IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

cannonfodder

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"Amdani athani kharcha rupayya" suna to hoga sirjee.

F-35 has ran to serious cost overruns and US cannot abandon this project after investing so much money on it. So they want to sell and decrease their own manufacturing cost. It is jack of all trades fighter. You r fanboy... nothing more.

Americans or other nation will give not away their ip easily(co-operation/support)...that is not in their benefit. This is junk post and hope MOD does not buys into another bullshit.

Sir, India can take US support / co-operation. US already offered it anyway. DFI already has thread on that topic.

In pmaitra 's post there is nothing new. We already talked about it many times in past.
But still you have doubts about F-35 project ....! Any reason....?
 

Zebra

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"Amdani athani kharcha rupayya" suna to hoga sirjee.
F-35 has ran to serious cost overruns and US cannot abandon this project after investing so much money on it. So they want to sell and decrease their own manufacturing cost. It is jack of all trades fighter.
Watch this at 8:35 onwards........


You r fanboy... nothing more.
Americans or other nation will give not away their ip easily (co-operation/support)...that is not in their benefit. This is junk post and hope MOD does not buys into another bullshit.
Ha Ha ,
GE already started their 3D printing plant in India.
PM of India invited them to start two more products in his opening ceremony speech itself, at the time of that 3D printing plant.
Any you cry for no "co-operation" now.....!
Sir, another a$$ burn or brain fart or both. I wonder.
 

cannonfodder

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lets agree to disagree. I believe in what @pmaitra posted.

This is will be bad move for India if it decides to buy this platform. No country is going to give high technology to India easily.(there is no free lunch). Business will come to only if they see value. Read the post carefully before posting, I am not saying don't co-operate with US or don't seek help from foreign enterprises. You are :crazy:..

Watch this at 8:35 onwards........




Ha Ha ,
GE already started their 3D printing plant in India.
PM of India invited them to start two more products in his opening ceremony speech itself, at the time of that 3D printing plant.
Any you cry for no "co-operation" now.....!
Sir, another a$$ burn or brain fart or both. I wonder.
 

pmaitra

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Sir, it is not a fresh start anyway........ :wink:
Ah, I don't go into Chit Chat Thread that much.

I like your present avatar better than the previous one. Please don't mind me saying this; the previous one was a sock puppet.
 

Zebra

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Ah, I don't go into Chit Chat Thread that much.

I like your present avatar better than the previous one. Please don't mind me saying this; the previous one was a sock puppet.
Sir, a nice song from a nice movie.................

 

Zebra

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lets agree to disagree. I believe in what @pmaitra posted.

This is will be bad move for India if it decides to buy this platform. No country is going to give high technology to India easily.(there is no free lunch). Business will come to only if they see value. Read the post carefully before posting, I am not saying don't co-operate with US or don't seek help from foreign enterprises. You are :crazy:..
Sir, you are not getting it, try the different way to get what you want.
Adopt the way which other US allies use.
And PM Modi knows that way very well.
 

bennedose

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No. No F-35 for India.From the article above - which has too much useless information. let me first post the useless information that can be ignored:

The F-35 is designed as an ‘affordable stealth’ air dominance fighterThe F-35 is designed as an ‘affordable stealth’ air dominance fighter
-rubbish

Lockheed Martin has designed and built a fighter that has blown through the boundaries of imagination.
-cheap rhetoric

it has to undergo fifty six thousand separate tests
- so what?

It comprises of more than 24 million lines of code mainly written in C and C++
- big deal


The F-35 Lockheed Martin fighter aircraft has recently surpassed 15,000 cumulative hours of flying marking a major milestone for the program.
- big deal. Another statistic that means nothing for India.


India is a strong democratic country which will play a crucial role in the near future since it occupies an all-important Geo-strategic location between China and the Middle East. The emergence of India as a blue water naval power needs to be accredited and bucked up by the Americans as a powerful ally who will play a crucial role in the Persian Gulf shipping corridor.
Nonsense. America does things only with a quid pro quo provided it benefits the US. Its role vis a vis India has been pathetic. First stop giving Pakistan F-16s and AMRAAM and then selling F-35 to India to make money from both


the F-35 is a truly global program consisting of international partners ensuring interoperability not only with the three US services but also with other participating countries.
"Global" clearly does not include India. In a crunch there will be sanctions. India has slobbered after C-130 from 1962. Guess when we finally got them? In the meantime guess what the Pakis got?

Another prime drawback is our passiveness and lethargy to absorb technology. It is also evident now that HAL will not be associated in the co-development or co-design of FGFA and in the end would be just involved in the customization process similar to their involvement in the Su-30MKI project. We have to bear in mind the Russians have progressed briskly on the PAK-FA project for any meaningful technological sharing that HAL can now hope.
The F-35 is not going to change any of this so the point being made is totally meaningless.

Cutting a lot of unnecessary words from the excessively verbose rhetorical article I get some useful info:

The F-35’s internal weapon bay gives it the ability to carry larger bombs and missiles, but the price is that F-35s can carry just 2 internal air-to-air weapons, instead of a maximum of 8 in the F-22A. As table above shows, development, testing, and software issues have also combined to give initial F-35 fleets a very narrow set of weapons
- 138 million US$ per plane for this?
 

Yumdoot

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F-35 reminds me of this:

Fairey Battle


Probably the most stupid design ever.

Let us see if in future F-35 beats that.
 

SafedSagar

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IDAN is nothing but a bunch of 15 year old fanboys. Don't take their articles seriously.
 

bengalraider

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Only way buying the F35 even remotely makes sense for India and the other NATO allies as well is if the cost is reduced drastically. We can have a win win situation here if the Americans agree to assemble the aircraft in India. Say in a Jointly owned LM-TATA facility. The vastly reduced Labor costs in India would lower the costs to the 80-85$ mil mentioned while also letting many of our front-line engineers imbibe some global best practices.
Buying the aircraft as it is (assembled in the U.S) does not make sense.
We would have to make some compromises but the Americans would have to make some as well.
 

blueblood

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@pmaitra , F-35 is in bad shape and unsuitable for India in its present condition but by no means will remain so forever. US is spending way too much time and money to make sure that it doesn't happen.

  • F-35 will eventually iron out some of its major problems.
  • It'll never be the golden bullet US wants it to be.
  • F-35 as MMRCA is a big no-no.
  • Future of F-35 in India will depend on the development of Indian programs like TejasMk2, FGFA, AMCA.
  • By the time IN will be looking for a NMMRCA for INS Vishal, it'll be significantly cheaper than it is now.
F-35 is a perfect example of too many cooks spoil the broth. I'll try to find the interview of F-117 designer and his opinions on the F-35 program.

As for the Chinese radar, it is an old wine in a new bottle. West examined the concept and moved away from it. Speaks volumes of its feasibility.
 

Zebra

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@pmaitra , F-35 is in bad shape and unsuitable for India in its present condition but by no means will remain so forever. US is spending way too much time and money to make sure that it doesn't happen.
  • F-35 will eventually iron out some of its major problems.
  • It'll never be the golden bullet US wants it to be.
  • F-35 as MMRCA is a big no-no.
  • Future of F-35 in India will depend on the development of Indian programs like TejasMk2, FGFA, AMCA.
  • By the time IN will be looking for a NMMRCA for INS Vishal, it'll be significantly cheaper than it is now.
F-35 is a perfect example of too many cooks spoil the broth. I'll try to find the interview of F-117 designer and his opinions on the F-35 program.
this one........................... -->

 

blueblood

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No, not him. Sprey is a senile old man, still pissed at what F-16 turned out to be.
 

prohumanity

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With limited budget, why should India invest in F-35...a very expensive fighter...and..without technology transfer...the risk of being spare parts and tech parts..being blocked by producing country to protect the "most allied Non-Nato partner" .....A gun is only good when you own it with no strings attached and with full supply of bullets without any conditions.
To me, jointly produced, FGFA (PAKFa) is a more sensible choice ...less expensive..more dependable in event of war with Paki.
 

Zebra

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With limited budget, why should India invest in F-35...a very expensive fighter...and..without technology transfer...the risk of being spare parts and tech parts..being blocked by producing country to protect the "most allied Non-Nato partner" .....A gun is only good when you own it with no strings attached and with full supply of bullets without any conditions.
To me, jointly produced, FGFA (PAKFa) is a more sensible choice ...less expensive..more dependable in event of war with Paki.
:pound:

Sir, your Paki is on Russian side now.

And chances are there Paki gonna get declared as "hostile nation" soon.
Have a look.........
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...invite-to-Washington/articleshow/48590667.cms

So let's move on now.
 

manutdfan

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http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/08/idn-take-why-india-should-buy-f-35.html

IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

Thursday, August 20, 2015 by Indiandefense News

INTRODUCTION
The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II is a family of single-seat, single-engine, all-weather stealth multirole fighters undergoing final development and testing by the United States. The F-35 Lightning II, the world's most advanced multi-role fighter is virtually a flying computer, which is a combination of a stealth bomber and a fighter jet and it promises to be the most effective fighter aircraft in decades to come. The F-35 will be a valuable asset to any air force in its arsenal, it will also be a viable proposition in the long-run when compared to any other aircraft in the next decade or more as it is now become an unstoppable proposition. Lockheed Martin has designed and built a fighter that has blown through the boundaries of imagination.

KEY FEATURES

STEALTH: The F-35 is designed as an ‘affordable stealth’ air dominance fighter. It has exceptional abilities as a fifth generation fighter which features radar evading all aspect stealth capability, supersonic speed and extreme agility, network-enabled operations, advanced sustainment, combined with air-to-air and air-to-ground combat potential, unmatched air dominance air combat roles with the most powerful and comprehensive integrated sensor package of any fighter aircraft in history. The sensors and communications systems enable pilots to share information securely with forces at sea, in the air or on the ground for more cohesive operations. The F-35 is a fifth generation technologically sophisticated single seat, single engine aircraft, but unlike its predecessor the F-22A Raptor, it has the capability to perform additional functions such as reconnaissance, air defense missions along with similar tasks like ground attack, interdiction and tactical strikes, electronic warfare, and signals intelligence roles.

SENSORS: The F-35 is equipped with an advanced APG-81 AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) Radar strong AESA advantages of simultaneous air-air and air-ground capabilities, major maintenance & availability improvements, and secure, high-bandwidth communications benefits. The F-35 also shares a “sensor fusion” design, based on an even more extensive sensor set embedded all around the airframe. F-35 has a superior infrared and ground-looking sensors.

Rockwell Collins F-35 Helmet-Mounted Display System
These sensors are connected to a lot of computing power, in order to create single-picture view that lets the pilot see everything on one big 20 inch LCD screen. As part of that sensor fusion, the F-35 will be the first plane is several decades to fly without a heads-up display. Instead, pilots will wear Elbit/Rockwell’s Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) helmet or BAE’s Helmet-Mounted Symbology System (HMSS), and have all of that information projected wherever they look. JHMCS is both a strength that adds new capabilities, like the ability to look “through” the plane’s floor, and a single point-of-failure weakness.

Pratt & Whitney F135 Engine on a Testbed


ENGINE: The F-35 was set to offer interchangeable engine options. That has been an important feature for global F-16 and F-15 customers, improving costs and performance. The Pratt & Whitney F135 powers the F-35. An alternative engine, the General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136, was being developed until it was cancelled by its manufacturers. Neither the F135 or F136 engines are designed for supercruise, the F-35 can achieve a limited supercruise of Mach 1.2 for 150 miles. The F135 is the second stealthy afterburning jet engine. Like the Pratt & Whitney F119 from which it was derived, the F135 has suffered afterburner pressure pulsations, or 'screech' at low altitude and high speed. The F-35 has a max speed of over Mach 1.6. With a max takeoff weight of 60,000 lb (27,000 kg),the Lightning II is considerably heavier than the lightweight fighters it replaces.



WEAPONS: The fighter employs several cutting-edge but uncharted technologies hence it has to undergo fifty six thousand separate tests everything from making sure a bomb will fall out of the concealed bay to seeing what happens when dropped at supersonic speeds.The F-35’s internal weapon bay gives it the ability to carry larger bombs and missiles, but the price is that F-35s can carry just 2 internal air-to-air weapons, instead of a maximum of 8 in the F-22A. As table above shows, development, testing, and software issues have also combined to give initial F-35 fleets a very narrow set of weapons. Indeed, the initial operational set that comes with Block III software has about the same weapon options as the single-role F-22A.

SOFTWARE POWER: The F-35 is laden with advanced software which runs into millions of lines code, to assist the pilot in all spheres of operations ably assisted with sophisticated avionics hardware. It comprises of more than 24 million lines of code mainly written in C and C++ and also uses ADA programming language incidentally the same language which is used in the Flight Control System of LCA Tejas. As in any complex cutting-edge software-technology development, the program has faced some production and implementation setbacks. As per the 2013 Annual Report of the Pentagon’s Director of Operational Test and Evaluation (DOT'&'E) the F-35’s software development is falling behind schedule, and beginning to seriously threaten the Marine Corps and Air Force plans to declare “initial operational capability” in 2015 and 2016 respectively.

The F-35 runs on DO-178B securely partitioned, safety-critical, certified real-time operating system (RTOS).

The F-35 is also equipped with Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), which determines whether the plane is safe to fly or not.

The F-35 “power-by-wire” system represents advancement on the more electric aircraft topology integrating:

>>Self-contained electro-hydrostatic (EHA) actuators to position primary flight surfaces
>>Electronic Control Units to remotely drive and control the EHAs
>>Electrically driven Power-Driven-Units (PDU) to position the maneuvering leading edge flaps


The F-35 Lockheed Martin fighter aircraft has recently surpassed 15,000 cumulative hours of flying marking a major milestone for the program. “Flying 15,000 hours itself demonstrates that the program is maturing, but what I think is even more impressive is the fact that operational F-35 accounted for more than half of those flight hours,” said J.D. McFarlan, Lockheed Martin Vice President for F-35 Test and Verification.
F-35 VARIANTS AND COST STRUCTURE


F-35 BF-03 Short Take Off Vertical Landing Version

The F-35 is a tri-variant family, the F-35A is a conventional take off and landing aircraft (CTOL), the F-35B is a short take-off and vertical-landing variant (STVOL), and the F-35C is a carrier-based variant (CV). However, there have been allegations of considerable delays in its development cycles, prohibitive cost and time escalations and several technological complexities such as compromised "extreme plus agility" that are yet to be resolved. There are arguments against the fighter that the use of stealth technology has increasingly offset the F-35's payload capacity and range and the stealth technology in and of itself and would negate its primary role as a stealth aircraft with advances in Radar and Infrared detection technologies.



There have been also many wild speculations about F-35’s price tag since it is the world’s most expensive military weapons program. Lockheed Martin now projects that if production ramps up, the fighter will match the cost of a current F-16 in inflation-adjusted dollars. It also claims that the unit cost expected for the F-35A is around $85 million in 2019 (which would be far cheaper than Dassault Rafale). However, the Senate Armed Services Committees and the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) estimated the total unit cost for the cheapest version, which is the F-35A, is around $172.7 million per aircraft, certainly a dreadful factor for all concerned.

ANALYSIS



Now that we have learnt a little about the F-35, let us explore how we can accommodate and integrate this amazing state-of-the-art fighter into the Indian Air Force (IAF). Traditionally, India has always opted for Russian military hardware especially when it comes to fighter jets and the only deviancy made has been acquiring the French Mirage-2000 and the Anglo/French SEPECAT Jaguar. Over the decades, the Indo-Russo diplomatic relationship has stood the test of time particularly well even after the fall of the Soviet Union except on a few contentious issues.

COUNTER ARGUMENT

Several Indian critics have argued that the F-35 is not an ideal choice for India based on the following contentions:

Firstly we already have an ongoing program with the Russians to develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA)

Secondly the F-35 is still in developmental phase and yet to see the production floor

Thirdly is its prohibitive cost of ownership and

Finally, and the lamest of the lot is that India will not gain any industrial or technological accruals since there will be no licence production involved. (Disputation based on an article published by Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses)

Let us examine each point in detail:

Firstly, if we go ahead with the FGFA proposal as envisaged, we have to factor in the perceivable cost escalations due to inordinate delays mainly owing to our notorious bureaucratic processes, red tape impediments, dithery, inept and callous decision makers and Russia's reluctance to transfer crucial technologies. Our relationship with the Russians is also patchy these days now that the pugilistic fervors is more pronounced and sporadic. Russia is also looking at Pakistan as a steadfast defence partner.

The serviceability of the Su-30MKI front line fighter has been affected due to the lack of repair and overhaul facilities that Russia had agreed to set up but has not done so far. There has also been incessant negative reporting by the media, which claims that Russia is not fulfilling its obligations under the FGFA program.

Another prime drawback is our passiveness and lethargy to absorb technology. It is also evident now that HAL will not be associated in the co-development or co-design of FGFA and in the end would be just involved in the customization process similar to their involvement in the Su-30MKI project. We have to bear in mind the Russians have progressed briskly on the PAK-FA project for any meaningful technological sharing that HAL can now hope. As per latest estimates, the FGFA project will finally cost both India and Russia $12 billion with India bearing half of it, and as per Lockheed, the F-35A will cost around $85 million or less in 2019. Assuming it stays around the $75 to $80 million mark per aircraft during 2019, India can then purchase around 80- 85 fighters out of India’s share of $6 billion for the FGFA project. Therefore, I presume, going forward we stand to gain nothing commercially or politically out of this partnership except earn the goodwill of the Russians. Eventually the final cost of FGFA project will match or even exceed the purchase cost of the F-35A but with this proviso that the US government subsidizes the purchase as the cost levels would be way beyond our fiscal reach.

Secondly, despite what detractors say the F-35 program is very much on track since it has completed several extended, rigorous and complicated tests, set major milestones, progressively validated respective performance parameters, delivered more than 100 jets to various users that include the first five international deliveries. Recently, South Korea has selected to buy F-35 CTOL variant as its next-generation fighter, South Korea becomes the third foreign customer to buy the F-35, joining Israel and Japan. The fighter is flying on a daily basis verifying aerodynamics and mission performances, fixing software bugs, performing protracted mid-air refueling exercises, conducting night flights, live fire and targeted weapons testing, carrier trials and VSTOL performance testing.

Thirdly, the F-35 is a truly global program consisting of international partners ensuring interoperability not only with the three US services but also with other participating countries. The production involves leading international aerospace companies like Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Pratt '&' Whitney and BAE Systems. Lockheed Martin is the principal contractor. The program provides significant job opportunities for both the domestic and international entities and it promotes industrial competitiveness and provides substantial technology benefits. Suppliers in all the partner countries are producing F-35 components for all the three variants.

The global nature of the program results in significant cost savings, the cost of the F-35 will be comparably low once economies of scale sets in since the Pentagon has committed to buy more than 2,400 fighters. Moreover, there has been undue delays in the procurement of Rafale which has escalated costs exponentially, and as per agency reports the defense ministry had envisaged a budget of about Rs. 42,000 crore in 2007 for buying 126 fighter aircraft. But (hold your breath here) the cost in 2014 could go up as high as Rs 100,000 crore, with each Rafale costing about Rs 590 crore. This means the Government will have to find additional funds since the defense budget has seen only a modest growth of 5 per cent each year.


Building the F-35’s at Lockheed Martin Corporation

Lastly, the argument that India does not achieve any industrial or technological benefits by purchasing the F-35 is a daub. To controvert this justification, we have to retrospect to the so-called technology transfer programs that HAL is involved with the various foreign defense partners over the past few decades. It is evident that nothing significant has accrued out of this arrangement either by HAL or by other defense agencies. Some of the significant Transfer of Technology/Licence Production/ Joint Ventures platforms is the SEPECAT Jaguar, Mig-29, Sukhoi-30MKI and the Mirage-2000. Despite several decades of manufacturing these fighter jets in India, we have not been able to leverage the surmisable knowledge and experience thence gained. The LCA-Tejas has taken close to two decades to evolve as a credible fighting system and it is still limping toward its crucial Final Operational Clearance (FOC), the lumbering KAVERI engine development has also not accomplished its objectives, and let us not forget the IJT-SITARA/NAL SARAS/HTT-40 fiascoes also in the bargain.

Since off late “Offset” provisioning has become a de jure part of the defense procurement policy constituted by Ministry of Defense, although some dilution has already been initiated by the government, a detailed analysis is required to assert the extend of leverage it lends to the overseas vendors. Therefore, it becomes imperative to understand what a TOT arrangement is as against an Offset obligation. Offset obligates the arms seller to reinvest arms sales proceeds in the purchasing country. Transfer of Technology on the other hand is assignment of technological intellectual property, developed and generated in one entity, to another through legal means such as technology licensing or franchising. Hence, in general, the difference in scope is insignificant between these agreements and regretfully none of our defense agencies has gained any substantial strategic advantage or exploited the opportunity to absorb technologies, as notably China has been able to achieve in the past few decades.

LCA TEJAS EMBROILMENT: The Tejas will not see active service for a minimum of seven years or more and the FGFA for well over a decade, given the pace at which the negotiations are heading, additionally the MMRCA deal with Dassault is also going through an unpredictable tumble. In the interim, the F-35 can provide total air dominance '&' superiority over our airspace as a stopgap arrangement, the F-35 can thus smoothly transition as a substitute for Rafale by following a similar delivery schedule as defined in the MMRCA deal. Buying the F-35’s outright from Lockheed Martin Corporation with no preconditions from them will enable the government to eschew the myriad and cockeyed offset regulations and other related contractual obligations attached to such a deal and it is also apparent foreign investors are rather dicey about it. Shedding the mental apartheid perceptibly demonstrated by our politicians, bureaucrats, analysts and writers especially when it comes to having any defense dealings with the Americans would not only have considerable and tangible benefits for IAF but also for the other armed services as well.

EXIGENCY PLANS

Hence, the most suited and prudent course of action the government should undertake is:

1. Scrap the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal in its entirety (This is a tough call since France has stood by India during tough times). Thankfully, this has since been achieved.
2. Scrap the nascent FGFA program before it becomes a typical public sector nightmare, though the PAK-FA on which it will be generically based on by itself is a highly advanced, extremely agile and low observable signature aircraft with surprisingly superior capabilities.
3. Buying the F-35 will bring cutting-edge technology to the battlefield" as IAF's "backbone" for 50 years. It will clearly be the most survivable tactical aircraft we've ever fielded. Therefore, an outright purchase should be planned with all other conditions included except Offset obligation.
4. Promote and optimize AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft) as an indigenous alternative to FGFA, strive to exceed or at best match or assimilate the technical and tactical superiority benchmarks of F-35/PAK-FA by providing sizable funds, infrastructure, human resources, and government administrative support. This approach is absolutely necessary for our military goals.
5. Elevate the Tejas program as an exigent National Security initiative, augment further funding, human resources, infrastructure, and accord unconditional organisational support. Strive to realign Tejas as a deputized MMRCA.
6. Formulate exhaustive and unconditional contract control policies (US government & Lockheed Martin are bound to comply since the aircraft has gone over budget, a block of around 100 aircraft will send good cheer to the program) before embarking on the purchase of F-35’s thus obviating future commercial, technical and logistical conundrums such as total immunity assurance against impromptu sanctions, establishment of spare parts bank, price protection stipulation based on "complete-full-package" deal to ensure the projected price includes the aircraft, avionics, mission systems, and the engine, optimal maintenance training procedures, access to software codes, coalesce comprehensive risks mitigation policy to address risks identification, planning, analysis, management, monitoring and control methodologies etc.,
7. Mitigate conflict between probity and speed in defense equipment acquisitions
8. Lastly, India urgently needs to reform its armed forces reporting structure and should adapt the US model of having a Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff and a subset of theater commanders as the nature of future wars imposes the need for an overall commander to formulate strategies and coordinate overall military operations. This structure will largely help in preventing corruption, cronyism, nepotism, indiscipline and inefficiency.


CONCLUSION

Finally, if India goes ahead with the F-35A plucky deal it will be assuredly a winning proposition on all fronts and it will be foolhardy if it does not. The F-35 will have a future. The F-35 would be an essential component to any future conflict with an adversary. High-intensity combat against a peer competitor opponent, or into the teeth of an advanced anti-access/area denial system, may not occur within the lifetime of the airframe. But if the opportunity comes to demonstrate the F-35’s quality, the result could very well be magnificent.

The limited purchase of 70 to 80 aircraft on account of fiscal prudence or constraints would sacrifice force structure but it will however deepen India's strategic depth, act as a force multiplier, effectively meet the aggressive operational challenges because of its technological lead over existing stealth fighter programs in and around the Indian subcontinent. It is important to note that both Russia and France have been strong allies of India in the past and our relationship goes well beyond mere immediate lolly. The tough measures quoted above are the dire need to strengthen India's future as a bulwark of current and future international multipolar political order.

Washington for many Indians cannot be trusted and it is in America’s interest to backpedal the waning diffidence that this Obama administration has tardily percolated, especially if it wants to project India as a containment component to China. China is going gung ho over the South China Sea region. It has also been belligerent in the recent past especially condoning the North Korean regime by providing them with weapons and sensitive technology, it has been an overt proliferator of nuclear weapons and technology, especially to India and America’s immediate adversaries Pakistan, Syria and Iran. China has been browbeating, grandstanding, posturing and blustering its neighbors including India in the recent past.

India is a strong democratic country which will play a crucial role in the near future since it occupies an all-important Geo-strategic location between China and the Middle East. The emergence of India as a blue water naval power needs to be accredited and bucked up by the Americans as a powerful ally who will play a crucial role in the Persian Gulf shipping corridor. India’s enunciation of Russian action in Crimea despite its unwarranted belligerence should be a grim reminder to America that it will not play ball unless it is treated on par with its other NATO allies and cannot be treated just as a ephemeral mollifying adornment. How the US aligns itself from here on (since a strong and stable government is in place now under the mollifying stewardship of Narendra Modi) would have enormous ramifications for these two democratic superpowers for the future. Strengthening bilateral and military relationships between the two superpowers will provide ample room for a stable and strong global order.

(This article has been adapted from one of IDN's associated blog)

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No matter how detailed an article is it doesn't hide the fact that the F-35 is useless. It's just one big expensive sensor that's too bloated and poorly designed to dogfight. Remember that the original project was called JSF as in Joint Strike Fighter. Emphasis on the word STRIKE. Like the F-15E Strike Eagle and the Su-34 Fullback it's primary task is air interdiction and hence possesses average air combat capabilities. Apparently recent reports show that it's even not that effective as a strike fighter due to inadequate range and payload. So there you go- A trillion dollar bomb truck that sucks at even it's most basic job.

And seriously the so called technological benefits to India's industrial base would be next to zero because quite simply the Americans don't share. American fighters are maintained exclusively by American contractors and once you tamper with even so much as a nut or a bolt warranty's void which means you have to pay extra. They have even denied access to the F-35 avionics source codes to their closest allies the Brits, Israelis & Japs. What makes you think they would give it to us?
Any banana republic can design a fighter, BVR missiles and with some effort and lots of money even a decent AESA radar. But what any banana republic cannot do is design an engine. Fighter jet engine technology is probably the most exclusive piece of technology on earth. Even more exclusive than nuclear technology. There are about a dozen plus nations that can produce a nuclear weapon but there are only 4 countries on earth who can design and produce a state-of-the-art fighter engine- USA, Russia, Britain & France. And India is simply pathetic when it comes to engines. LCA Tejas like our first indigenous fighter HF-24 Marut is plagued by the same engine problems and unless the Kaveri engine is sorted out the AMCA program is doomed too. And it is in this context that I find the technological benefit from F-35 argument utterly pointless.
Since Independence India has successfully operated even locally produced a number of Russian and European fighters such as MiG-21, MiG-27, Folland Gnat, SEPECAT Jaguars and most recently Su-30MKI.
Even after 6 decades when we haven't been able to produce an original engine or an improvement on a foreign-origin design much less a carbon copy what makes you think we can do that now especially from the technology obtained from the 'cloak n dagger' Americans?
India produced close to 700 MiG-21 in a number of variants over 20 years.
How come HAL never cloned it or tried to improve upon it even the slightest? Truth be told had HAL & DRDO been successful at producing quality spares and engines MiG-21s would still have been the pride of our air force and not been labeled as flying coffins.
Just look at how successful the Chinese have been with their double delta winged Chengdu J-7 copies. Not only is it safer and more reliable compared to the MiG-21 but also has more transonic maneuverability and agility with only a marginal tradeoff in top speed and rate of climb. Not only did they successfully reverse engineer the MiG-21 inch for inch they gradually improved it by further refining the design and using modern manufacturing tools, equipment & materials. The PLAAF and PAF were so highly satisfied with this project that it has now evolved into the Chengdu JF-17 which is the ultimate evolution of the MiG-21 and now has been in PAF service since 2010. Don't expect to see HAL Tejas reach full operational capability before 2020.
My point is- if we could not clone , not to mention barely improve, something as simple as a baseline variant MiG-21 where on earth is the GUARANTEE that buying the F-35 would give the so called 'huge fillip' to Indian technological and manufacturing base?
Weakness in engine technology isn't just limited to aviation it extends to our automobile sector as well. Bajaj, Hero, Royal Enfield, TVS, Mahindra, Tata you name it, their engines are of the poorest quality in the world. At least being private entities they are making a conscious effort to become better even if it means blatantly ripping off foreign technology.

Also stealth and BVR is way too overrated. People think that it would enable us to kill an enemy fighter at 100-200km range without ever being visible to the enemy. In reality, at most you can score BVR kills in the 40-50km range. Why are Western air forces so scared of dogfights? Scared of getting cut little girl? Vietnam forced them to completely reevaluate their air combat doctrine and produce the spectacular Teen series fighters. But after beating the pathetic and hapless little Iraqi Air Force in the Gulf Wars they are back to their stupid pre-Vietnam era mentality again that caused these problems in the very first place. Let me point out why this dreamy Star-Wars scenario of future combat is simply not possible:
1) at the end of the day the so called enemy fighter is just a tiny dot on the radar screen. Even if you pick up an enemy contact at 300-400km odd range considering that you are pointing in the correct direction in the very first place what is the guarantee that it isn't just an innocent windmill?
The Israeli Air Force to this date insists on visual confirmation before engaging the enemy. Also you would find it surprising that most of the Israeli F-15s kills were WVR kills and unlike the US versions their Baz versions are much lighter so as to increase dogfight capability, have a slightly downgraded radar with only A2A mode and also forgo a lot of the fancy gadgetry. Basically they have a stripped to the bone hotrod and they still whooped every Arabs' ass.
2) rule of thumb- bigger the radar, more the number of targets that can be detected and longer the range at which they can be detected. Physically the Su-30MKI is a much bigger aircraft compared to the F-35 and therefore comparatively has a much bigger nose that can accommodate a bigger radar. So how's it possible that the F-35 with only front aspect stealth can detect a Su-30 at a longer range and that too before the Su-30's highly capable PESA radar which might not have a very agile scanning beam but is still a very powerful radar nonetheless? At best the F-35s front aspect stealth would negate the Su-30's bigger and more powerful radar to a point where both can simultaneously launch BVR missiles at the other but definitely not before the Su-30 while remaining hidden. When the Su-30MKI gets, and they will certainly in the near future, an AESA radar then it's simply game over for the F-35! The F-35 isn't invisible to radar it's just that it appears smaller than normal on radar which will surely be countered by rival forces as the technology to do so matures in the coming decades.
3) Stealth is actually a relatively old technology think 1970s as a matter of fact not some 21st century wonder tech. People tend to forget that there's a entire field of study devoted to counter/anti stealth as well. Russia where stealth technology originated is also the forerunner in counter stealth. Already OTH radars have been introduced by Russia which can detect stealth fighters. If stealth is such an invincible technology then somebody please tell me as to how a technologically inferior enemy shot down the supposedly invisible F-117 that too with a 60s era missile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_F-117A_shootdown)? As counter stealth technology matures in the near future and stealth fighters lose their cloak of so called invisibility where would you rather be- a sensor-bombtruck platform/F-35 or a super-maneuverable hotrod/PAK FA with semi-stealth features but not at the expense of dogfight capabilities?
4) Last but not least and maybe the most important of all is pilot skills, training, tactics/strategy and air combat doctrine. Why do people always assume that the moment you launch a missile it would always be a hit? Historically A2A missiles have a success ratio of hardly 10%. Even with all the modern technology i would expect this ratio to hardly exceed 25-30% . Reason- a missile is just a pre-programmed rocket most probably in C+, with a homing device and limited fuel that can always be jammed or outmaneuvered; whereas the guy in the jet has a brain that with sufficient training can out-think/analyse @speed of light/innovate on the go/play chicken and can never ever be jammed.
With technology evolving rapidly so does the training methodology and combat doctrine. Also people forget that not only are pilots trained to fire missiles they are also trained to evade them and this training has been part of their curriculum since the advent of missiles. Pilot training like technology is not static and through the decades has been continuously evolving to counter ever emerging threats.
Like counter stealth ECM is also an often overlooked but nonetheless critical component of aerial warfare. Russians have typically insisted on strong ECM and defensive measures to make up for their weaknesses in current gen avionics and therefore in this field too they are the leaders. If you have a strong jamming suite coupled to a long range IRST/OLS (here too Russians are vastly superior) Western radars and missiles are practically useless while at the same time they becoming sitting ducks for Russian missiles which are always launched in pairs of heat seeking and semi/fully-active radar homing warheads.

Finally there are also the delicate geo-political considerations to be made. Now if India does go ahead and inducts F-35 as it's mainstay fighter thereby becoming an unwilling American ally while simultaneously canceling the FGFA program who's to say that Russia won't turn to Pakistan as payback?
Imagine a Pakistan armed by Russia and China. There's already been plenty of talk of the Su-35 SuperFlanker being exported to Pakistan. A Russia-China-Pakistan nuclear nexus would be India's worst Armageddon nightmare come true. Just imagine Pakistan being armed to the tip with Su-35, T-50 PAK FA, J-11, J-20, J-31 fighters not to mention nuclear weapons, ICBMs and nuclear submarines.

Conversely the Americans are unlikely to sell the F-35 to Pakistan at least not until 2030 and that too in small quantities; quite simply because Pakistan cannot afford it till then and not until India has acquired superior or similar capability to maintain parity. And the US will definitely not transfer any strategic nuclear weapons and launch platforms or provide any technical assistance of any sort at least directly unlike Russia and China who have much lesser reservations in this regard.

Apparently there's not much the USA can do against a Russia/China combine as seen in Korea, Vietnam, Iran and now Syria. In fact, the only thing holding back the Shanghai Cooperation Organization from turning into a full fledged military alliance are the supposedly close strategic and defense ties b/w India & Russia. Frankly for India, a pissed off Obama is much better than a pissed of Putin on any given day mainly due to Russia's close geographical proximity to both Pakistan & China and their similar style of autocratic governments. India and US being tolerant democracies can always sort out things through diplomacy but the same cannot be said for Russia and China.

My take on all those good folks who are obsessed with India buying the F-35 is:
1) to simply forget it. It's capabilities are simply not worth the money. The money is better off being sunk into the Kaveri engine. It's the engine that's the main bone of contention b/w DRDO and IAF. Just make a proper engine and then you can wrap whatever design you desire around it. Without an adequate engine Tejas would never reach the promised land. It would be simply stupid to then have huge expectations from the future AMCA program. Quite simply, Tejas is DRDO's once in a lifetime make or break moment. If Tejas doesn't work out then quite simply nothing else in the future will.
2) Persevere with the FGFA program no matter what. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA already looks much more promising than the F-35. The Russians have always defied the odds and who's to say they can't do it this time around?
3) Disinvestment of HAL. They are a royal waste of the taxpayers' money and have done nothing concrete for the nation in 7 decades. Open up the entire defense industry to domestic private sector participation and increase FDI limit in them to 50% 'coz 49% just doesn't make any sense. Why would a foreign manufacturer ever part with their critical technologies for a 49% stake knowing that he could easily be dispensed with whenever convenient?
4) Read the Soviet/Russian Air Combat doctrine and understand how they counter rival Western forces. The IAF's doctrine is a hybrid mixture of both Soviet and NATO strategies. Technological advantage provided by F-35 is offset by its numerous disadvantages. Still if daydreamers aspire for an American fighter then better increase your standards to the F-22 Raptor. It's an undeniable fact that the F-22 Rapor is indeed the undisputed king of the skies and has no equals in its class.
 
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manutdfan

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Typo errors
People tend to forget that there's a entire field of study devoted to counter/anti stealth as well
People tend to forget that there's an entire field of study devoted to counter/anti stealth as well

Abberviations-
1) OTH- over the horizon
2) ECM- electronic counter measures
3) IRST- infrared search and track
4) OLS- optical locator system

Additions-
2) Persevere with the FGFA program no matter what. The Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA already looks much more promising than the F-35. The Russians have always defied the odds and who's to say they can't do it this time around?
Russians never launch their fighters in the final production variant. They follow an evolutionary design approach wherein they will induct the new fighters in large numbers while still in the prototype stage and then test it to the limits while simultaneously incorporating the improvements in future variants. Example- MiG-29 Fulcrum. There's a gap of at least 4 years between the initial Fulcrum-A (1982) and the final Soviet mass production Fulcrum-C (1986) variant. The differences b/w the two variants are very significant. Note that India was the launch customer for the initial Fulcrum-A variant which had massive operational shortcomings and have only recently been rectified with the SMT/UPG upgrade. The same can be said for the Su-27 Flanker. The main benefit of this approach is that it keeps costs low and enables extensive real time testing of airframe design concepts, engines, weaponry & avionics to such an extent that the final production variant would be much more advanced compared to the initial production variants or any comparable Western fighter. Of course this means a delay of at least 6-7 years after the induction of rival Western fighters.

American and European aircraft development philosophy on the other hand, is to induct fighters only when they are mature enough and have reached the final production configuration. This is necessitated by the fact that most of of these defense contracts are private firms facing cut-throat competition whose very survival depends upon their stock price. Pros- their products are good to go from day one Cons- higher cost & future variants have no significant evolutionary improvements in terms of raw flight performance or propulsion systems with the exception of avionics and weapons.
 

Illusive

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F-35 would become an extremely costly venture for india not only the cost of the planes and maintenance but india would need dramatic infrastructure changes. This kind of investment would take a huge bite of the defense budget and hurt indigenous efforts and have india putting all it's eggs in one basket.
Extremely costly would be an understatement. Considering India is set to buy more aircrafts in the future like Pak Fa and lots of Tejas + super30 or maybe su35 instead. We just won't have the money. I mean which airforce in the world would buy 3 different combat aircraft from different partners in a decade or so. And not to mention the dilemma of Rafale.

Our Airforce would be like Jay Leno's garage :laugh:
 

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