IN Scorpene Submarines - News & Discussions

[Rahul Singh]

Any further scorpene order should include significant indigenisation. A local AIP is must. Desiel propulsion too. Most if not all weaponry and sensors should be indigenous.......... This is how we could comfortably transition to fully(~) indigenous SSKs.

Status check.

Materials: DMR. Already in use.

AIP: Underdevelopment.

Desiel engines: Unknown, if at all.

Sensors: Sonars already developed and operational on many serving kilo class SSKs.

Weaponry:

A. Torpedoes- Varunsashtra and ATL undergoing trials. Can't comment in their compatibility with SSKs.

B. Missiles: Brahmos- already tested from pontoon. Integration status unkown. Nirbhay- In early development.

 

[Gessler]

Order more Scorpene probably with larger sizes with VLS & AIP

AIP? Sure. VLS launchers? Nope....it was never really a prerequisite even for P-75I. Only the Russian Amur-950 design included the option for a VLS module (which could launch both BrahMos Block-1 and Klub cruise missiles), with the intent of making their offer look more attractive to IN on an individual basis. IN/MoD never specifically asked for a VLS module.

The forthcoming successor BrahMos-NG is designed to be launched from any 533mm torpedo tube, meaning ANY future Indian submarine can fire them. Although tube-launching is not as efficient as vertical launches and threatens to lessen the number of actual anti-submarine torpedos that are carried...the incorporation of a VLS unit is an additional cost that's not operationally required as part of IN's current or planned doctrine, and is therefore simply not worth the money.

... augment the Mazagon production plant for scropenes ... It makes sense and saves time and money...

Agreed.

 

[garg_bharat]

Any further scorpene order should include significant indigenisation.

I doubt govt. will renegotiate earlier contract. The best is to exercise options.

A 9 ship class is a big enough class. No need to extend it further.

MDL has no spare capacity to build more.

A new shipyard (say L&T) does not stand to gain much from Scorpene as it already has accumulated much experience. Also if domestic sonar and weapons have to be integrated, then what is the utility of Scorpene design? How much worth should be given to power plant which is French? Or no Indian vendor can produce such a power plant?

The benefit of (I) in P75I is ONLY if boat is built to a local design.

"Navy’s plan was to learn from and absorb the best attributes of the western and Russian submarines and to gain from their differing design philosophies and manufacturing techniques, and to use them to come up with a wholly new design and indigenous production regime for a diesel hunter-killer submarine (SSK) to constitute the navy’s bulk sea denial force."

"The indecision has prevented, he maintains, the establishing of other standards such as for “the operating pressures of the hydraulics and high pressure air systems, pressure hull materials, weld normative, hydraulic and high-pressure air pipelines, manifolds, valves, etc.” common [to nuclear and conventional submarines] and deterred the build-up of local capacity. Were it otherwise, the “scale” of work would prompt investment in the latest tooling and other manufacturing wherewithal to produce different types of submarines by private sector companies, such as Larsen & Toubro, Tata, and Pipavav without whose participation fully indigenized production, Sushil believes, will languish at the elementary level of assembling from imported CKD (Completely Knocked Down) kits the DPSUs are stuck at. The under-utilization of the more capable and efficient private sector, as the regressive-minded defence production department in the ministry headed by the leftist A.K. Antony would have it, means the country can kiss self-reliance in armaments Good Bye."

 

[Abhi9]

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[garg_bharat]

VLS launchers? Nope

The Project 75I-class submarines will have a vertical launch system(VLS) to enable them to carry multiple Brahmossupersonic cruise missiles, making the submarines fully capable of anti-surface and anti-ship warfare missions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_75I-class_submarine

 

[bose]

AIP? Sure. VLS launchers? Nope....it was never really a prerequisite even for P-75I. Only the Russian Amur-950 design included the option for a VLS module (which could launch both BrahMos Block-1 and Klub cruise missiles), with the intent of making their offer look more attractive to IN on an individual basis. IN/MoD never specifically asked for a VLS module.

The forthcoming successor BrahMos-NG is designed to be launched from any 533mm torpedo tube, meaning ANY future Indian submarine can fire them. Although tube-launching is not as efficient as vertical launches and threatens to lessen the number of actual anti-submarine torpedos that are carried...the incorporation of a VLS unit is an additional cost that's not operationally required as part of IN's current or planned doctrine, and is therefore simply not worth the money.



Agreed.

Thanks for the clarifications... If I am not wrong DCNS did offered bigger Scorpene few years back as an tech upgrade to the existing one's... We should continue with 1 Scorpene every 9 months for future as it will make for the immediate shortfall ...

 

[garg_bharat]

Thanks for the clarifications... If I am not wrong DCNS did offered bigger Scorpene few years back as an tech upgrade to the existing one's... We should continue with 1 Scorpene every 9 months for future as it will make for the immediate shortfall ...

And I am sure they offered the upgrade for free?

Lot of French lovers on this message board. Seems France has really "cultivated" right people.

In an age where governments and companies pay posters on Internet for favorable posts, the drift is not hard to see.

 

[Zebra]

Any further scorpene order should include significant indigenisation. A local AIP is must. Desiel propulsion too. Most if not all weaponry and sensors should be indigenous.......... This is how we could comfortably transition to fully(~) indigenous SSKs.

Status check.

Materials: DMR. Already in use.

AIP: Underdevelopment.

Desiel engines: Unknown, if at all.

Sensors: Sonars already developed and operational on many serving kilo class SSKs.

Weaponry:

A. Torpedoes- Varunsashtra and ATL undergoing trials. Can't comment in their compatibility with SSKs.

B. Missiles: Brahmos- already tested from pontoon. Integration status unkown. Nirbhay- In early development.

Sir, how much days in stays submerged...!

 

[bose]

And I am sure they offered the upgrade for free? .

There nothing called free lunch ... Bigger [with tech upgrade] Scorpene with AIP will be a good idea rather than building a new types of submarines Like Amur - 950 or U214 types...

In fact when we built U209 some 20 years back at Mazagone we should have continued the production line with the later upgrades to U212 / U214, we would not have faced the shortfall... but we had discontinued it ...

Lot of French lovers on this message board. Seems France has really "cultivated" right people.

I have been arguing for last 2/3 years that it make sense to continue production line with bigger Scropene with AIP and go for SSN as a separate production line...

In an age where governments and companies pay posters on Internet for favorable posts, the drift is not hard to see.

I have been posting since April 2010, none gave me a penny... If you have some first hand knowledge then please enlighten us...

 

[Gessler]

The Project 75I-class submarines will have a vertical launch system(VLS) to enable them to carry multiple Brahmossupersonic cruise missiles, making the submarines fully capable of anti-surface and anti-ship warfare missions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_75I-class_submarine

Wikipedia is not a source. Furthermore, the particular line about VLS does not even have a citation.

For further logical conclusion, in the same Wiki article you quoted you can find a list of expected Contenders for the program. Please take a look at those submarines and ask yourself the question : How many of them actually come with a VLS module option? Answer is none. Except the Amur-950.

 

[Gessler]

Thanks for the clarifications... If I am not wrong DCNS did offered bigger Scorpene few years back as an tech upgrade to the existing one's... We should continue with 1 Scorpene every 9 months for future as it will make for the immediate shortfall ...

Incorporating an AIP module into an existing submarine is not a very neat procedure at all - as you actually have to cut open the pressure hull and piece it back again. You can be sure none of the first 4 Scorpenes will ever have an AIP upgrade.

Only the last 2 or the follow-on 3 can have the module, and only if we actually select which one to use beforehand. What I'm afraid of is if DRDO keeps delaying the development & testing of the indigenous AIP and as a consequence we are forced to lay off/stop construction progress of the submarine itself. The same can happen if the Navy/MoD fails to decide in time which AIP to use - indigenous or French MESMA-II. DRDO will obviously try to get their own AIP onboard...even if it means delaying the submarine induction by 1 or 2 years.

Thing is, the need to induct new submarines is a much greater & a more demanding operational requirement than the need to have "Made In India" stamped on the AIP.

 

[bose]

@Gessler When we decided to go for MII for Scorpenes we should have also gone for 2 to 3 off the shelf purchase while we build our own production line to offset any un foreseen situation later... Rather we are too confident ...

I would prefer an Indian AIP and hope DRDO comes up with it on schedule...

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler When we decided to go for MII for Scorpenes we should have also gone for 2 to 3 off the shelf purchase while we build our own production line to offset any un foreseen situation later... Rather we are too confident ...

Exactly.

I would prefer an Indian AIP and hope DRDO comes up with it on schedule...

Me too...BUT I hope we ensure that even in case of DRDO not keeping it's schedule, we must not delay the construction or outfitting of the Scorpenes at any cost. At that point, we must be ready to induct the Scorpenes even without AIP, and also keep the option open for an off-the-shelf buy of MESMA-II modules.

If the delays in indigenous AIP continue, immediately the project should be cancelled and purchase of foreign AIP should be sanctioned as soon as possible.

 

[Prashant12]

 

[Prashant12]

Scorpene Submarine Pics

 

[porky_kicker]

the additional scorpenes should incorporate all or some of these technologies like
1.pump jet propulsion ,
2.X-tail rudders ,
3.non-penetrating optronic masts
4.and maybe a plug-in module containing VLS to launch either brahmos or nirbhay or UAVs or UUVs or a combination of all the above.
and it goes without saying that AIP module should be a must in these additional scorpene submarines.

advance sonar and stealth technology from barracuda SSNs must be negotiate for to allow these additional submarines to remain a potent force in the future.

3-6 nos of these must be procured , i would prefer 6 to check mate porky acquisition of 8 chinese subs.

also these will open up transfer of tech and garner additional experience for designing Indian SSNs.

 

[MKM]

the additional scorpenes should incorporate all or some of these technologies like
1.pump jet propulsion ,
2.X-tail rudders ,
3.non-penetrating optronic masts
4.and maybe a plug-in module containing VLS to launch either brahmos or nirbhay or UAVs or UUVs or a combination of all the above.
and it goes without saying that AIP module should be a must in these additional scorpene submarines.

advance sonar and stealth technology from barracuda SSNs must be negotiate for to allow these additional submarines to remain a potent force in the future.

3-6 nos of these must be procured , i would prefer 6 to check mate porky acquisition of 8 chinese subs.

also these will open up transfer of tech and garner additional experience for designing Indian SSNs.

Australia preferred Barracuda that that doesn't mean all must have pump-jet but that is good idea to increase stealth features too but VLS with BrahMos must be there for next submarines for IN>

 

[porky_kicker]

Incorporating an AIP module into an existing submarine is not a very neat procedure at all - as you actually have to cut open the pressure hull and piece it back again.

what you said is right but only when the submarine is subjected to MLU (mid life upgrade)
however if the AIP is incorporated into the submarine hull during the construction phase itself then it is not a problem.

regarding the so called VLS plug in module it is not all about launching missiles ,

the so called VLS plug-in can launch
1.missiles like brahmos , nirbhay etc
2.air defense missiles
3.UUVs unmanned undersea vehicles
4.UAVs unmanned aerial vehicles
5. special forces troops while submerged via lock-in/lock-in chamber much like a dry deck shelter (DDS).

what i am talking about is a MODULAR PAYLOAD MODULE (not a VLS exactly) which can be replaced at shore with the relevant module depending on the mission requirement.

so basically the so called VLS plug-in is a BLANK PUG-IN which is capable of receiving any of the MODULAR PAYLOAD MODULES.

another idea is to install docking system for carriage of MARCOS DELIVERY VEHICLE (MDV) for covert action on enemy shores and installations and special missions .something like this

The SMX OCEAN now called the BARRACUDA SHORTFIN boats are designed to pack vertical launch tubes for land and surface attack long-range cruise missiles and even anti-aircraft missiles. This is all in addition to the standard forward firing torpedo tubes, although these too are capable of deploying anti-ship, anti-sub and even anti-air weaponry. In total, this innovative new SSK design will be able to pack an incredible amount of firepower, totaling 34 missiles, mines or torpedoes.


the disadvantage of using the torpedo tubes to launch missiles , UUVs etc is that the load-out of the primary weapons like torpedoes and mines is reduced considerably thereby defeating the primary capability of a submarine.

all we need to do is negotiate with the french who all ready have the technology and modify it a MODULAR PAYLOAD MODULE with the help of our Indian naval design bureau to allow its incorporation into the newer submarine aka SUPER-SCORPENE which will make it potent for a long time to come.

what i am saying is that we should look to the future
and be a trend setter rather than a trend follower

 

[porky_kicker]

Australia preferred Barracuda that that doesn't mean all must have pump-jet but that is good idea to increase stealth features too but VLS with BrahMos must be there for next submarines for IN>

depends on Indian naval requirements in the future

what you said is right but only when the submarine is subjected to MLU (mid life upgrade)
however if the AIP is incorporated into the submarine hull during the construction phase itself then it is not a problem.

regarding the so called VLS plug in module it is not all about launching missiles ,

the so called VLS plug-in can launch
1.missiles like brahmos , nirbhay etc
2.air defense missiles
3.UUVs unmanned undersea vehicles
4.UAVs unmanned aerial vehicles
5. special forces troops while submerged via lock-in/lock-in chamber much like a dry deck shelter (DDS).

what i am talking about is a MODULAR PAYLOAD MODULE (not a VLS exactly) which can be replaced at shore with the relevant module depending on the mission requirement.

so basically the so called VLS plug-in is a BLANK PUG-IN which is capable of receiving any of the MODULAR PAYLOAD MODULES.

another idea is to install docking system for carriage of MARCOS DELIVERY VEHICLE (MDV) for covert action on enemy shores and installations and special missions .something like this

The SMX OCEAN now called the BARRACUDA SHORTFIN boats are designed to pack vertical launch tubes for land and surface attack long-range cruise missiles and even anti-aircraft missiles. This is all in addition to the standard forward firing torpedo tubes, although these too are capable of deploying anti-ship, anti-sub and even anti-air weaponry. In total, this innovative new SSK design will be able to pack an incredible amount of firepower, totaling 34 missiles, mines or torpedoes.


the disadvantage of using the torpedo tubes to launch missiles , UUVs etc is that the load-out of the primary weapons like torpedoes and mines is reduced considerably thereby defeating the primary capability of a submarine.

all we need to do is negotiate with the french who all ready have the technology and modify it a MODULAR PAYLOAD MODULE with the help of our Indian naval design bureau to allow its incorporation into the newer submarine aka SUPER-SCORPENE which will make it potent for a long time to come.

what i am saying is that we should look to the future
and be a trend setter rather than a trend follower

all these if the no of additional scorpenes ordered is 4-6 , otherwise the cost incurred in the upgrades will not be economically viable.

 

[Gessler]

what you said is right but only when the submarine is subjected to MLU (mid life upgrade)
however if the AIP is incorporated into the submarine hull during the construction phase itself then it is not a problem.

The poster I replied to was of the opinion that we install AIP in the existing Scorpenes (first 4), AFTER their construction is over and they're in operational service. As I said, it's a not a preferred procedure as it is very expensive and presents problems like increased potential failure points in the hull because of extensive re-pairing.

An example is the Kilo-class submarine INS Sindhukirti, which was ripped open by HSL in 2004 - while that was the easy part, it took them almost 10 years to piece it back together.

That's why it's important to plan ahead on which submarines we want the AIP fitment - and also WHICH fitment we want. There is lots of scope for delays here - serves to be cautious.

what i am saying is that we should look to the future
and be a trend setter rather than a trend follower

True - but incidentally, the future you are seeing and the future that IN is seeing appears to be somewhat different! As of P-75I, the VLS module was not a specified requirement and is only available on the Amur-950. The Russians threw us a biscuit - an additional capability we never asked for.

It is said that once the larger "S-5" class SSBNs come online, the 3 Arihant-class boats will be converted to a dedicated SSGN role with VL cruise missiles.