Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[mayfair]

@Krusty has pointed this out. Our IT industry is not really known for cutting edge products. We are a service-based industry and lower wages ensure this. How many top level software or IT solutions have emerged from India or India-based innovation hubs?

Baby steps are right and Tejas is a baby step. With this plane we are taking the first steps towards self-reliance. A baby when starts walking fumbles and topples over- you don't abandon the baby, you help him/her.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Trust me when I say this, our IT industry is a joke and is headed for a crash. We do not offer anything great interms of quality and innovation. We do the maintenance job far too cheap. When someone else comes along who can do it cheaper out IT industry will collapse. BTW china has already started making inroads and so is Philippines. Not to mention countries are starting to wake up and putting the needs of their citizens first. Our IT industry is headed for some very bad times.

It is again just cheap screwdriver tech. What IT company do we have that can challenge Microsoft/oracle/SAP/Computer associates/Salesforce/Google/Apple ? Absolutely nothing. I have a many more in mind.

Brother I have first hand experience of dealing with Infosys people. trust me if Indian IT is a monumental joke headed for a crash. With AI and automation, 60-70% of IT guys will become redundant. As for India being able to build its Aerospace ecosystem with this deal, I can assure u it will not happen with this deal because Americans will not allow u to touch the main parts of the aircraft-sensors, radars and engines not to mention the source code which will never be shared. I am not blaming them but no country gives up its IPR for money or friendship and why should it. People talking about Tata getting aircraft manufacturing experience forget that Tata's have decades of experience with motor vehicle assembly line but does anyone buy a Tata car. No everyone buys a Toyota because what is inside a Toyota is what matters. Are we ready to sign CSMOA and BECA without which this deal is impossible. If you sign CSMOA and BECA , it will be the biggest self goal India has done and generals in rawalpindi will be doing a bhangra. Finally even from cost angle if we factor in spare parts purchase of radars, engines and sensors, I can bet we will end up spending USD200mn per plane. AESA radar modules heat up very fast and need expensive coolants and regular replacements of modules which will have to be imported. 150 F16s will end up locking USD30bn which is more than 60% of our AF acquisition budget. Finally even 42 squadrons will not be enougg in a 2 front war, what we need for a 2 front war is a world class Air defence network both on our east and west coupled with cheap conventional strike missiles like brahmos and pralay to knock out enemy airfields. No one will come to our rescue in 2 front war, not even US and so its upto us to spend USD30bn wisely in expanding our missile/AD capability not wasting it on LM and Tata executive bonus. A part of USD30bn should be spent on more rafales which are far more potent than F16s.

 

[Ancient Indian]

Nope. We had benchmarked our own Super computer in Zurich back in 1991. Oh we had the ability. Then businesses found easy money in providing screwdriver support. Which eventually became the industry trend. Now it's a rot. This isn't Baby steps anymore. The danger facing the IT industry is very real..

You misread institutional support in my post. I am not saying we didn't do any thing as a nation.

I am talking from general public pov. These tech things are alien to them. Because of IT boom, many learnt how it works. At least they are able to meet our basic needs. That is the change I am talking about. The environment it creates.

Our government did nothing to bring the people out of their ignorant shells. It is all private participation that changed the basic environment in our country.

I think we are derailing this thread. We can do this on chitchat thread.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

You misread institutional support in my post. I am not saying we didn't do any thing as a nation.

I am talking from general public pov. These tech things are alien to them. Because of IT boom, many learnt how it works. At least they are able to meet our basic needs. That is the change I am talking about. The environment it creates.

Our government did nothing to bring the people out of their ignorant shells. It is all private participation that changed the basic environment in our country.

I think we are derailing this thread. We can do this on chitchat thread.

And how many of those IT companies seeded Indian google's and microsofts-not even 1. Infact IT culture made Indians more not less risk averse compared to China which has seeded world class companies like Alibaba and Xiaomi.

 

[mavles ihctep]

I think manohar parrikar was removed from defence ministry due to american lobby.
America wants to make money from indian fighter jet program and kill Lca.

After parrikar was removed from defence ministry, lca program has been put in cold storage.

 

[mayfair]

Actually it was Parrikar who first spoke about the "Make in India singe engine fighter programme". So the idea seems to have traction from top to bottom.

 

[mavles ihctep]

Another thing is our country is corrupt to core.We hav institutionalised corruption.In every government project contract politicians and officials get 10-30% commission.
I don't think it will be any different in defence ministry.Imagine a 20 percent cut in 10 billion dollar weapon purchase. Our politicians and officials will get 2 billion dollars.That is hell lot of money.
But no one is bothered about this institutionalised corruption.Everyone is asking for share in commission.no one is recognising this as a crime.
When i was in school politicians and media was spreading false dawn, like we will become superpower in 2010.Its 2016 and india is still same poor country.
Without eliminating this institutionalised corruption, we will remain forever most filthy and poor country in the world

 

[mavles ihctep]

Actually it was Parrikar who first spoke about the "Make in India singe engine fighter programme". So the idea seems to have traction from top to bottom.

I think he only used that route for better bargaining with Dassault

 

[mayfair]

Sure they do not. You do...:bounce:

Sarcastic aside, I'm pointing out a basic fact: young pilot (at least one) is questioning LCA. So it's not just IAF top brass as people claimed. The only legitimate argument will be ratio of young guns welcome it (or not).

For one pilot or air-chief questioning the LCA there are plenty others who have praised the aircraft for its handling, performance and other features. LCA test pilots are on deputation from IAF.

It has passed each and every trial comprehensively and more importantly is not a development dead end.

 

[mavles ihctep]

Another thing, IAF didn't hav single AESA equipped fighter jet.But they want AESA in every single LCA jet.
HAL idiots will try to fix aesa in LCA for another 10 years.after 10 years lca wil become another arjun project

 

[smestarz]

A few years back Tata Motors was in loss, and they wanted to sell of their passenger car div, They approached Ford, and Ford almost insulted Tata saying something like " why do something when you dont know how to handle it ..." Tata left the meeting, and later they became stronger and took the loss making Jaguar and Landrover brands from Ford, and in which Ford thanked Tata for saving their bacon and Tata turned these brands around.

LM is purely in defence where as Tata is in many things and also defence,

Can you mention which Tata companies are in loss?Some losses in couple of quarters may be.LM is nowhere near the Tata Group.

TCS alone has a market cap of 72bn usd LM group whole is capped at 86bn.Add Just tata motors and tata steel mcap and see which is bigger.

 

[mayfair]

That's not really fair. IAFs new acquisition are all supposed to come with AESA- Rafales, FGFA. It's a part of the operational doctrine. It was one of the key elements of MRCA.

LCA with ELTA radar would be good.

 

[Ancient Indian]

For one pilot or air-chief questioning the LCA there are plenty others who have praised the aircraft for its handling, performance and other features. LCA test pilots are on deputation from IAF.

It has passed each and every trial comprehensively and more importantly is not a development dead end.

LCA is really great considering the support and situation we have at home.

If they have some good facilities, they(the true team not the baggage) would have beaten all the competition out there. For that they need good environment. we need to change the environment.

Lets propose some solutions to change it. I don't see anything other than privatising the whole industry.

 

[SATISH]

We need to bring up squadron numbers and fast. Even thought the decision sounds crappy it is the only way to move forward. TATA and Reliance are trying to learn a crash course on assembling and manufacturing aircraft parts. Good for Indian industry.

The F 16s would be a great replacement for the twin engine Jaguars and MiG 27. The Rafale can go and replace the Mirage 2000.

 

[WARREN SS]

Your point and problem is it's not upgraded as much is it? Please wait for some great new reveals for the short comings stated by you. I am convinced my point is fact. Further waiting will prove it.

No Its To slow To Replace depleting Numbers And No way It can replace Mig-27 Mig-23


My Point Is Fact you ever visited HAL hanger To do you know how skilled they are ??

LCA is Far from being A potent platform in current stage

LCA MK1A is not even picture yet hell there not even prototype And We all Know how good HAl babus good at shifting dead lines And putting carrot out

 

[Aghore_King]

Prasun sengupta is suggesting new Hal bae modified hawk advanced jet which can be procured at cheap cost..

 

[tharun]

IAF didn't hav single AESA equipped fighter jet.But they want AESA in every single LCA jet.

Yes IAF didn't have a single AESA jet so that they want aesa on every jet that they going to buy.

HAL idiots will try to fix aesa in LCA for another 10 years.

So you are thinking that you can easily put a aesa radar just like a light buld huh...integration takes lot of time.You need right parameters and cooling system and software should be written and tested.

 

[WARREN SS]

OT: swift is Japanese. Man don't mess up when trying to make a serious point. It becomes hilarious

Coming to your point, if you can afford BMWs then by all means, go ahead. But the majority can't, so swift it is.

Even if Swift It not feasible To your requirements And needs

F-16 are much better and Mature platform than LCA .Numbers speaks for itself 4500

Not an aircraft Which rejected numerous times by its primary customer IAF

And Project itself is hanging around area of uncertainty

Look I take LCA as a Whole project Not aircraft because currently its Not what we want Today Certainly nt in this form but Technically What we learn from this project Paves the way of future Products like Amca & FGFA

As of now it seems the reality is that either F16 or Gripen in a very good amount of probability , can happen.

1. In case of F16 , we are dealing with only 1 nation , ie USA. With Gripen , we are dealing with much of Europe, Brazil, USA , UK , all of them who have different laws as to how to act in case a customer is at war. Further India does not enjoy best of the relations with all these plethora of nations.

2. F16 are here for the next 30 years. USA is now trying to extend its service till 2048, and it still is getting export orders. And it is a capable platform, meaning it has the probability of more export too.(Look At how We stretched Migs and Jaguars )

3.It is a proven platform and more capable one to one against Gripen NG.

4. IAF knows F16 inside out at least 100 times more than it knows Gripen.

5. LM.can deliver 24-26 F16s by 2022, when SAAB will be working only to start the production of Gripen NG.


Even with 10 squads of F-16/Gripen and 10 squads of Rafale, IAF still needs 20 squadrons by 2032. And from 2032-2042, IAF will need another 10 squadrons to replace old jets. So the requirements are so high that even Gripen and Rafale cannot fulfill numbers.

If you recall, I used to talk about a 3rd MMRCA also.

 

[tharun]

Prasun sengupta is suggesting new Hal bae modified hawk advanced jet which can be procured at cheap cost..

Beta Hawk is trainer,you can't take it to battle. Of course you can use it as a close air support,that too if the enemy didn't have man portable SAM's.

 

[WARREN SS]

And cost.

Otherwise, why not go for Rafales instead of the one generation old near-obsolete F-16s?

how F-16 Obsolete

That to a F-16 blk 70

Look at its AESA Apg 83

I think F-16 blk 70 potent system to counter army Of PLAAF 4th generation might serving them next 30 years


Who told Rafale is not coming after Single engine tender there will be another RFP for Twin engine

I am all for LCA as long as it comes, otherwise .. it is toast. I think that is how market economics work and that is how they should work. So, if HAL is able to provide the necessary platform, fair enough, otherwise LCA TD (Tech Development Program) will give spin offs for other projects ... LCA was envisaged as a Tech Developer. Same as Agni was Agni IRBM TD, Prithvi was SRBM TD, Trishul TD, Akash TD and Nag TD

They all are classified as Project ______ not as platforms. Hence, LCA is project, Tejas one aspect of the same.