Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

Bhoot Pishach

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HAL has permanent employees and have to be fed with regular work. This is same even with contractors in real estate.



F16 has range of 2000km while Tejas has 1700km with internal fuel and without weapons. With same weight of weapons, Tejas will have lower range. F16 is also capable of holding 1ton drop tank in the centre and yet have 8 hard point with decent payload of 5.5 tons. In Tejas, if 1 ton drop tank is used, then payload will reduce to 2-2.5 ton with 6 hardpoints left which is significantly low.

Tejas does have problems with size and payload. Tejas also requires an EW pod and Jammer pod whereas it can be fitted within F16. In combat capability, Tejas has much lower RCS than F16 and may have an edge in BVR combat due to small size and composite covering 60% of airframe.

1 F16 = 1.5 Tejas in terms of payload.
1 F16 = 1.5 Tejas in terms of range with optimal payload and drop tanks
1 F16 = 0.5 Tejas in terms of RCS
1 F16 = 4 Tejas in terms of cost

The presstitutes are doing a hitjob. I think they are frustrated that MoD is not giving any information nowadays and are arm-twisting by spreading fake rumours. They are forcing MoD to respond with facts and figures so that the foreign agents can get better information about Indian progress. I can only hope that MoD will never share any information whatsoever with media under such arm-twisting pressure.
Bro!! Who restricted Tejas wrt dimensions of MIG-21, who was looking for replacement of MIG-21????

It is IAF itself to blame if Tejas is designed so, 300Km 2000-1700 (range short of F-16 ONLY).

EW and Jammer due the the same reason only.

Why dont you compare it with Grippne - C/D????

If you want to compare it with F-16; Grippne - NG do so with Tejas-MK2.

Instead to putting money on a legacy aircraft better put in on Tejas project.
 
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Bhoot Pishach

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:facepalm:
I wrote batting, not betting, dumbass. Vowels matter!
Not gonna bother with this guy, who has to have GEOPOLITICS spelt out to get the point. Unless you have been deaf & blind since Trump got elected, it should be pretty obvious which way the wind is blowing. Add to that increasing Russian tendency to be untrustworthy/unreliable/troublesome... and one should get the whole drift....
Keep it with you Kale-Angraj.

Geopolitics are for India only, it is India which has to take all the way laying down, at the bottoms be it USSR/Russia, France, USA. Every body come and stick their GEOPOLITICS in the bottoms of India.

Go and lick the Trump's. While Trump licks China's which is protruding through North Korea's.

Be it, Trump can't do glitch about NK forget about China.

It is China which is playing the ball and Trump is standing in the sand without any clue.
 
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Kshithij

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Bro!! Who restricted Tejas wrt dimensions of MIG-21, who was looking for replacement of MIG-21????

It is IAF itself to blame if Tejas is designed so, 300Km 2000-1700 (range short of F-16 ONLY).

EW and Jammer due the the same reason only.

Why dont you compare it with Grippne - C/D????

If you want to compare it with F-16; Grippne - NG do so with Tejas-MK2.

Instead to putting money on a legacy aircraft better put in on Tejas project.
Tejas MK2 i for that. MK2 will have 3-3.2 ton fuel and will have additional space for EW, Jammer etc. And, it is progressing well. Kaveri engine is the only thing remaining to mass manufacture.

I am a severe critic of F16 and favour Tejas greatly. I want to wait before ordering any more Tejas till Kaveri engine and MK2 are made. which is about 3-4 years. Till then, the existing Tejas order is sufficient enough. No need for F16 or anything else.

Keep calm and don't get fired up. I never recommended any imported goods and never will.
 

Bhoot Pishach

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No, IAF is only demanding for more RAFALEs with defamation tactics. Thats all.
And if you're pointing towards Mr. S. Aroor than you should know that at last he is a journalist who likes more foreign income..
Infact you are correct.

It is the demand of Rafale, hence this arm twisting is all about.

No my point is, if he is saying these things openly that means something is not correct. (There can not be smoke without fire).

He cannot say so without some proof. Otherwise MOD & IAF will be at his throat.

Till now nobody denied his story, be it IAF or MOD. Let the facts emerge.
 

Bhoot Pishach

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Tejas MK2 i for that. MK2 will have 3-3.2 ton fuel and will have additional space for EW, Jammer etc. And, it is progressing well. Kaveri engine is the only thing remaining to mass manufacture.

I am a severe critic of F16 and favour Tejas greatly. I want to wait before ordering any more Tejas till Kaveri engine and MK2 are made. which is about 3-4 years. Till then, the existing Tejas order is sufficient enough. No need for F16 or anything else.

Keep calm and don't get fired up. I never recommended any imported goods and never will.
You Equated range of F-16 with Tejas-MK1, hence so was my reply.

MK-2 was never mentioned by you.

I just corrected the comparison.
 

TPFscopes

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Infact you are correct.

It is the demand of Rafale, hence this arm twisting is all about.

No my point is, if he is saying these things openly that means something is not correct. (There can not be smoke without fire).

He cannot say so without some proof. Otherwise MOD & IAF will be at his throat.

Till now nobody denied his story, be it IAF or MOD. Let the facts emerge.
As I said (and its nothing new) that IAF want RAFALEs in large numbers (nearly 100) and its also quite clear that IAF is unhappy with LM F-16s for some valid reasons.
Hence, they are trying blackmail MoD with LCA Tejas to get more RAFALEs which is quite easier to get as DRAL promised to deliver MII Rafales from 2021 end (if we placed more orders now), which can make both parties (GoI and IAF) happy.
This was all that smoke which is now baked by our classic journos for their exclusive breakings.

It's also quite bitter that LM can find its way to IAF because they have geo-political advantage..

[Speculation]
To get rid off all the this mess , MoD wants to cancel the SE tender because nobody will question us for the cancellation if we go for indigenous LCA for compensated SE jet.
 

Kshithij

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Infact you are correct.

It is the demand of Rafale, hence this arm twisting is all about.

No my point is, if he is saying these things openly that means something is not correct. (There can not be smoke without fire).

He cannot say so without some proof. Otherwise MOD & IAF will be at his throat.

Till now nobody denied his story, be it IAF or MOD. Let the facts emerge.
That is the point - they want IAF and MoD to divulge the secret details. Hitjobs on the media changes nothing as MoD doesn't look at media to buy planes.
 

Bhoot Pishach

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As I said (and its nothing new) that IAF want RAFALEs in large numbers (nearly 100) and its also quite clear that IAF is unhappy with LM F-16s for some valid reasons.
Hence, they are trying blackmail MoD with LCA Tejas to get more RAFALEs which is quite easier to get as DRAL promised to deliver MII Rafales from 2021 end (if we placed more orders now), which can make both parties (GoI and IAF) happy.
This was all that smoke which is now baked by our classic journos for their exclusive breakings.

It's also quite bitter that LM can find its way to IAF because they have geo-political advantage..

[Speculation]
To get rid off all the this mess , MoD wants to cancel the SE tender because nobody will question us for the cancellation if we go for indigenous LCA for compensated SE jet.
Read the Hit Job, it says Doval has put his feet down on the SEF fiasco. And GOI has already made it clear that Rafale is expensive, cannot afford it in numbers.

Btw how much GOI paid for Rafale till now, I think delivery of the Rafale to start from 2019??? (this is the clue).
 

indiatester

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That is the point - they want IAF and MoD to divulge the secret details. Hitjobs on the media changes nothing as MoD doesn't look at media to buy planes.
May be not in this administration, but during the previous ones, the IAF got 2 additional squadrons of Su's due to the media attack of losing squadrons.
 

TPFscopes

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Read the Hit Job, it says Doval has put his feet down on the SEF fiasco. And GOI has already made it clear that Rafale is expensive, cannot afford it in numbers.

Btw how much GOI paid for Rafale till now, I think delivery of the Rafale to start from 2019??? (this is the clue).
In between MII Rafales will be considerably cheaper than imported Rafales because here we will pay them in INR (to DRAL) and the cost of imported Rafales was already shared on Rafale's thread. Anyways, the flyaway cost of single seater Rafale costs around 91 Million USD and two seater variant costs around 94 Million USD (for imported).
 

Bhoot Pishach

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In between MII Rafales will be considerably cheaper than imported Rafales because here we will pay them in INR (to DRAL) and the cost of imported Rafales was already shared on Rafale's thread. Anyways, the flyaway cost of single seater Rafale costs around 91 Million USD and two seater variant costs around 94 Million USD (for imported).
Sirji MII Rafale is already down the drain. Where is the Guarantee or the Certification from the Dassault for MII Rafale. And what will be the TOT, Know How, Know Why, trf to India????

(Are you saying that they going to take the Guarantee of Chhota Bhai's MII who never manufactured even a SCREW???)

It's serious no go area for GOI.

P.S.: How you arrived at the figures of $91M ~ $94M, kindly inform about the same in detail.
 

Kshithij

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In between MII Rafales will be considerably cheaper than imported Rafales because here we will pay them in INR (to DRAL) and the cost of imported Rafales was already shared on Rafale's thread. Anyways, the flyaway cost of single seater Rafale costs around 91 Million USD and two seater variant costs around 94 Million USD (for imported).
The first 36 rafales are to be completed only in 2022-23. starting in 2019. So, if 108 more orders are made, it will simply extend timeleines to 2027-2028, even taking into account the capital investment initially and increased production to 20-24 a year. Rafale in France is made at 30 per year as of now and hence the numbers I gave for MII is reasonable range.

By 2025, Tejas MK2 will be rolling out. If more than another 108 Rafales are ordered, then surely, it will be wasteful. Rafale may only be strategically useful to replace MiG29 on the aircraft carrier Vikrant. This may entail 54 Rafales (60% operational comes to 32 which is the number of aircrafts carried by Vikrant). It may be obligatory on India to order more Rafales in return for Kaveri engine or other offsets but it is unlikeley to be cheaper. It would be better to satisfy the obligation by ordering 54 Naval Rafales for Vikrant, and rest with IAF planes.

Rafales are not fully MII as there are lot of imported items. Full ToT will not be given. Hence it is unlikely to be cheap. The timelines of Rafale is slow and hence it is more prudent to limit it and wait for Tejas MK2
 

Bhoot Pishach

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The first 36 rafales are to be completed only in 2022-23. starting in 2019. So, if 108 more orders are made, it will simply extend timeleines to 2027-2028, even taking into account the capital investment initially and increased production to 20-24 a year. Rafale in France is made at 30 per year as of now and hence the numbers I gave for MII is reasonable range.

By 2025, Tejas MK2 will be rolling out. If more than another 108 Rafales are ordered, then surely, it will be wasteful. Rafale may only be strategically useful to replace MiG29 on the aircraft carrier Vikrant. This may entail 54 Rafales (60% operational comes to 32 which is the number of aircrafts carried by Vikrant). It may be obligatory on India to order more Rafales in return for Kaveri engine or other offsets but it is unlikeley to be cheaper. It would be better to satisfy the obligation by ordering 54 Naval Rafales for Vikrant, and rest with IAF planes.

Rafales are not fully MII as there are lot of imported items. Full ToT will not be given. Hence it is unlikely to be cheap. The timelines of Rafale is slow and hence it is more prudent to limit it and wait for Tejas MK2
One Noob Question.

How Rafale is going to fit in the LIFTS of INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant???

& When Rafale got certified for STOBAR, and with what weapon load???
 

TPFscopes

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One Noob Question.

How Rafale is going to fit in the LIFTS of INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant???
Most probably, Dassault will be requested for wing folding which is not asked till now.
& When Rafale got certified for STOBAR, and with what weapon load???
They are not yet certified for that but both Boeing and Dassault will be invited to show off their STOBAR skill at SBTF,Goa.

@Kshithij
 

Bhoot Pishach

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Most probably, Dassault will be requested for wing folding which is not asked till now.
And who is going to pay for complete redesign of Wing component and certification of redesigned aircraft???

They are not yet certified for that but both Boeing and Dassault will be invited to show off their STOBAR skill at SBTF,Goa. @Kshithij
Let them do it. Good luck to them.
 

torque456

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I am a radical, I want Tejas. Buy rafales in as many numbers as required, they are definitely Superior to everything on the table. Lets build up numbers with Tejas and quality with rafale.

If geopolitical donations are required, let's not put our strategic assets on the line by getting involved with American MIC. Go for something which won't choke us when Uncle Sam isn't happy.

F16 will be like a leash on our neck. Gripen too is more or less an american product with much more complicated sourcing.

If we have survived these many years being non aligned, then we shouldn't give away our sovereignty like this at this stage when we would be a top dog in a couple of decades.
 

Gaurav Rai

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IAF Defends Single Engine Jet Contest, Strafes LCA Tejas: Report
Shiv AroorNov 11 2017 12 44 pm

There wasn’t a whiff of this one coming. And when India Today broke the story this week, it created more than just a flutter.

The newsbreak, televised Friday (video above) on India Today’s 5pm news show anchored by Livefist’s Shiv Aroor, tells of how the Indian Air Force has pronounced the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas a sub-optimal combat platform to ‘protect Indian skies’. The story by senior journalist Sudhi Ranjan Sen suggests the IAF’s words were in the form of a presentation to the Ministry of Defence to fight off a hitherto unknown government move to rethink a large impending campaign to build imported fighter jets in India and instead simply buy more LCA Tejas fighters.

The Make in India single engine fighter (SEF) is expected to be a face-off between Sweden’s Gripen E and the American F-16 Block 70 for a deal that involves the sale of at least 100 jets to the Indian Air Force off a new production line in India in partnership with the private ‘strategic partner’. Thirty-three years in development, the LCA Tejas entered tentative service with the IAF last year, with a total of 123 airframes on order to populate five squadrons. The India Today report suggests the Indian government is wondering why it needs to build foreign fighters in India if the LCA Tejas meets single engine fighter requirements. It is reportedly in response to these questions that the IAF has explicitly labelled the LCA Tejas an insufficient combat platform.

While the Indian Air Force and MoD haven’t officially reacted to the story, the suggestion that the MoD is even rethinking the SEF program is explosive. A Request for Information (RFI) on the contest was to have been sent out to Lockheed Martin and Saab by the end of September. That deadline, the IAF chief later declared, had then shifted to the end of October. With no RFI out yet, the India Today report has amplified questions over the delay.

The report is a perplexing one, given that the SEF program has been brandished as the spearhead of India’s Make in India thrust in the field of aerospace. Suggestions of a government rethink — or an effort to whittle down the scope of the SEF contest — would fly directly in the face of expansive discussions both prospective competitors — Lockheed Martin and Saab — have very visibly been holding with Indian industry under the aegis of the MoD’s ambitious Strategic Partnership policy.

The conflict, though, is an expected one and the India Today report perhaps reflects the multiple pressure points weighing on the government at this time. Consider the following:

  1. One of the first questions to justifiably erupt when the SEF contest was announced was why India needed imported light fighters when the LCA Tejas had turned the corner into squadron service and was on a path of steady improvement. Armed with the LCA’s performance data and timelines, HAL and the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) have understandably brought to bear a great deal of pressure on the government to reconsider the SEF. There are specific interests at play here, of course — the SEF won’t involve HAL as a license production house, so the latter has no skin in the new game. Within the LCA Tejas ecosystem, ironically, the ADA has nursed misgivings that HAL simply hasn’t ‘owned’ the LCA Tejas as it should.
  2. The SEF fighter deal may not have begun in earnest yet, but make no mistake about the enormous political capital that’s already been invested in it. The world’s largest defence firm has the explicit backing of the most unsubtle and unpredictable political force in Trump to keep the contest at the very least on track. That along makes the India Today report explosive, given that there have been no indications so far that the Indian government has doubts about whether to push ahead.
  3. Obviously, both Lockheed Martin and Saab see space for their aircraft in Indian inventory alongside the LCA Tejas. The IAF’s reported pronouncements on the LCA only support the argument from vendors that one platform doesn’t replace the other. Of course, both Lockheed Martin and Saab explicitly recognise that concluding a deal with India will necessarily have to mean technology channels to the LCA Tejas program and the proposed AMCA fifth generation fighter. The LCA program however believes performance improvements on the Mk.1A and the less and less likely LCA Mk.2 would narrow the gap considerably. The truth is, the IAF is stoutly unconvinced.
  4. The SEF is an ambitious program brandished as one to cure several of India’s aerospace ills at once — the lack of large aviation-building capacity in the private sector, the lack of leading edge technologies on par with the best in the world, crucial aerospace skilling to support a new paradigm in quality manufacturing, the first true harnessing of Indian Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 and small and medium enterprises (SMEs) in the global airframing business, and not least, quality employment with spill-over effects into other areas. It is these deeply ambitious goals that make the SEF program more than just a funnel to supply 100+ fighters to a customer grappling with squadron strength depletion. Critics of the program offer, on the other hand, that the energies and time spent on creating SEF capacity could well be channeled into improving the LCA program and accelerating the AMCA, additionally suggesting that improved LCA jets could populate squadrons faster than license built foreign jets off a greenfield Indian facility. It is into the IAF’s new pronouncements that these impulses have now smashed.
  5. It is difficult to ignore the inventory path the IAF is taking. With a pair of Rafale squadrons, over a hundred LCA Tejas jets and the prospective SEF jets inbound, we’re talking of three all new types in operational service. And this isn’t even considering more twin-engine jets the IAF could consider at a later time, in addition to fifth generation fighters. From an inventory perspective, the scenario plays out ominously: the subtraction of one type — all variants of the MiG-21, and the addition of at least three types. Here is the link to the article - https://www.livefistdefence.com/201...ine-jet-contest-strafes-lca-tejas-report.html
 

WolfPack86

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Let's give tejas production line to tata in order to save time and produce tejas faster. We must quickly develope tejas mk 2 before 2023. Indian govt should pour billion dollars in tejas development instead of spending in F-16 and Gripen.
 

patriots

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I hope this comes true otherwise bye bye to indigenous industry. Fuking rats everywhere. What the fk IAF thinks when it clearly knows Yanks not gonna give full ToT and Gripen-E is nowhere near to FOC. And promises from saab would be stalled by yanks if gripen gets go ahead. Who in his right mind would think without having indigenous capacity, during war we would have full support from makers. LCA and AMCA is answer to everything.

BC itna bada desh hai, itni population hai. Itna brain hai jo drain hoke ja raha ha bahar. Ek fighter jet itne saalo se bana nahi sakte. Shameful.
bro we had not invested in r&d of fighter jets.....we just imported.....imported

we invested in missile technology .now we have intercontinental ballastic missiles..we have ballastic shield s. we have our own bvraam ....

Tejas is the beginning. .......first time we have made something ....next time we will make the best .. .....

same case is with Arjun mbt

if we have to fight a war with Russia...then what will we do . we have only one weapon....it's Stone. .... Stone hurling is the only way .....

our tank is from Russia. our jet is from Russia. .....I am not wise enough to comment on iaf.. official s.......

sorry If I have typed anything wrong....
 

xeaaex

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I don't know what IAF is thinking i am not wise enough to judge them, but i know for sure; if we keep on importing our weapons we will lack in development of weapons, importing a system and developing similar system in parallel will just waste our resources (relatively).
I think in this regard China is far better than India because they tend to use maximum of there home grown products, and this is the very reason why China will be world military power because they will be self-sufficient in military technology and we will always end up buying foreign maal.

We need more investment in research and development.
Better local competition from private sector; hal has no rival so they will always try to slack off; competition makes market healthy.
Reducing the influence of foreign powers on our defence force,media and politicians.
 

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