Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Steven Rogers]

90% of the article and the dicussion is LCA related. While 0% of both adds anything to the topic if this thread, because the only relation was, that the author wrongly concluded LCA could take over the SE MMRCA requipment. Even your own statements were about LCA, which should make clear, that they have no importance in this thread.

SE MMRCA at current is turning to be a single vendor situation(with little to no competition ) , as far as Gripen is concerned, Gripen E won't be coming before 2023(For Swedish Airforce only) , while the current Gripen is an LCA. And Bl70 does stands in the mind with no prototype to demonstrate the capabilities. And don't forgot that Both Gripen and F16 "failed" to full fill IAF requirements at LEH, so it's not that this thread includes only two aircraft, but it also includes their competitor which is an indigenous result, LCA is a "Competitor " of both the fighter and will remain so until it defeats those two, and don't think that magic will be done and This gov will wrap up the deal for IAF, coz next year is elections and their rafale deal has already been questioned. And if you think that the deal will be sign in 2020, than you are forgetting that HAL, DRDO and ADA will be at more strong foot to offer LCA in mass.
Note:-the tender is 20 billion dollars.(Airforce can get the same no. in 15 billion dollars in the avatar of MK2, at the same time frame. ) And last, if the contract is signed in 2020 for f16s, then don't think iaf will get initial 18 from LM, coz last F16 has already been rolled out, and LM ain't gonna doing that again in future.

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[Kunal Biswas]

That 10% with key words of other jets derail the thread topic ..

If not by first person or second but surely by third and so on ..

90% of the article and the dicussion is LCA related..

 

[Kshithij]

Lol, you just confused yourself that's all. The de-linking of Kaveri from LCA MK1, has nothing to do with lobbying to get the Kaveri/Snecma engine, just as Uttam AESA or DARE EW into MK1A.

Then what delays in Tejas from DRDO lobby are you talking about? Don't run away from your own words.

 

[Kshithij]

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[Sancho]

That 10% with key words of other jets derail the thread topic ..

If not by first person or second but surely by third and so on ..

:biggrin2: The arbitrary moderation here is surely something one have to get used to. Content get merged to non related threads and now you are saying that you put it here, because "at some point", somebody might have said something that was not LCA related anymore. Sounds like minority report, but so be it.

 

[Sancho]

SE MMRCA at current is turning to be a single vendor situation

=>

Strategic Partnership model takes effect
...In a bid to avoid cancellation of deals in case of a single vendor situation, the policy states that “even if only one Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) submits a proposal in any given segment, the process of technical evaluation will be completed”.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/strategic-partnership-model-takes-effect/article18683421.ece

The DPP2016 also has new clauses, to include single vendor deals and after the Rafale deal, that's not an issue for this government anyway.

, as far as Gripen is concerned, Gripen E won't be coming before 2023(For Swedish Airforce only)

The first Gripen E will be delivered next year to Brazilian Air Force:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ighter-jet-contest.78028/page-95#post-1383547

And don't forgot that Both Gripen and F16 "failed" to full fill IAF requirements at LEH,

Not really, the reports about Leh problems came out in March 2010, Gripen NG did the trials in May and reportedly was successful. Not to mention that the issue was only some adjustments to the fuel systems of the fighters, that wasn't a big deal anyway. More problematic back then was, that Saab and Mig didn't had actual versions of the fighters they proposed.

The biggest issues in this tender is none of the false claims you made, but if funds are available for more MMRCAs, which with the condition of our economy is not guaranteed and if the PM wants another political deal, but this time in favour of the US? After Rafale and Ka226, an F16 deal can't be ruled out, even if it's the worst choice for IAF.

 

[tejas warrior]

=>

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/strategic-partnership-model-takes-effect/article18683421.ece

The DPP2016 also has new clauses, to include single vendor deals and after the Rafale deal, that's not an issue for this government anyway.



The first Gripen E will be delivered next year to Brazilian Air Force:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ighter-jet-contest.78028/page-95#post-1383547


Not really, the reports about Leh problems came out in March 2010, Gripen NG did the trials in May and reportedly was successful. Not to mention that the issue was only some adjustments to the fuel systems of the fighters, that wasn't a big deal anyway. More problematic back then was, that Saab and Mig didn't had actual versions of the fighters they proposed.

The biggest issues in this tender is none of the false claims you made, but if funds are available for more MMRCAs, which with the condition of our economy is not guaranteed and if the PM wants another political deal, but this time in favour of the US? After Rafale and Ka226, an F16 deal can't be ruled out, even if it's the worst choice for IAF.

Gripen NG prototype made its first flight in 2017. So, when did it reached Leh ?

 

[patriots]

if govt is thinking of tejas mk2
then there will be no sef tender

coz mk2 is similar to gripenE
then f16 without tot. is not a good choice

better we should focus on fgfa and amca

 

[WolfPack86]

=>

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/strategic-partnership-model-takes-effect/article18683421.ece

The DPP2016 also has new clauses, to include single vendor deals and after the Rafale deal, that's not an issue for this government anyway.



The first Gripen E will be delivered next year to Brazilian Air Force:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ighter-jet-contest.78028/page-95#post-1383547


Not really, the reports about Leh problems came out in March 2010, Gripen NG did the trials in May and reportedly was successful. Not to mention that the issue was only some adjustments to the fuel systems of the fighters, that wasn't a big deal anyway. More problematic back then was, that Saab and Mig didn't had actual versions of the fighters they proposed.

The biggest issues in this tender is none of the false claims you made, but if funds are available for more MMRCAs, which with the condition of our economy is not guaranteed and if the PM wants another political deal, but this time in favour of the US? After Rafale and Ka226, an F16 deal can't be ruled out, even if it's the worst choice for IAF.

Do you have any source that Gripen E did trials in India?.

 

[Pulkit]

if govt is thinking of tejas mk2
then there will be no sef tender

coz mk2 is similar to gripenE
then f16 without tot. is not a good choice

better we should focus on fgfa and amca

You stating that GripenE and F16 might kill mk2 which is very much true and even I am against it.
But thanks to the standstill during the UPA governmnet and Slow (the did move files)movement during the NDA we have not much options left.

We will loose close to 18 squads in next 10 years whereas we will be only inducting at max 10 as per the current orders by then. even if we place further orders in say next five years it will take 5 years to become reality.

What I think needs to done:
1) Increase order of MK1 by another 80 aircrafts making it 200 and introducing a new assembly line.Given the current rate we will have them all by 2030(Given we have another assembly line by 2022).
2)Make HAL meet its commitment in terms of MK1A and IAF stick to it . HAl has commitment of delivering by 2019.Lets say 2022 based on there history . Incase anything they are unable to meet it should be incorporated as the production continues but production shud start by 2022.
3) We are almost completing Su orders and we have the option to add 1-2 more squadrons of Su . It will not be actual addition but only be as cover up for losses in past and future make that number 300.
4) DRDO ADA should be made to complete Mk2 by 2025 so that the production can start by 2028 as that will be the time when we will start to retire few of the upgraded aircrafts.
5)IAF should have faith in MK2 and must induct 100 of them atleast which will only be delivered by 2035.
6) AMCA and FGFA will not be reality till 2025 and even after that i am not sure if the numbers will be high due to cost. so by 2035 lets say 2 squadron of each.

If all what i have stated happens then also we will not be able to get 42 squad by 2035. After 2035 we will start loosing Su also so we will be looking at FGFA to make up to it but it will be costly for sure.
2040 is the only timeline I can think of when we will have 42-45 squad stable for a brief period of time.

How is Mk2 similar to gripenE ? we donot have enough info to state they will be similar. Category doesnot define similarity here.
f16 is a good aircraft . donno if we will go for it or not. I prefer not.

 

[sthf]

Gripen NG prototype made its first flight in 2017. So, when did it reached Leh ?

...............................

 

[darshan978]

A Classic example of ToT is crystal blade which HAL produced cannot be used in other engines, HAL has to work with DRDO to develop a series of crystal blade in latter stage ..

Do we have SCB manufacturing capability? If yes does kaveri has SCB in high pressure turbine stage

 

[sthf]

They should not have envisioned it pessimistically or better say corrupt.....Least to say, only an idiot could imagine getting ToT and producing 100 plus SU-30MKIs from the raw material stage and still not acquiring enough know-how to carry out Mid Life Upgrade on its own.

Fairly realistic from their point of view. Indian defence industry still don't have anything new to offer. TOT is for existing technologies, nothing to do with the future ones.

The SU-30MKI deal was dipped in the syrup of corruption thanks to then DM Mulayam Singh.

Mullah Mulayam's corruption has nothing to do with this deal.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...s-from-3-rival-parties-saved-sukhoi-30.80269/

This Genesis is the reason why GOI is reluctant in signing FGFA --which is a natural follow-up to MKIs--with Russia because terms of ToT has not changed much. And this is the reason why this SEF deal will never materialize. As long as this government stays in power.

There is no evidence about FGFA from official channels. On the contrary, the committee headed by Air Marshal Simhakutty Varthaman (retd) recommended that PAK FA should be a part of IAF.

http://m.hindustantimes.com/india-n...s-top-panel/story-mPrhroM6ftEOSFldOtunnJ.html

Since IAF couldn't answer the simplest of questions "Why do you want to induct a fighter that failed the trials?", SEF is not going anywhere.

 

[Immanuel]

The only aircraft suitable for the imported SEF buy is the F-35 which is ideal for the timelines, else scrap this nonsense and order 200 LCA Tejas more.

 

[Kshithij]

The only aircraft suitable for the imported SEF buy is the F-35 which is ideal for the timelines, else scrap this nonsense and order 200 LCA Tejas more.

USA didn't sell it to Saudi Arabia. Will it sell to India?

 

[Sancho]

Gripen NG prototype made its first flight in 2017. So, when did it reached Leh ?

=> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ighter-jet-contest.78028/page-95#post-1383547

Gripen NG (tech demonstrator), made it's first flight in 2008 and was in India in May 2010 to do the MMRCA trials, after Saab send Gripen C/Ds first.

Gripen E, serial production version made it's first flight in 2017 and if the tender is officially started, will do trials in India for sure too.

Do you have any source that Gripen E did trials in India?.

See above.

 

[Sancho]

if govt is thinking of tejas mk2
then there will be no sef tender

coz mk2 is similar to gripenE

LCA MK2 = redesign to fix MK1s flight performance problems =>
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-news-and-discussions.1/page-760#post-1388526

Gripen E = redesign to be in the medium weight class, with comparable load capabilities and capabilities.


LCA MK2 according to Air Chief Dhanoa is expected around 2027.

Gripen E will be available from 2019 onwards.

So no matter if you look at weight class, capability or time line, they don't match and are meant for different requirements.
Tejas can't compete with MMRCAs, nor can we afford to wait any further with China advancing so fast in technical and numerical terms.

 

[Sancho]

The only aircraft suitable for the imported SEF buy is the F-35 which is ideal for the timelines, else scrap this nonsense and order 200 LCA Tejas more.

F35 is not on offer for India, LM says buy F16 now and get F35 in future. But similarly, if we get F18s now to get EMALS, the F35C will be available for sure too, no need for F16s that are bad for India in every way.

 

[tejas warrior]

LCA MK2 = redesign to fix MK1s flight performance problems =>
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-news-and-discussions.1/page-760#post-1388526

Gripen E = redesign to be in the medium weight class, with comparable load capabilities and capabilities.


LCA MK2 according to Air Chief Dhanoa is expected around 2027.

Gripen E will be available from 2019 onwards.

So no matter if you look at weight class, capability or time line, they don't match and are meant for different requirements.
Tejas can't compete with MMRCAs, nor can we afford to wait any further with China advancing so fast in technical and numerical terms.

Could you please tell me when Gripen E will achive FOC ? (I heard its 2025, feeling too lazy to ask Google the moment)

(I am only asking for year, don't justify why FOC is not required etc.)

Moreover, they have a HISTORY of being getting CRASHED multiple time while in testing before FOC !! (I hope you don't need a Source, just ask Google)

 

[Kay]

Su MKI can do everything that these planes can do and more - so capability wise and number wise we are covered - I hope the lobbysts stop the repetitive scare mongering - at this point is it's plain silly.