IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[porky_kicker]

i think india will pay the french to modify the SUBTICS CMS to enable it to control any torpedo which india decides to buy for the scorpenes.

did some searching and found this on wiki (black shark torpedo)
"In 2008 France signed a development contract for 93 heavy torpedoes for its nuclear submarines, to be delivered from 2015. The original plan called for a derivative of the Black Shark to be built by a joint venture between DCNS, Thales and WASS,but they fell out and DCNS will now be developing the F21 Artemis with Thales and Atlas Elektronik."

so common sense dictates that india might opt for F21 since it is a french derivative of black shark torpedo and therefore will require minimum modifications to the SUBTICS CMS mainly software changes to enable it to be fired from Indian scorpenes.
it has a range of 50km and speed of 50 knots



The combination of a new-generation acoustic head, multi-sensor data fusion and advanced signal processing make the F21 a smarter torpedo. This intelligence plus unrivalled performances (maximum speed, endurance, acoustic discretion, etc.) contribute to guarantee tactical superiority.

In many ways, the F21 is more an unmanned underwater vehicle (UUV) than a conventional torpedo. It is also the most advanced on the world market and will remain so for many years to come.

The design meets the French Navy’s requirements for pneumatic ram or swim-out deployment, at extended speed from fastest to quietest. The F21 is suitable for use with all types of submarines, from SSBNs and SSNs to conventional-propulsion types.

The F21 features a new-generation acoustic head that significantly improves torpedo performance in both shallow and deep waters. The capability to adapt the detection angle of the planar array, by managing the transmitting cone in elevation and azimuth, permits to adjust the acoustic detection to seafloor relief.

Multiple on-board sensors (echo sounders, APD, planar array, etc.), data fusion and state-of-the-art signal processing give the F21 detection capabilities comparable with those of a surveillance or attack sonar on a full-size submarine. Multi-sensor data fusion also results in improved capabilities in noisy environments and shallow water, particularly during the attack phase.


The Migal fire control system serves as the interface between the torpedo and the submarine’s combat management system. Its prime function is to control the torpedo firing sequence during training exercises and in combat. To this end, the Migal cabinet presets, checks and launches the available torpedoes, one at a time or in salvoes, then controls the wire-guidance mode.

Migal cabinets is compatible with many torpedoes and can be adapted to a large variety of submarines and CMS. Navies can thus deploy several types of torpedoes on each submarine which in turn helps them to optimise munitions management. Migal cabinets have been in volume production for ten years and are in service with a number of navies.

as they say every cloud has a silver lining

 

[syncro]

The F21 is a good choice... it combines the best of Italian technology (WASS for motor and batteries) and German (Atlas Elektronik for the seeker) and French (Thales ECM).
WASS has sold out completely to the French the engine technology and battery when it is moved to the new polymer batteries, so there is no involvement of Leonardo - Finmeccanica in the F21.

If the French keep the cost down by not taking into account the 2.5 billion euro of development is the probable that the final price is only about 50 milions bigger of the old Black Shark torpedos plus few milions for the integration.

 

[Gessler]

In my opinion, a parallel production line for components etc. should be set up within MDL - which would allow for the delivery of the follow-on orders at a much quicker rate.

This is what I meant when I said a parallel line within MDL that can produce/assemble components, allowing for quicker delivery of the final products.....instead of setting up a different, private-sector shipyard for additional Scorpenes.

 

[bengalraider]

There is one more option being discussed apart from the F21, that's the German SEAHAKE MOD 4.

 

[tharun]

Do our scorpene submarines have AIP propulsion?
If not tell me the range and endurance without AIP?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Do our scorpene submarines have AIP propulsion?
If not tell me the range and endurance without AIP?

No Buddy, They have AIP.
Please enter a message with at least 30 characters.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

We have alternative for Finmeccanica's torpedos: Manohar Parrikar

 

[charlie]

Integrating that with Scorpenes can be problem.

I assume India already paid for the integration, Indian Scorpenes has 6 x 533 mm.

Almost all nato platforms provides open architecture, so integration should not be hard at all.

ah here found subtics open architecture.
http://en.dcnsgroup.com/news/dcns-to-showcase-wide-range-expertise-at-defexpo-india-2014/

 

[bengalraider]

Do our scorpene submarines have AIP propulsion?
If not tell me the range and endurance without AIP?

We are getting 6 Scorpenes with an option for three more in a 2nd tranche.
Out of these the First 4 DO NOT have AIP.
The rest will.
50 Days normal endurance without AIP.
50+21 days endurance with MESMA AIP.

 

[kstriya]

What about the DRDO developed torpedo it was being tested, when will it be operations ready? Can we have them on the scorpenes?

 

[tharun]

We are getting 6 Scorpenes with an option for three more in a 2nd tranche.
Out of these the First 4 DO NOT have AIP.
The rest will.
50 Days normal endurance without AIP.
50+21 days endurance with MESMA AIP.

What is normal endurance..Is it underwater or snorkled?
How much of energy is made by MESMA AIP in kw

 

[MKM]

What about the DRDO developed torpedo it was being tested, when will it be operations ready? Can we have them on the scorpenes?

Last year Varunastra ship launched version was tested, Takshak is submarine launched version.

 

[tharun]

Do scorpenes double hull or single hull?
Can we fire Klub class missiles from scorpenes?

 

[Prashant12]

India likely to go for govt-to-govt German deal for torpedos

NEW DELHI: India is likely to go in for a government-to-government deal withGermanyfor heavyweight torpedos after having scrapped plans to purchase them from a subsidiary of chopper scam-tainted Italian defence conglomerate Finmeccanica.

Defence sources said the government had written to various countries looking for options.

The two torpedos that were of interest were F21 fromFranceand SeaHake from Germany's Atlas Elektronik.

Sources said the French wrote back saying they are willing to provide F21 but only for French submarines or those built with French help.

This meant that in case the French don't make the cut in future submarine contracts with India, the government will have to look for options.

As per the plans, the torpedos that were to be fitted on the six under-construction Scorpene submarines being built in collaboration with France's DCNS, would have eventually made it into the next project called P75 I and others.

Torpedoes are self-propelled weapons with explosives packed in their nose and are submarine's primary weapon.

All alternatives are being worked out since we will not be going in for the Italian torpedos, defence sources said, adding, Atlas Elektronik is the front-runner.

The ministry had carried out a detailed study looking into various options before deciding to scrap the plans to procure Black Shark torpedoes, made by Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei (WASS), a subsidiary of Finmeccanica.

The company had emerged the lowest bidder during the UPA era to arm the Scorpene submarines the first of which will be handed over to the Navy by September this year.

However, the proposal to acquire it had been stuck for long time. Various controversies surrounded the deal which former Defence Minister A K Antony had not signed on.

The deal eventually got embroiled in the VVIP chopper scandal, sources said.

The Navy had been pushing for it citing "operational necessity".

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...an-deal-for-torpedos/articleshow/52958741.cms

 

[tharun]

 

[tharun]

Second set of images.................

 

[Prashant12]

We are making our own AIP system with DRDO: Admiral Sunil Lanba

Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba on Monday said India is indigenously building AIP (air independent propulsion) -enabled submarines.

"We are making our own AIP indigenous system with DRDO. At present, project definition is going on. Prototypes based plant is being constructed and once it is ready, it will be fitted in the Kalvari-class submarines," Admiral Lanba said during his first media interaction after taking over as Navy Chief.

To a query if Pakistan's acquisition of submarines fitted with AIP system from China was a threat to India, he said, "The submarines have capabilities. But we have system in place and operation in place which we can look after that."

The Naval chief said the force was committed to building indigenous ship in-line with the 'Make in India' initiative and at present, 46 ships and submarines were being built in the country.

"The Navy has been focused on indigenisation right from the beginning. We have been building ships in India for over decades and 200 naval ships have been built in Indiatill date. At the moment, 46 ships and submarines are under construction and are all being built in Indian shipyards," he said.

"We work closely with DRDO and other private sector industries to ensure our weapons and sensors are titled with India. We are focused and committed to make in India," Lanba said. Talking about India's stand after China rejected an international tribunal ruling on the disputed waters of the South China Sea, he said rule of law should be followed.

"As far as South China Sea goes...And arbitration which has been done...And decision which has been taken, India's stand has always been that disputes should be resolved on the basis of laws, there should be freedom of navigation and rule of law should be followed," he said.

The Hague tribunal backed the Philippinesi n a case on the disputed waters of the South China Sea, ruling that rocky outcrops claimed by China - some of which are exposed only at low tide - cannot be used as the basis of territorial claims.
Admiral Lanba also said that 'INS Viraat' is likely to be de-inducted during the later part of the year.

"Viraat, which commissioned in May, 1987 after doing good service for 27 years, is scheduled to be de-inducted in later part of the year," he said.

He also said they were working towards induction of 'INS Vikrant' by 2018.

"We are working in close coordination with Kochi shipyard to ensure the INS Vikrant will be commissioned in December 2018," the Naval chief said.

He also cleared doubts surrounding the MiG-29 aircraft and said "serviceability of the plane has improved".

"Indian Navy was the first country to induct MiG-29 aircraft. There were few issues when the aircraft were inducted initially and they have been resolved.The serviceability of the aircraft has improved over the years and majority of the problems are behind us," Lanba said.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...-drdo-admiral-sunil-lanba-116080100534_1.html

 

[ezsasa]

Looks like our scorpene designs have been leaked.....
Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal


The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.

The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by The Australian, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.

A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.

The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.

In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.

Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.

It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.

The data seen by The Australian includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.

The Australian has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.

Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.

The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.

The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.

If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.

DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.

“In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”

However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.

The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.

It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.

The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.

DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...l/news-story/3fe0d25b7733873c44aaa0a4d42db39e

 

[charlie]

Looks like our scorpene designs have been leaked.....
Our French submarine builder in massive leak scandal


The French company that won the bid to design Australia’s new $50 billion submarine fleet has suffered a massive leak of secret documents, raising fears about the future security of top-secret data on the navy’s future fleet.

The stunning leak, which runs to 22,400 pages and has been seen by The Australian, details the entire secret combat capability of the six Scorpene-class submarines that French shipbuilder DCNS has designed for the Indian Navy.

A variant of the same French-designed Scorpene is also used by the navies of Malaysia, Chile and, from 2018, Brazil, so news of the Edward Snowden-sized leak — revealed today — will trigger alarm at the highest level in these countries. Marked “Restricted Scorpene India”, the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.

The leak will spark grave concern in Australia and especially in the US where senior navy officials have privately expressed fears about the security of top-secret data entrusted to France.

In April DCNS, which is two-thirds owned by the French government, won the hotly contested bid over Germany and Japan to design 12 new submarines for Australia. Its proposed submarine for Australia — the yet-to-be-built Shortfin Barracuda — was chosen ahead of its rivals because it was considered to be the quietest in the water, making it perfectly suited to intelligence-gathering operations against China and others in the region.

Any stealth advantage for the navy’s new submarines would be gravely compromised if data on its planned combat and performance capabilities was leaked in the same manner as the data from the Scorpene. The leaked DCNS data details the secret stealth capabilities of the six new Indian submarines, including what frequencies they gather intelligence at, what levels of noise they make at various speeds and their diving depths, range and endurance — all sensitive information that is highly classified. The data tells the submarine crew where on the boat they can speak safely to avoid detection by the enemy. It also discloses magnetic, electromagnetic and infra-red data as well as the specifications of the submarine’s torpedo launch system and the combat system.

It details the speed and conditions needed for using the periscope, the noise specifications of the propeller and the radiated noise levels that occur when the submarine surfaces.

The data seen by The Australian includes 4457 pages on the submarine’s underwater sensors, 4209 pages on its above-water sensors, 4301 pages on its combat management system, 493 pages on its torpedo launch system and specifications, 6841 pages on the sub’s communications system and 2138 on its navigation systems.

The Australian has chosen to redact sensitive information from the documents.

Sea trials for the first of India’s six Scorpene submarines began in May. The project is running four years behind schedule.

The Indian Navy has boasted that its Scorpene submarines have superior stealth features, which give them a major advantage against other submarines.

The US will be alarmed by the leak of the DCNS data because Australia hopes to install an American combat system — with the latest US stealth technology — in the French Shortfin Barracuda.

If Washington does not feel confident that its “crown jewels’’ of stealth technology can be protected, it may decline to give Australia its state-of-the-art combat system.

DCNS yesterday sought to reassure Australians that the leak of the data on the Indian Scorpene submarine would not happen with its proposed submarine for Australia. The company also implied — but did not say directly — that the leak might have occurred at India’s end, rather than from France. “Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian arrangements,” the company said. “Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data.

“In the case of Australia, and unlike India, DCNS is both the provider and in-country controller of technical data for the full chain of transmission and usage over the life of the submarines.”

However, The Australian has been told that the data on the Scorpene was written in France for India in 2011 and is suspected of being removed from France in that same year by a former French Navy officer who was at that time a DCNS subcontractor.

The data is then believed to have been taken to a company in Southeast Asia, possibly to assist in a commercial venture for a regional navy.

It was subsequently passed by a third party to a second company in the region before being sent on a data disk by regular mail to a company in Australia. It is unclear how widely the data has been shared in Asia or whether it has been obtained by foreign intelligence agencies.

The data seen by The Australian also includes separate confidential DCNS files on plans to sell French frigates to Chile and the French sale of the Mistral-class amphibious assault ship carrier to Russia. These DCNS projects have no link to India, which adds weight to the probability that the data files were removed from DCNS in France.

DCNS Australia this month signed a deed of agreement with the Defence Department, paving the way for talks over the contract which will guide the design phase of the new submarines. The government plans to build 12 submarines in Adelaide to replace the six-boat Collins-class fleet from the early 2030s. The Shortfin Barracuda will be a slightly shorter, conventionally powered version of France’s new fleet of Barracuda-class nuclear submarines.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...l/news-story/3fe0d25b7733873c44aaa0a4d42db39e

well If it was leaked from the french side, then it's really easy to figure out as it would have a trail, but if it was leaked from the indian side then well we will never figure out what happen.

 

[scatterStorm]

well If it was leaked from the french side, then it's really easy to figure out as it would have a trail, but if it was leaked from the indian side then well we will never figure out what happen.

Yup, It's official, The confidential document has been leaked by a French DCNS Personnel, although Mr. Parrikar said it's a Hack!

Source - http://www.livefistdefence.com/
https://t.co/A4acvcOOHp