is significantly lesser.

In another scenario, an AIP equipped sub can roam near enemy territory for far longer compared to a non-AIP sub. Thus in this situation where intelligence is gathered and spy missions are performed, AIP gives these quiet diesel subs an advantage by allowing them to loiter for weeks without the need to surface.

CONCLUSION
The thing to remember about AIP is that just because a submarine is equipped with that technology, it wont necessarily use them on every deployment. During regular patrols or in friendly territory, an AIP equipped submarine will snorkel often to recharge its batteries. Only when it is deployed operationally will it make use of AIP to increase its underwater endurance. This is because most of the fuels, oxidizers and other consumables used in AIP are quite expensive and it would not be economical to replenish them on a monthly basis.

The capacity and reliability of batteries is increasing due to extensive research being conducted in that field. The various AIP technologies mentioned will also see large-scale improvement in capabilities. These two technologies combined, will allow AIP equipped submarines of the future to stay underwater for months at a time and make them pseudo-nuclear submarines. This technology has a bright future and we will see more modern navies adopting it for their diesel-electric submarine fleets.

 

[rishivashista13]

What are the advantages that other submarines has over nuclear submarines ??
Is there any ?

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

 

[airtel]

What are the advantages that other submarines has over nuclear submarines ??
Is there any ?

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk

nuclear Submarines (especially Indian & Chinese) create more noise and can be detected easily .

 

[BON PLAN]

3$ billion for 40 NH 90 NFH limited ToT .Another 4$ for 12 A 330 MRTT no ToT and another 5 $ billion for Mistral, 2 build in France and 4 in India full ToT and 4$ billion for FREMM ASW variant with same no and full ToT and 1$ for NVG with full ToT and production.Total around 26$ billion

Assumption..... only assumption.

 

[BON PLAN]

@BON PLAN
What happened to Andrasta Littoral Submarine

A concept. It's only a concept, never ordered yet.

Personnaly I see no future for this small sub.

 

[BON PLAN]

Cut the crap dude, France is in bed with circumcised Pakis for years.

Whay is the last french weapon delivery date to Pakis?

Compare with same data for India.

= You find yourself your answer.

 

[BON PLAN]

Cut the crap dude, France is in bed with circumcised Pakis for years.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

They also screwed France when they share Crotale with Chini and now you have HQ 7, a low cost copy. Just like they transfer Soviet Jets and Mi 24 (Afghan Defectors) to China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotale_(missile)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_III

_______________________________________________________________

It is ur jets and Missiles which remained a threat for long to our AC. Russians never gave them any such systems.


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Pakistan Air Force Mirage-III
NO. 8 SQUADRON'S "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE" SUCCEEDS
1500 HOURS - 30 MAY 1995
Flying a few feet above the Arabian Sea, the two Mirage pilots are impressed by the awesome silhouette of the nuclear-powered Abraham Lincoln as the carrier looms gradually above the sea curvature, dead on the nose. The mission: To penetrate successfully the Carrier Task Force's early warning and perimeter defences and, to deliver a simulated Exocet guided missile attack on "the world's largest warship". The memorable sortie was flown during "Inspired Alert" - a Pakistan-US joint exercise. O.C. No. 8 Squadron, strictly following the ground rules, planned and led a simultaneous multidirectional attack profile against CVN-72, in an attempt to overload its defence. As two of the three Mirage pairs turned away, the lead Mirage carried out a simulated Exocet "launch" from several miles away, without meeting any of the ship's fighters. The Squadron Commander and his wingman later did a friendly fly by at the carrier's side, perhaps just as surprised as the Lincoln's crews, at the missed interception.
Wing Commander Asim Suleiman Leader and O.C. No 8 Squadron
Flight Lieutenant Ahmed Hassan Wingman
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interesting incident: In one of the "Inspired Alert" exercises, the PAF pilots were supposed to try to get "as close to the aircraft carrier" as possible without detection, and accomplish other tasks. USN was tasked to detect Pakistani intruders and USN fighters (F-14s) were to intercept them. Both sides had complete freedom in selecting their strategy. The USN was very confident that the PAF Mirages would not be able to get too close, mainly because their RADARs and other equipment were superior to anything Pakistan had. To their amazement, not only did 2 Mirage fighters get "as close as possible", they even flew low beside the aircraft carrier, "buzzing" the deck.
They stayed undetected by flying dangerously low over the sea under RADAR cover, and by creating diversions and fooling them into thinking the main intruders were coming from a different direction (other Mirages, I think). By the time they realized that 2 Mirages had made it close, it was too late to interecept them. This forced even senior USN pilots to react.
I read this story in a book about PAF exercises, but I have forgotten its name. I have also forgotten many other details, like the name of the carrier, the year of the exercise and the exact Mirage type (III or V). All I remember is that they had an artist's concept picture on a full page, showing two Mirages zooming towards the deck of a USN aircraft carrier and the sun setting in the distance.

Mirage III ....... it's all your are afraid of ?