IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

raja696

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There is also no guarantee that whosoever wins P-75I won't do same or similar. So take whatever technology that is still needed to be imported, except do rest of the job yourself. No time to wait for an indigenous design till P-75I arrives. Make P-75I an indigenous project and take whatever help that is needed like we did in case of Arihant.
A26 subs from Sweden can be another good option


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Narasimh

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well If it was leaked from the french side, then it's really easy to figure out as it would have a trail, but if it was leaked from the indian side then well we will never figure out what happen.
Wow! French could not guard top secret records and keep check of their employees but oh sure they can track who did it! they are just so damn efficient at pinpointing the cause of disaster, waayyy more than preventing a disaster.. Heck! they even keep bar codes for every disaster, just scan the "scorpene scam" bar code and you will find its scam start date, end date, trace its handlers etc :clap2:
 

charlie

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Wow! French could not guard top secret records and keep check of their employees but oh sure they can track who did it! they are just so damn efficient at pinpointing the cause of disaster, waayyy more than preventing a disaster.. Heck! they even keep bar codes for every disaster, just scan the "scorpene scam" bar code and you will find its scam start date, end date, trace its handlers etc :clap2:
it's easy to leak data from client side rather then defence contractor side, I have seen old data that was suppose to be restricted but someone from client side put it online.

It's easy to track because all our laptops, emails and network we use are monitored in a different way then what you see in civilian side. Things changed a lot in US last few years don't know about the French
 

tharun

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Can any one share me the link of documents..that can be downloaded....
 

Rahul Singh

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It will reduce the vulnerability but more important is prevention of data. As I described in my earlier post, when the data on stealth tech can be stolen by hackers in China then they can do it in India too.

The planners need to have a system with no scope of sabotage and leak.
Yeah! it needs to be done in all cases. But more hands it passes through the greater is the vulnerability. That's is why we need to go local.
 

Bahamut

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it's easy to leak data from client side rather then defence contractor side, I have seen old data that was suppose to be restricted but someone from client side put it online.

It's easy to track because all our laptops, emails and network we use are monitored in a different way then what you see in civilian side. Things changed a lot in US last few years don't know about the French
A ex DCNS sub contractors is the source, the fear is that he sold the secrets but we do not know who.
 

bengalraider

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good time to tell the L&T to start making conventional sub with DRDO AIP, that way all our secrets will be with us.

Let L&T expand massively, into nuclear and conventional sub wing and start making them in assembly line.
Been saying this for years now, we are spending 12$bil on P75I . We should cancel it just buy 10 Kilos off the shelf to maintain Numbers till 2025 ( should cost less than 5$bil) use the rest 7$bil to develop at least two types of desi SSKs.
1) a light vessel (1-2000T) 30-45 day endurance like the Gotland for the Arabian Sea & Bay of Bengal fleets.
2) a bigger sub like the Soryu or Israeli Dolphins (3-4000T) with an endurance of 60-90 days for IOR patrols.
 

Rahul Singh

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http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/08/indian-navy-probes-leaked-data-of.html
Indian Navy probes leaked data of Scorpene subs
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/08/indian-navy-probes-leaked-data-of.html


A page from the leaked document, with sensitive data redacted by The Australian

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 24th Aug 16


At midnight on Tuesday, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar was woken up by a phone call to tell him that an Australian newspaper had just reported the leakage of key operational details of India’s newest submarines, the Scorpene.

A short while earlier, The Australian, a reputed Melbourne based daily, had broken the news that 22,400 pages of detailed documents relating to India’s Scorpene submarines that been leaked, apparently from the French shipbuilder, DCNS, which is the vendor for India’s six Scorpenes.

The report in The Australian says: “the DCNS documents detail the most sensitive combat capabilities of India’s new $US3 bn ($3.9bn) submarine fleet and would provide an intelligence bonanza if obtained by India’s strategic rivals, such as Pakistan or China.”

Each page of the leaked documents, which are available on The Australian’s website, is annotated in red with the stamp: “Restricted Scorpene India”.

Parrikar says, upon learning of the leak at midnight, he ordered the navy chief personally to inquire into what this meant for the security of the Scorpene fleet.

Asked whether a formal inquiry was under way, Parrikar replied: “Let him (the navy chief) first find out all the details. That is a sort of inquiry ---directly asking a navy chief to find out… and identify what is (the problem).”

“The available information is being examined at Integrated Headquarters, Ministry of Defence (Navy) and an analysis is being carried out by the concerned specialists”, said a defence ministry release on Wednesday morning.

Asked by Business Standard whether DCNS was in breach of confidentiality clauses with the Indian Navy, Parrikar stated: “What I understand is that there is a hacking (from DCNS). We will find out all those things… maybe in a couple of days we will be able to tell you”.

“It appears that the source of the leak is from overseas and not in India”, says the defence ministry release.

Warship industry sources say the timing of the leak is significant, with DCNS having won a $50 billion tender in April to design a new submarine fleet for Australia --- beating out German and Japanese rivals. There is speculation that rivals might be scuttling DCNS’s bid by painting it as unreliable and insecure.

Even so, the Indian Navy is seriously concerned about the leak. The Australian says the leaked data includes details of the Indian Scorpenes’ stealth capabilities, frequencies for intelligence gathering, the noise levels of the submarines at various speeds, the diving depths, range and endurance, magnetic, electro-magnetic and infra-red data, specifications of the torpedo system, propeller noise specifications and radiated noise levels when the submarine surfaces. This includes sensitive capabilities that an enemy would find useful in formulating tactics to combat the Scorpene.

The first of India’s six Scorpene submarines, a diesel-electric vessel named INS Kalvari, is currently undergoing sea trials off Mumbai. Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL), which is building six vessels with technology transferred from DCNS, expects the Kalvari will be commissioning into the navy by the year-end. Over the next three years, the remaining five Scorpenes will be commissioned and enter active service.

Parrikar says he hopes key Scorpene information might have been firewalled from the DCNS leaks by being confined to MDL, which is building the vessels in Mumbai.

Vice Admiral (Retired) Arun Kumar Singh, an Indian Navy submarine veteran, explains that much of the information in the 22,400 leaked pages would be commercial information relating to the Scorpene’s operating characteristics, that DCNS would legitimately share with any navy that expressed interest in buying the Scorpene.

“An operational disaster, however, would be the leakage of information relating to the sound that the Scorpene radiates into the water; or revealing the maximum depth to which the vessel can dive and fire weapons from”, says Singh.

A submarine’s “audio signature” is like a fingerprint. It is unique, and allows sensors like those in maritime reconnaissance aircraft to identify individual submarines, from a bank of “signatures” that navies maintain.

INS Kalvari has not yet done its “noise ranging trials”, which would pinpoint its audio fingerprint. Until these trials are completed, there is little possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.

Scorpene submarines are operated by Malaysia and Chile, while Brazil will also operate them from 2018. The Indian Scorpene is slightly longer, which would make its audio and magnetic signatures marginally different.

Interesting, the leak would also be carefully scrutinized by Pakistan, which has bought three submarines from DCNS --- the Agosta 90B class. There are several commonalities between the Scorpene and the Agosta 90B, although the latter incorporates the more sophisticated “air independent propulsion”.
 

Compersion

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Cough cough * * did the someone say Rafeal and Dassault and France ... They are not coming out looking good on this ... Is someone not wanting France to also get closer and closer to India. France got rogered royally ... From Rafael to Scorepene ... Are they unreliable ... Can only do simple buy and sell.

Only purchase agreements and no TOT ?? Like middle east !!

We are also having a discussion on sharing agreements with USA. Oh what a mixture ...

Normally it is fear of copying ... I like now India and the ground dynamics is implying we can build it on our own we are looking at dynamics beyond simple build but trust and relationships. This will only thrust more indigenous building especially with national security angle (a lot of our stuff is out there and we are thinking of exporting more and more). We must announce some big independent indigenous projects to circumvent the attempt spotlight on India security apparatus. Its not Indian but overseas reliability in question (hence Australian concern on its projects)

Also we must not confuse and we can build more and more Arihant (no one must talk how we can build such on our own but scorpenes ...) To even Air Craft carriers and make it known and check and protect there's lots of eyes on our assets now. We must also build capacity to do what others do to us. I am sure its there already and getting better.
 
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Compersion

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Can France do the big ticket items successfully ?

Mistral (reliability)
Scorpene (securely)
Rafeal (sensitivity and sensibility)

Engines (confidently)
Missiles + more (strategically)
Any more ...

Why is France being made to look like a small and unreliable supplier of small quantity. Only with partners that can burn money . such a clear downgrade. Second division ... Not with bigger ambitions.

I'm sure our negotiations in Rafeal will mention this.

France ought to be livid ... Concentrated destruction ... Does France even care ? Do they even want to ? Have they given up and surrendered ... Strong words that brings up past history and similar dynamics. Sorry but needs to be said from India perspectives ... Only.

USA wanting take over France role in India ... But like this ? What a spicy mixture and way to do it ? France ...

Only good things that come out from this is more indigenous building!!
 
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Screambowl

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I've read somewhere that Indian war plans were leaked to Pakis as well. Some also say that Kulbhushan is a Double agent.
A26 subs from Sweden can be another good option


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I don't think there is need to go for another option. US data on stealth got leaked to Chinese and Russian still Chinese are struggling to build exact propulsion system as on B2 even after a decade.
 

tharun

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Been saying this for years now, we are spending 12$bil on P75I . We should cancel it just buy 10 Kilos off the shelf to maintain Numbers till 2025 ( should cost less than 5$bil) use the rest 7$bil to develop at least two types of desi SSKs.
1) a light vessel (1-2000T) 30-45 day endurance like the Gotland for the Arabian Sea & Bay of Bengal fleets.
2) a bigger sub like the Soryu or Israeli Dolphins (3-4000T) with an endurance of 60-90 days for IOR patrols.
Or otherwise south korea is building a 3000 tonnage submarine called KSS-III with VLS to carry ballistic or cruise missile....We can join the program
OR
Buy off the shelf..15 type-214 submarine from german or korean
 

anoop_mig25

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first corruption , then dealy and now leak .between how many scropene submarine has been made.order was for 6 .if not many has been made then we should go for new one
 

Indx TechStyle

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After the leak of Scorpene Related Documents from DCNS, France,
Some paki on baki forum:biggrin2:
IMG_20160825_183608.JPG
Lazy pakis do not have energy for even enough typing.
Writing National Interest as NI.
:facepalm:
@aditya10r @OneGrimPilgrim
 

bengalraider

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Or otherwise south korea is building a 3000 tonnage submarine called KSS-III with VLS to carry ballistic or cruise missile....We can join the program
OR
Buy off the shelf..15 type-214 submarine from german or korean
Type 214 will be agreat choice as well should come in at about 500$mil.piece!
 

Bahamut

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We should ask for short finned barracude sub or a refund.Add more kilo class and ask Type 214 or Amur or S1000.
 

Tripurantak

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Type 214 will be agreat choice as well should come in at about 500$mil.piece!
Germans had also leaked our Shishumar class Type 209 details to south africa, so no guarentee that it won't happen through buying from others be it sweden, germany, korea.......

We need to go indigenous .... Just collaborate with germans for propellers, propulsion, batteries and Seahawke torpedos, but just shorten our arihant from 6000 tons to 4000 tons and fit with german stuff that we can't make ourselves.

French or anyone else need to feel the pain...... but others can't benefit from it too.....
 

Screambowl

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http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-fired-French-source/articleshow/53860527.cms
PARIS: Documents relating to Indian submarines were stolen from French naval contractor DCNS and not leaked, a French government+ source said on Thursday.

The source further said that the information published so far showed only operational aspects of the submarines+ .

India and France have opened investigations after The Australian newspaper published on Wednesday documents about its Scorpene submarines+ being built in India.

"It is not a leak, it is theft," the source said. "We have not found any DCNS negligence, but we have identified some dishonesty by an individual."
DCNS is either trying to save their arse or they are in panic.
Of course it is a leak and leak happened through stealing.

But they have said that these documents were not classified. Well everything is on public domain hence obviously they are not classified.
 

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