Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[square]

That would be without spares and weapons. Add the 2 and you will pay USD25-30bn for sure.

that be cheap too......26 countries are maintaining without any compalient...

 

[SanjeevM]

A fighter contract is not one contract but multiple contracts rolled into one. Let us analyze this F16 deal and we can easily work out the costs. I believe this deal will consist of following sub contracts
1) manufacture of main F16 structure and spare parts: This part will be in Rupees and hugely beneficial to us as Tata will be doing bulk of the work but Lockheed will take royalties every year for sure
2) Manufacture of EW systems, radars and their spare parts: On this I am 100% sure that not one part will be manufactured in india and all components will come to India in finished form and will be screwed into main body.Moreover spare parts exports from US to India is subject to Congressional oversight.
3) Repair and maintenance of radars and EW systems: here also I am not sure how much Indian engineers will be involved. We will have to rely on US engineers and make them stay in expensive 7 star facilities paid by Tata (reimbursed by GOI) for their period of stay in India.
4) Manufacture of engine and spare parts: Same as 2)
5) Repair of engines: Same as 3 although some basic repairs may be done by tata engineers.
6) Manufacture of weapons and spare parts: Totally under US control and Congressional oversight.

So except for point 1) there is nothing MII about F16 deal and from cost angle point 1) is only 25-30% of aircraft cost. Extrapolating from F16 deals with bahrain, qatar, iraq my own estimate of 150 F16 Block 70 jets is USD 20-25bn at least since we will be doing bulk purchase of engines, radars, sensors from US suppliers in dollars (and LM will get a cut from those suppliers). Now my question is what is the tearing hurry to spend USD20-25bn and jeopardize FGFA, rafale and our own AMCA. Moreover for mere USD5bn we can have an excellent AD network over China borders. This deal will forever end any chance of domestic ecosystem for fighter jets and will be a disaster for India. If LM can share key technologies for F16 radars, sensors etc with tata, I am all for spending USD25bn and even more as we can involve tata in AMCA but no country pays USD25bn for screwdriving. My suggestion is:
1) Buy 2 squadrons each of Su30MKI and Mig29: Cost USD5-6bn and 80 aircrafts are added immediately.
2) Strengthen AD network on borders by building more Akash/Barak NG systems: Cost 4 bn USD
3) Focus on LCA expansion and AMCA as national mission with public private partnership: Cost USD10bn+ and reward is infinite
4) Wait for some more time and buy 2 more squads of rafales for USD 5-6bn

The latter approach will give far more bang for buck than buying F16 and spending our precious forex while getting zilch in return except fattening LM and Tata bank balance along with those bureaucrats, politicos and AF officials and returning to this cycle after 2 more decades.

Good analysis. Points are valid here.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

that be cheap too......26 countries are maintaining without any compalient...

Maintaining an aircraft is different from buying spares. if something goes wrong with the radar or seeker you cannot rely on Tata, they would not even know what is inside. You will have to go back to LM who will contact their supplier like Northorp and charge a 400-500% markup on the replacement (taking 100-200% cut for themselves). All of this will be embedded in contract. And thats between a third to half of value of contract. So add 5-7 bn USD over 15bn at least.

 

[Ancient Indian]

Why else would LM be willing to shift F-16 production to India if we are not buying it? It makes no sense for them, especially since they claim that component suppliers will most likely remain in US. This is the same reason that Dassault offered to "transfer" MIrage 2000 production line to India if we bought 126 Mirage 2000-5s. This is why Airbus opened a line in China, to sell to Chinese airline comapnies.

We might buy it. But won't be in huge numbers. What LM offering is, very sweet deal on paper. Recently, they shifted assembling units from old place to new one. Now they are planning to shift entire assembling units to India.
See this link
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/article140090128.html

My point is not about buying and inducting F-16 into our forces. Look at the picture. There are above 4000 F-16 in service all over the world. If we get the assembling units which provide service and maintenance, imagine the business. @Krusty
This deal is entirely different compared to other deals.

Members have valid concerns and the grounding of indigenous product is not some unfounded fear, but rooted in reality. Do look up what happened to Marut in favour of screwdrivergiri imports. IAF has put up extreme and sometimes unreasonable requirements for LCA and are you aware when Mirage 2000s were first inducted, the plane could barely fire a gun? During MRCA trials, Eurofighter was permitted to test their AESA radar on a bloody helicopter!! Can you even imagine something like this for Tejas?

IAF has a hard-on for shiny imported toys at the expense of indigenous products, whom they derisively label Khadi Gram Udyog.

It is never been about IAF fleet. Our IAF babus are corrupted to core. I am being sarcastic about their patriotism. What we order from LM is very low in number compared to total F-16 sales.

If we can make good deal out of it, the whole eco-system will be changed.

But this is what IAF is hell bent on. Just have a look at the step motherly treatment to Tejas, in contrast to fawning admiration for Western/Roosi products. We have successive air marshals run down the Tejas programme, Matheshwaran (who has no joined Reliance and involved in Dassault partnership for Rafales) called it a three-legged Cheetah. Our last chief said of Rafales that "There is no plan B"

Again it has nothing to do with this JV. 100 F-16s won't change the big numbers. What we have to do is reform our IAF and punish those who does corruption. We can't stunt our whole aerospace industry just because some IAF babus will do some mischief. We have to make IAF chiefs do their job properly.

Trump could have been appeased in many other ways- place orders for more C-130Js, P8Is and even C-17s if possible. As you said, it's difficult to see what benefits we get from this deal instead of investing in LCA and AMCA for the future.

This deal won't affect LCA or AMCA. If the leadership is good, no one will do mischief. We can't rely on hired muscle power all the time.

Or accept that people can have different views.

People can have different views but not at the cost of economic growth.

We have to bite this bullet in order to boost the Industrial sectors. We talk about china and it's industrial powers but won't do same when offered to us.

 

[square]

Maintaining an aircraft is different from buying spares. if something goes wrong with the radar or seeker you cannot rely on Tata, they would not even know what is inside. You will have to go back to LM who will contact their supplier like Northorp and charge a 400-500% markup on the replacement (taking 100-200% cut for themselves). All of this will be embedded in contract. And thats between a third to half of value of contract. So add 5-7 bn USD over 15bn at least.

aesa radars won't break down that frequently.......and the countries maintaning this fighter , few are not even 1/25 of indian gdp......chilllllllll

 

[mayfair]

@Tarun Kumar well said. My biggest concern with this deal is the opaqueness of the whole thing. More than the airframe it's the "lifecycle support" and the weapons that's the real killer.

This is why we are full of Roosi maal, that has apparently inexpensive "upfront" costs, but then we find ourselves getting stuffed on spares and weapons etc. From Mig-21s to T-90s, the story has been the same.

This is not to say that Amreeki maal is that much better- a host of alphabet soup MAA-BEHAN agreements, no sharing of technology on really critical equipment and of course the killer EULA etc.

When will we realise that self-reliance is the only way to go.

 

[Pulkit]

I understand the availability rates, as of what I've read on DFI threads somebody mentioned that we are getting good at making availability for MKIs but Mig-29s, Mig-21 Bison's, Jag's etc they need some serious ground work.

yes they do. that's why there was a availability clause in Rafale deal.

IMHO, hiccups will occur but at our current dire situation, I'd say 28 at best are ready for a fight.

28 is not bad given we have 33 in hand. i will be happy with that percentage if we had 42-44 Squad

A friend at Loheygaon airforce base, currently undergoing combat jet training has said to me and I quote, "we aren't ready yet, cause there aren't many birds fit enough to take up a war", and in his own words and I quote again, "Tejas was inducted in the IAF to make some of the top brasses, and people higher on the food chain happy, we at IAF think it's just an hour of the need, it's no special plane at all, but a indigenous manufacturing have high hope for us in future".

Nice U have a friend in IAF . I know a few in Army and Navy.
Ex defense personal tell me that Tejas is fit to be the Work Horse but they have certain reservations aswell in terms of numbers.
In current form they want not more than 20.
Tejas HAL upgraded they suggested a number close to 80.
Then Tejas Mk2 close to 120.

Total 220 Tejas.

 

[Tarun Kumar]

aesa radars won't break down that frequently.......and the countries maintaning this fighter , few are not even 1/25 of indian gdp......chilllllllll

A radar does not have to break down for us to need spare parts. There are hundreds of minor defects which may necessitate minor replacements, each being paid for on a 400-500% markup. 7bn USD is bare minimum we will have to pay extra over USD15bn for these 150 F16s . In fact the actual figure might be closer to 10-12 billion on top of USD15bn. for USD25-27bn, I can purchase S400 and build a multilayer AD network consisting of Akash,akash NG, barak and barak NG with money to spare to buy few squads of Su30/Mig 29. Thats worth 20 squad airforce right there or 400 aircrafts and we will get 150 aircrafts for that price

 

[square]

A radar does not have to break down for us to need spare parts. There are hundreds of minor defects which may necessitate minor replacements, each being paid for on a 400-500% markup. 7bn USD is bare minimum we will have to pay extra over USD15bn for these 150 F16s . In fact the actual figure might be closer to 10-12 billion on top of USD15bn. for USD25-27bn, I can purchase S400 and build a multilayer AD network consisting of Akash,akash NG, barak and barak NG with money to spare to buy few squads of Su30/Mig 29. Thats worth 20 squad airforce right there or 400 aircrafts and we will get 150 aircrafts for that price

if we won't let our private industry takeoff now , then after 30 years we will be keep buying again......its the right time to take this step.....tatas will be taking care of f16 for next 30-35 years.....good enough time for indian industry to grow , not everything we going to get on the first day......its a evolution process......

 

[Tarun Kumar]

if we won't let our private industry takeoff now , then after 30 years we will be keep buying again......its the right time to take this step.....tatas will be taking care of f16 for next 30-35 years.....good enough time for indian industry to grow , not everything we going to get on the first day......its a evolution process......

What care will tatas be taking. They cant even touch the radars and EW systems or sensors or engines which are all proprietary. they can at best produce parts for the outer shell. And we as taxpayers will be paying USD 25bn for that. Thats like a chowkidar paying his owner to guard his property.

 

[square]

What care will tatas be taking. They cant even touch the radars and EW systems or sensors or engines which are all proprietary. they can at best produce parts for the outer shell. And we as taxpayers will be paying USD 25bn for that. Thats like a chowkidar paying his owner to guard his property.

let me ask you what we know about cars 30 years back......govt take the initiative and join hand and extablish maruti udyog....japanise too initially not allow us to open then main components , engine , gearbox , streering unit ......

so , whats the situation today , even a roadside machanic can open the engine now....

same is the story of a cycle maker hero ......

bsjaj too initial join hand with kavasaki...

we learn , but exposure is required...

today , ourside hal , non of indian industry dare to touch a fighter plane , because they have no idea about this machine.....they will learn , its going to make here by our people....

 

[airtel]

What care will tatas be taking. They cant even touch the radars and EW systems or sensors or engines which are all proprietary. they can at best produce parts for the outer shell.

can we touch radars and EW systems or sensors or engines of Tejas ??

 

[WARREN SS]

LCA is hardly low end. Neither are F-16s top notch in todays context. Moreover, they are two different planes.

Lol what Top Notch F-16 blk 70 lack s in today perspective when majority of are AF flying Soviet mig-21 ones

LCA is an indigenous product, can be customised, improved, re-designed, upgraded, embellished far more easily and flexibly. Not to mention that valuable experience gained in designing and manufacturing a truly indigenous plane.

Is that Helping Falling Squadrons

What Is the best Combat radius of LCA Today in hi-to-ho missions With Payload Hell When Will it get FOC

LCA MK1A is still exist on paper

LCA is hardly low end. Neither are F-16s top notch in todays context. Moreover, they are two different planes.

The biggest problem with F-16s is that they are at a development dead end. Nothing knew can be added or nothing new can be learned by assembling them locally.

LCA is an indigenous product, can be customised, improved, re-designed, upgraded, embellished far more easily and flexibly. Not to mention that valuable experience gained in designing and manufacturing a truly indigenous plane.

We have been doing screwdrivergiri for ages and where has it gotten us? Why go for more of the same?

Even With Making Indigenous Platform What We are got depleting Squadrons Mythical hal promises

Lets Say we face two front war in 2025 against PLAAF and PAF

What you are expecting A Mythical promise of HAL babus that LCA With Be at par With Chinese Aviation might of ,J-10 J-11,J-15,J-16

 

[Filtercoffee]

If LM wants to help India's national interests they are throughly welcome.

 

[square]

reliance adag group enters jv with thales , to maintain and integrate radar and EW systems, on rafale....

 

[WARREN SS]

Guys i am Also in favor indigenous platforms but In In-real World We Need Substitute of depleting squadrons ASAP

And I lost my hope in DRDO babus Myself Guys I am My self bureaucrat That to Defense audit department

And F-16 Block 70 is best strategical bet we placed For decades MOD Supported DPSU and there monopoly Due to licence raaj

Its Best we move things to our Private players The Experience TATA Will get in making F-16 will help building AMCA and future projects helps country in long run


Lol Please Prove its technically inferior To Inventories of our nemesis specially PLAAF And its army Of ,J-10 J-11,J-15,Su-30 MKK

 

[roma]

no doubt most of you are very knowledgeable on the topic and im far less so

the only "good" thing about this f16 matter is that we might really need the planes now and to wait for lca1a is too long a wait

in general other than isro all other goi associated entities usually take their own sweet time to deliver any and all products and the process drags on and on with all kinds of legal statements to protect against non development on time, a job badly done and incomplete work

the decision and strategy involved in the purchase of f16 assembly lines can valuably serve as a warning to all goi scientific and engineering entities plus also to the india tax payer that if or rather when and as these goi bodies take their own sweet time then the nation cant wait and has to give the business and money to foreign companies and we continue to be the biggest importer in the world and inferior to china in our manufacturing capability

the taxpayer should realise that the indian goi organisation and it's corrupt culture is the problem and is costing all of india literally billions and billions of wastage by importing foreign products

indian people have given quite a lot of emphasis to scientific improvement and even though we still have a long way to go at least it is reasonably on it's way .-..... and now the stark gaping hole in the system is our lack of management controls and the rampant corruption in various places of the system

unfortunately merely voting Modi into office doesn't do it all .....there's much more to be done !

@WARREN SS @square @Ramdasrathsuryavanshi @airtel @Tarun Kumar
@Pulkit @mayfair @Ancient Indian @SanjeevM @scatterStorm
@Butter Chicken @smestarz @Akshay Fenix

 

[Kay]

Corruption is not the only problem. We spend very little on RnD. The F-16 we are discussing is of BLOCK 70. If we have an LCA BLOCK 70, it's capability will be very different. There are very good reasons others would oppose it.
Depleting squadron strength can be addressed by more production lines. Most of the arguments for an F16 have been countered in this thread. We don't need any other single engine fighter - we simply need to ramp up Tejas production.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Corruption is not the only problem. We spend very little on RnD. The F-16 we are discussing is of BLOCK 70. If we have an LCA BLOCK 70, it's capability will be very different. There are very good reasons others would oppose it.
Depleting squadron strength can be addressed by more production lines. Most of the arguments for an F16 have been countered in this thread. We don't need any other single engine fighter - we simply need to ramp up Tejas production.

LCA MK 1A is at par with the block 70. Sparing the F - 16 A/Bs low turn rate and lower Gs pulled, its a great munitions carrier.

 

[Kay]

Fighter development or any weapon development is a just like any other craft perfected through practice and iterations. It's not a one-time activity to be abandoned later like the Marut.