IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

Navnit Kundu

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It's 7 billions € vs a GDP of more than 2000 billions.
GDP is not the same as fluid cash, it is an indicator of the value created, and value is created when sales are made. 7billion is not a small drop in the ocean, it is quite a significant lump-sum amount with a very high markup. Anyway, I am not an economics guy, I hope the deal happens, and I hope we arrive at a win win price/political arrangement. It's obviously stuck at the price negotiations so it's as good as done unless the price is too high.
 

tharun

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Do our scorpene submarines have pump jet propulsion?
And tell me difference between pump jet and shaft with skew propeller...
 

Screambowl

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Scorpene leaks: Another set of documents released
Malaysia Sun (ANI) Friday 26th August, 2016

Sydney [Australia], Aug. 25 (ANI): The Australian on Thursday uploaded new set of documents on the Indian Navy Scorpene Submarine on its website, with detailed description of its underwater warfare system.

This is the second set of documents on the vessels that are being built in India by French firm DCNS, however, the publication has blacked out crucial details given that it could prove detrimental to India's defence.

India's national security stands gravely compromised following leaks of the entire design plans and specifications of the Scorpene submarine, containing 22,400 pages of the 'project 75' carrying the emblem of the Indian navy.

The first leak revealed the following:

. 4,301 pages of combat management system and 493 pages of torpedo systems

. The secret stealth capabilities of the six Scorpene submarines.

. 4, 457 pages of submarines underwater sensors and 4, 209 pages of submarines above water sensors.

. 6, 841 pages of the Scorpene submarines communications systems.

. The diving depth range details.

. Magnetic, electromagnetic and infrared data of the six submarines.

. Frequencies at which the submarines gather intelligence.

. Details of speed and conditions needed to use the periscope for the submarine.

. The noise specifications of the submarine's propellers.

. Radiated noise levels that occur when submarines surface, level of noise at various speed, places where submarine crew can speak to avoid detection by enemy have also been leaked.

On Wednesday, Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar asked Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba to analyse the extent of the leak and find out whether it is related to India or not.

Parrikar said the government would come out with more information over the next couple of days.

On Tuesday, a report in Australian media revealed that sensitive information related to India's Scorpene submarines had been leaked, with French shipbuilder DCNS, which designed the submarine, facing a leak of documents spreading over 22,000 pages.

According to The Australian, the leak details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.

The Indian Navy informed today that documents posted on the website by The Australian, don't pose any security compromise as vital parameters have been blacked out.

"Matter has been taken up with the DG of Armaments of the French Government. We have requested their government to investigate with urgency and share findings with India. An internal audit of procedures to rule out any security compromise is also being undertaken," the Navy said. (ANI)



WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

i think Indians are lying ......................this is very sensitive information .

how many submarines are built ?

can we change the specifications of rest of the submarines ??
How correct they are is also a question which needs to be investigated.

Some times I feel like the French DGSE and RAW deliberately leaked it to some one 5 years back as DISINFORMATION.
They wanted to know whom this information goes what will be the reaction of the information user and misguide it. And in return they got some high grade intel.

If it is like this, then the end user came to know about this and now trying to malign the image of french defence industry.

Even the Malaysians use scorpene, they would also know all these details on the docs with only few minor changes. If Malaysians know then Chinese know it too. What's the fuzz?
 
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rishivashista13

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Russia sold SU27 to China and SU30 to India. USA sold Apache to India and Cobra to pakistan. So they are very opportunistic people.
aren't they ?
Its just like shopkeeper and costumer .
For them , whole world is costumers .
They only want money , and who will able to pay for it he will get the weapon .

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk
 

rishivashista13

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We don't know, lets not speculate and then get excited over something we have no clue about.
Yes , but media is making it really hot and bouncing it very high ........

And it also looks something very serious .

Sent from my Micromax Q380 using Tapatalk
 

Darth Malgus

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Yes , but media is making it really hot and bouncing it very high ........

And it also looks something very serious .
We know how Indian Media works. Truth be told, nobody knows what and how it looks like. Its all speculation , guess work and a little bit of paranoia added with emotion :scared2: Lets just admit that we don't know. For now neither is the Navy concerned nor is the DM concerned and if they are concerned they might not tell you. But considering that the Trials itself has not been completed, i tend to believe the DM may be right here.


From media, there seems to be a sustained campaign to scrap the scorpenes and go for Russian made subs. This looks more like an economic warfare and swaying public opinion than anything seriously to do with submarines...
 
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swap

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Scorpene subs now good only for junking: Thank you DCNS!
Posted on August 24, 2016by Bharat Karnad
The Indian Navy’s fleet of the French Scorpene submarine — the first of which, Kalvari, has entered service, is now completely compromized. The most secret data about the performance attributes and technologies incorporated in the Scorpene are now common knowledge, and the details in some 22,000 pages of this project has been “leaked” from the French company DCNS’ facility in France. The gist of these documents is published in the Aussie paper, ‘The Australian’ and is accessible athttp://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...l/news-story/3fe0d25b7733873c44aaa0a4d42db39e.

The restricted data, per the Australian news story, reveals information in the following broad categories the newspaper has, fortunately, not retailed:

• The stealth capabilities of the six new Indian Scorpene submarines

• The frequencies at which the subs gather intelligence

• The levels of noise the subs make at various speeds

• Diving depths, range and endurance

• Magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data

• Specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system

• Speed and conditions needed for using the periscope

• Propeller’s noise specifications

• Radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces

Assuming the DCNS data was stolen from DCNS computers by cyber thieves or by a staffer with eye on the main chance, with the express purpose of derailing DCNS’ contract with Canberra to build six Sorpenes for the Australian Navy, the Indian Navy is a collateral hit — its prospective sea-denial capability a lot of showpiece rubble, its submarines good for nothing when, not if, the China and Pakistan buy the entire stock of documents as they will. Not sure, at this late date, that DCNS can do anything structurally to change the stealth or cavitation parameters, for instance, and if they can, at whose cost? The disclosures about the diving depths, weapons, and sensor specifications are really damaging. Worse, what can or will the Indian Navy now do? Look at the categories and the comprehensive info about the Scorpene, what option’s left other than to junk the nearly $22 billion worth of French submarines?

France has always been distrusted by the US as being unable to safeguard its military secrets. One reason why Washington was relieved when General de Gaulle withdrew France from NATO in June 1966.

This blog has been full of posts retailing my suspicions on various counts about French military hardware in the context of the impending Rafale acquisition decision, and particularly with regard to DCNS’ bid for the Project 75i submarine. Will the Modi regime now go ahead with the Rafale aircraft buy considering its secrets, assuming there are any, may be spirited away from the Dassault vaults and made public as the Scorpene info was from DCNS? And, more worrying still, will Parrikar in order to please Modi, instead of blackballing DCNS for its lax attitude to secret data, shortlist it for the Project 75i?

Have always argued that the only secrets about military hardware India can be sure of is about weapons systems it has fully made itself — from design to delivery. Reason why Tejas, Arihant, Agni missiles are such force multipliers — but little else in the Indian military inventory is as the rest of the stuff is all procured from foreign countries, who will happily reveal their secrets if it serves their national interest. In this respect, recall that during the 1982 Falklands War, France shared with Britain the operating frequencies of the Exocet anti-ship missile it had sold to Argentina. Only Russia has been above board in this respect.

This DCNS leak is a god-sent opportunity for the Indian govt, MOD, and military services to correct their imported armaments-oriented attitude, and to begin investing fully in only indigenous weaponry. If even after this, the Modi-Parrikar duo persists with its tilt favouring Western foreign suppliers, then what’s there to do except await the inevitable — an India fast declining in status and standing.

https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/08/24/scorpene-subs-now-good-only-for-junking-thank-you-dcns/
 

hit&run

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Look at this mother fucker Vishnu Som of NDTV celebrating and saying cheers to The Australian journalist Cameron Stewart for disclosing state secret.

 

sayareakd

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This Stewart guy looks like paid agent for competition. He want to make sure all the sensitive info becomes public.

We are just victims of this game.

Btw China too has kilo class, so all our sub, except for Atv and Chakra info not with them.
 

Darth Malgus

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http://www.orfonline.org/expert-speaks/scorpeneleak-fighting-that-sinking-feeling/

The Scorpene data leak is a body-blow for the Indian navy. Already suffering from a critical shortage of submarines to protect its littoral-seas, the navy must now deal with allegations that its principal submarine project, a venture being pursued in partnership with the French company DCNS, has been badly compromised. In a damning disclosure, The Australianreported that it had seen crucial files that revealed critical data about India’s ‘Scorpene’ programme, with equipment and operational specifications outlined in such minute detail that India’s future submarine operations could be severely jeopardised.

Stung by the revelations, the navy has ordered an inquiry, but is struggling to come to terms with the leak’s operational implications. In order to get to the bottom of this embarrassing expose, it is important to answer three sets of crucial questions:

What was the source of the leak? Was this a case of cyber theft?
As news broke of the revelations, Indian officials rushed into damage control mode. The navy immediately released a statement saying the leak appeared to have originated from outside India. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar contended that the leak looked like a case of hacking. His suggestion that this wasn’t a physical breach of security, but the handy-work of cyber criminals seemed to resonate with Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who also hinted that the system had been infiltrated by hackers. It all seemed conveniently aimed at shifting the onus of responsibility onto unknown cyber spies with the mysterious ability to pierce well guarded computer networks.

However, the present evidences suggest that this may not have been a case of hacking at all. First, the documents released are nearly all scanned copies of a printed manuscript which appears to be an operational manual. It is reasonable to assume that if hackers were involved, original PDF documents would have been made public. Naval sources point out that when submarine specifications are prepared, every equipment and sensors is evaluated by specialists who prepare separate files with necessary specifications. It is only later that the individual documents are collated and printed as a consolidated manual. If hackers had accessed company computers, experts aver, they are likely to have revealed individual PDF documents.


Instead, printed manuals have been scanned and copied on a data disc by an insider who then seems to have either smuggled it out physically or illegally transmitted its contents to an outside agency with the intention of making a specific revelation.

The Indian navy may be right in suggesting that the leak did not originate in India, because details of DCNS’ submarine projects with Chile and Malaysia have also been released. If an Indian source had stolen the data, he/she would not have had access to files pertaining to these countries. The report in The Australian states that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected to have been removed from France in that same year by a former French navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor. Given these facts, the possibility of an opportunistic leak cannot be discounted. It is possible that the information was available on a data disc since 2011, and was obtained from its source for a price to further a particular strategic objective.

What are the implications of the leak?

There is no denying that the revealed information is of an extremely sensitive nature. The leaked data is said to include details of the Scorpene’s stealth capabilities, frequencies for intelligence gathering, the noise levels of the submarines at various speeds, the diving depths, range and endurance, magnetic radiations, specifications of the torpedo system, propeller noise specifications and radiated noise levels etc. Not only would this information be useful for an adversary in developing tactics to combat the Scorpene, it also appears to nullify stealth and secrecy — the holy grail of submarine operations.

Despite their seemingly grave nature, the revelations, however, do not compromise the Scorpene in a way that negates its prospects for future exploitation. Navies usually have a data bank of the vital characteristics of rival submarine forces. This is based on the understanding of equipment and sensors which those platforms are known to possess and their general operating characteristics. This information, however, does not readily translate into a submarine’s unique underwater signature. The signature of a submarine is a combination of all its acoustic and magnetic emissions, which can be studied and documented only during sea-trails. While the revelation of the Scorpene’s operating characteristics is damaging for combat operations, it does not prevent the submarines from being tactically exploited.

This is not to say the Indian navy will not be adversely affected by the leak. The revelations are significant and could impact India’s undersea operations direly. But they are unlikely to put the Scorpene class out of service.

Who does this disclosure really target?

This is the most important part of the investigations. It appears that the revelations are part of corporate espionage war between DCNS and its rival corporations. The company’s spokesperson alluded to it in a media briefing on Thursday when she stated that “competition was getting tougher and tougher, and all means were being used.. all tools in economic warfare.”

Australia’s recent award of its submarine contract to DCNS has created severe heart-burn in Japan and Germany, where competing firms had been vying for Canberra’s $50 billion contract of the replacement for the Collins class submarine. It isn’t surprising that the nature of the leak seems intended at discrediting the French company.

A particularly revealing clue is a screenshot of icons of PDF documents of important submarine sensors that is part of the released documents. It suggests that the insider was acting on instructions that would show him/her as having accessed not just scanned copies of the manuals, but also original PDF versions of individual files. The fact, however, that the material put out does not contain any PDF files implies that the source may have had no cyber access to the original material, except being able to view it on a computer screen. This debunks the hacking theory, showing that despite their inability to infiltrate company servers, the conspirators planned on creating an illusion that inadequate systems-security at DCNS compromised sensitive operational data.

Even the security classification annotated in red with the stamp “Restricted Scorpene India” on the revealed documents appears intended at indicting DCNS. Clearly, the culprits were keen to show the French company in poor light, implicating it for failing to protect sensitive data.

Only investigation will reveal if there was a real corporate war at play. What seems clear is that India has been a collateral victim in a deeper economic and strategic conspiracy. The challenge for the Indian navy will be dispel the impression that its premier submarine project has been rendered worthless.

-----------------------------------------------------


Why are people here believing every tom dick and harry other than the the Navy and the DM ? This is a desperate move to frame DCNS and sabotage the deal and folks here are falling hook , line and sinker into the Media induced Paranoia.
 
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Darth Malgus

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This Stewart guy looks like paid agent for competition. He want to make sure all the sensitive info becomes public.
.
Or create the impression that sensitive info has been leaked, Someone is desperate to get this deal cancelled...
 

Rahul Singh

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What i see coming out of this blow is a serious searching for alternatives, one of which will be fast tracking indigenous option.
 

Scarface

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So what will be the likely effects of the leak on the deal

Will it get binned entirely (which I would prefer) because I don't want India to come across as a country who goes easy on corporates when it comes to defense acquisitions more than the security implications.

Will the order be downsized ? Switched for something else like the Barricuda.

Or maybe we explore other options,the Swedes have some great subs from what I hear.

Frogs were never a reliable weapons supplier is what I've believed for a long time and the whole exocet debacle and these leaks have only cemented my belief
 

PARIKRAMA

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http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...bb358581cf27819acfb+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=in

and pls can anyone explain to me my simple query
  • Now a leak in 2011, data of prior periods and a manual containing all technical specs for which contract for indian production local parts started inking in June 7th 2011 with Flash Forge, the first company in India to sign the contract and begin its work for 1st scorpene now in sea trials.
  • The construction of Kalavari began in 2009 and it was waiting for multiple sub systems to arrive for the submarine to be under construction in 2011 also and 2012 also when parts started arriving.
  • In simple words other than the basic hull being constructed all the important equipment were more or less started going inside the sub in 2012 (FF work is properly towards fitting inside the submarine and its a JV company for TOT part)
So can anyone understand how operational manuals are there for a submarine where equipment inside is infact not made or even contracted? Do you make operational manual for a system like a submarine where order of systems are not even given or contracted? and that also for the very 1st submarine?

i asked here
http://defence . pk/threads/sensitive-data-of-indian-navy%E2%80%99s-scorpene-class-submarines-leaked.445677/page-36#post-8618344
 

AVERAGE INDIAN

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There are four kinds of people, three of which are to be avoided and the fourth cultivated: those who don’t know that they don’t know; those who know that they don’t know; those who don’t know that they know; and those who know that they know.

If the journalists keep on churning out half knowledge articles nothing can be done

off to upper peninsula will post pics once all my trips are done
 

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