IDN TAKE: Why India Should Buy the F-35 Lightning II

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
3,551
Likes
7,468
Country flag
Funny thing is the F-35 has turned a lot of internet forumers into over night aviation experts. Its current issues aside....

It still remains the most sensor packed fighter out there. DAS/AESA/EOTS combined they provide converges for over 1200km away from ground, air and sea based threats. It will be a good jack of all trades without being an expert at anything. Its current prices are lower than the Rafale and the Rafale isn't stealthy. It provides flexibility and can be deployed from various spots. It can spot multiple missile launches from hundreds of miles away including cruise missiles, rocket artillery, etc. These in terms of India will be the biggest threat during a war and having it in the air would allow us to spot such targets from far away and quickly neutralize them with a host of other options. A couple of F-35s can effectively cover entire sections of Pak with such coverage.

You see in the Indian context it would be silly to the send the F-35 for air superiority missions, while we have MKI. MKI will provide top cover while the F-35 sneaks around using holes and gaps in the enemy's air picture.

Funny they say stealth is over-rated but every air craft in development today has focus on minimizing rcs. Stealth isn't supposed to make it invulnerable, its meant to make you harder to find.

No we won't get TOT, but with a big enough buy, we can have local assembly with plenty of non critical parts being made in India. Like it or not, the F-35 will sell plenty in and around Asia/Middle East so if we buy it, with the local assembly line we get to be part of the global supply china bringing tons of work for our local players. This will bring plenty of maturity to our local aviation industry.

Since India didn't sign CISMOA, plenty of the F-35 will need local stuff too including Data Links, Comms, IFFs etc. This will have to be done together with LM

Furthermore, it is the easiest fighter ever made to fly with the best of situational awareness, so the pilot can actually focus on the fight, having a bigger focus on the fight can allow the pilot to be a lot more effective.

In this day and age, when a Brazilian F-4 can effectively kill a high and mighty Rafale in a simulated dogfight, anything can happen, the Mig-21 Bison ran circles around the F-5/F-16 some years ago. Dogfighting is all about pilot skills, now if the pilot is more focused on the fight, he will have the advantages hands down. The F-35 will have a big advantage.

Also is it still an aircraft in 'TESTING' there are bound to be issues. No one has ever tried anything remotely so complex. Its the biggest military program ever and it has always been ambitious but by FOC circa 2020 it will be fine.

I believe it is a better buy than the Rafale and no one says we can't operate 3 VLO fighters.
 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
3,551
Likes
7,468
Country flag
I think IAF should order 120 F-35A instead of the Rafale, IN should order 40 F-35B 10 each for its 4 LPDs hopefully the massive Juan Carlos and another 40 for the INS Vishal. A total order of 200. Order FOC versions with deliveries staring 2021 and running through till 2030 with IAF receiving their fighters first and IN receiving them as and when the LPDs & Carriers get ready. Order 60 PAKFA off the shelf now, for deliveries staring 2019-2022, order another 140 PAKFA for local assembly till 2028.

Focus on making AMCA a 6.5+ Gen aircraft combining everything we learn from PAKFA/MKI/LCA MK-2 and F-35. AMCA should eventually start replacing the oldest MKIs starting 2030. At the moment our industry isn't mature enough to make a 5th gen aircraft.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
590
Country flag
I think IAF should order 120 F-35A instead of the Rafale, IN should order 40 F-35B 10 each for its 4 LPDs hopefully the massive Juan Carlos and another 40 for the INS Vishal. A total order of 200. Order FOC versions with deliveries staring 2021 and running through till 2030 with IAF receiving their fighters first and IN receiving them as and when the LPDs & Carriers get ready. Order 60 PAKFA off the shelf now, for deliveries staring 2019-2022, order another 140 PAKFA for local assembly till 2028.

Focus on making AMCA a 6.5+ Gen aircraft combining everything we learn from PAKFA/MKI/LCA MK-2 and F-35. AMCA should eventually start replacing the oldest MKIs starting 2030. At the moment our industry isn't mature enough to make a 5th gen aircraft.
That's a huge shopping list which needs a large amount of funds.

As you have suggested such a mighty proposal can you also share the source or medium how to pay for all these?
 

Kharavela

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
519
Likes
799
Country flag
It's an undeniable fact that the F-22 Rapor is indeed the undisputed king of the skies and has no equals in its class.
I agree to your whole post except the above quoted simply because F22 Raptor has not proven its might even in any exercise whereas Flankers have dominated airspace in every challenge emanated from west (Red Flag, Indradhanush etc).
 

BATTLE FIELD

Battle Captain
Regular Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
237
Likes
180
what the hell is this
f-35 is a fat buffalo.

if U.S want to give us stealth then give us the b2.
 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
3,551
Likes
7,468
Country flag
I agree to your whole post except the above quoted simply because F22 Raptor has not proven its might even in any exercise whereas Flankers have dominated airspace in every challenge emanated from west (Red Flag, Indradhanush etc).
Lets not exaggerate, F-22 has quite dominated every exercise it has played in, apart from occasional kills by SHs, F-16s. The MKI too dominated but it had its weak moment such SAM kills during Red Flag.
 

Immanuel

Senior Member
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
3,551
Likes
7,468
Country flag
That's a huge shopping list which needs a large amount of funds.

As you have suggested such a mighty proposal can you also share the source or medium how to pay for all these?
Raise the defense budget. The economy continues to grow and all things will pay for themselves.
 

BATTLE FIELD

Battle Captain
Regular Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
237
Likes
180
Yeh lo another expert, pray tell why on earth would be buy a B-2 when a single unit costs well over 2 billion.
then why the hell we should buy the buffalo oh sorry i mean f-35 when we are getting pak fa and hope fully AMCA and super sukhoi

this f-35 which will cost more money to us and nearly more than 5 years to start delivery.

IAF and defence ministry knows what they are doing.
 

Kharavela

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
519
Likes
799
Country flag
Lets not exaggerate, F-22 has quite dominated every exercise it has played in, apart from occasional kills by SHs, F-16s. The MKI too dominated but it had its weak moment such SAM kills during Red Flag.
Regarding dogfighting capabilities of F22 Raptor, please read the following:
1) http://www.businessinsider.com/f-22...toring-raptor-typhoon-eurofighter-2013-2?IR=T
2) http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...ses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/

In first-ever participation of Su-30 MKI in Red Flag 2008 (where F22 did not participate), the following was the observation: http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/03/10/dissecting_a_dogfight_sukhoi_vs_usaf_at_red_flag_2008_33623

1) "The Su-30MKI’s powerful Russian-made NIIP-BARS radar was operating only in the training mode which limited the sensor’s range and spectrum of capabilities. The self-imposed radar restrictions prevented US snoops from "mapping" the high-tech radar. But other restrictions were dictated by the hosts, Fulghum writes.

2) The Indians were barred from using data-links, chaff and flares. When they were targeted by surface to air missiles, they were shot down. There was no data picture in the cockpit to help IAF pilots’ situational awareness so the work load on the aircrews was high. Also, the IAF’s most powerful air-to-air missile, the R-77, was not simulated in the exercises."

3) The colonel wrongly assessed the Sukhoi’s rate of turn at 22-23 degrees but he also made the startling revelation that the Raptor’s was 28 degrees. Did he unwittingly reveal classified information? At any rate, the Sukhoi’s rate of turn – with thrust vectoring – is considerably superior at 35 degrees.
It is acknowledged in aviation circles the Flanker is a class above the F-15. In Fornof’s own view a well-flown F-15 can trouble an F-22; so a properly flown Flanker can potentially kill a Raptor in a knife fight.
 

Bahamut

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
2,740
Likes
2,259
F 35 is optimize for stealth in X band of radar which is used by most military planes but recently there are planes which also use L and S band of radar for target identification and tracking while using X band for locking on target as a result the advantage of stealth for F 35 will be lost and due to it poor kinetic performance it will a sitting duck.
 

Bahamut

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
2,740
Likes
2,259
Lockheed-Martin F-35 Lightning II
Joint Strike Fighter
Assessing the Joint Strike Fighter

Technical Report APA-TR-2007-0102
by Dr Carlo Kopp, SMAIAA, MIEEE, PEng
January, 2007
Updated April, 2012Text, Line Art © 2004 - 2012 Carlo Kopp


First flight of SDD JSF Prototype AA-1 in December, 2006. This aircraft is a 'non-representative prototype' which predates in construction a series of structural and systems weight reduction measures. The aircraft is equipped with a dummy EOTS fairing under the nose (Imagery via Air Force Link).

"Given what is known about both the JSF and F-22A, Department of Defence assertions claiming 'the really big difference is in cost' are little more than nonsense."



Background
In late 2003 testimony to the Joint Standing Committee of Federal Parliament on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade the Canberra Defence Department leadership asserted that the 'the really big difference [between the F-22A and Joint Strike Fighter] is in cost'. This remarkable statement, and others of a similar ilk, explains much of the euphoria surrounding the Joint Strike Fighter in Canberra Defence leadership circles - the Joint Strike Fighter is incorrectly perceived to be a 'single engine F-22A clone'. Given the design aims, development histories and characteristics of these aircraft, this belief is not supportable by available evidence.

This analysis will delve deeper into the differences between the JSF and its more capable generational sibling, the F-22A Raptor, and explore recent developments in the JSF program, with the aim of separating myth from fact.

This analysis is an updated and expanded version of the original 2004 analysis.
Resources
  1. Kopp C. and Goon P.A., Review of Defence Annual Report 2002-03: Analysis of Department of Defence Responses, Submission to the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade, January, 2004, Parliament House, Australia.
  2. Goon P.A. - ADA Defender - Winter 2005 - Affordability and the new air combat capability
  3. HeadsUp Newsletter - Issue 318 - HEADSUP SPECIAL - Is the JSF really good enough? analysing the ASPI paper
  4. HeadsUp Newsletter - Issue 322 - HEADSUP SPECIAL - F/A-22As, JSFs and 21st Century air combat
  5. Australian Aviation - November 2004 - JSF = Thunderchief II? (PDF)
  6. Defence Today - March/April 2006 - LtGen D.A. Deptula Interview, Maintaining Air Dominance in the Pacific
  7. Kopp C., May 1998 - Replacing the RAAF F/A-18 Hornet Fighter, Strategic, Operational and Technical Issues -Submission to the Minister for Defence
  8. Air Power Australia - January 2007 - GBU-39/40/42 Small Diameter Bomb
  9. Australian Aviation - April 2004 - Is the Joint Strike Fighter Right for Australia? Pt.1
  10. Australian Aviation - May 2004 - Is the Joint Strike Fighter Right for Australia? Pt.2
  11. Australian Aviation - April/May 1991 - The Advanced Tactical Fighter
  12. Air Power International - September 1998 - JUST HOW GOOD IS THE F-22 RAPTOR? Carlo Kopp interviews F-22 Chief Test Pilot, Paul Metz
  13. Air Power Australia - January 2007 - Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power
  14. Air Power Australia - December 2006 - Almaz S-300PT/PS/PMU-1/2, S-400 Triumf, S-400M Samoderzhets
  15. Air Power Australia - December 2006 - Antey S-300V and S-300VM



Joint Strike Fighter vs F-22A - A Comparative Assessment
Both the JSF and F-22A reflect a process of strategic and technological evolution which began during the 1980s. This was a period during which the Soviet empire reached the peak of its military power before its economic and political collapse, a period during which the high performance Sukhoi Su-27 and Mikoyan MiG-29 entered large scale production, and massive Soviet tank armies presented the benchmark of land power worldwide.

During this period the US Air Force relied upon its fleet of F-15A/C Eagle air superiority fighters, supported by the smaller but highly agile F-16A/C, as the means of breaking the back of Warpac air forces in the pivotal Central European theatre. Soviet land forces were to be broken by a mix of F-111, A-7D, A-10A and later, F-16C strike aircraft.

The F-15A was primarily aimed at air superiority, although the weapon system supported a range of modes for dumb bomb delivery, used extensively by the Israelis in combat. The enhanced F-15C gained Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) to push internal fuel up from 13,455 lb to 23,200 lb, and avionics/engine enhancements. The F-16A was like the F-15A aimed at air superiority, but limited by radar to mostly day VFR combat. While exceptionally agile, the 6,800 lb internal fuel capacity severely limited this aircraft.

Growing Soviet air power, especially the new Sukhoi Su-27 and Mikoyan MiG-29, provided the impetus for further air superiority fighter development. The US Air Force launched the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) program aimed at replacing the F-15 with an aircraft providing an overwhelming capability margin over the Su-27/MiG-29 - similar to that held by the F-15A over the MiG-21 and MiG-23. A key feature of the ATF was the addition of a supersonic cruise or 'supercruise' capability - the ability to remain supersonic on dry thrust as long as the fuel payload permitted. Supercruise was intended to provide an unbeatable total energy advantage over fighters with conventional propulsion which are limited to mere minutes in full afterburner before exhausting their fuel. A side benefit was the ability to transit from runways in Holland and the UK to the FEBA in half the time the F-15 required. Considerable R&D investment was made very early into the supercooled turbine engine technology required to support this regime of flight - stealth became a feature of the ATF program only after the F-117A proved to be viable.

The ATF flyoff saw the stealthier, more agile and faster Northrop/MDC YF-23A pitted against the Lockheed/Boeing/GD YF-22A, with P&W and GE bidding their respective YF119 and YF120 engines. By 1991, the respective winners were the Lockheed led team and P&W, in a large part due to their more conservative and thus lower risk designs.

The then YF-22A ATF had evolved into the technological flagship of the 4th/5th generation fighter class - now embodied in the technologies in the F-22A and JSF. The F-22A aircraft, now known as the Raptor, has supersonic cruise engines, thrust vectoring, all aspect stealth capability, a large active phased array radar, and the innovative Pave Pillar avionics architecture, which shifted all signal and data processing into a group of centralised multiple processor chip computers. It is an all weather, day/night, 24/7 air dominance air combat capability aircraft which, by definition, is multi role.

As the Soviet empire collapsed the role of the F-22A evolved to encompass the 'deep strike' role of the current F-117A (and earlier the F-111) - destroying heavily defended ground targets using smart bombs. With the current phase out of the F-117A, the Holloman FW will be one of the first to deploy the Raptor.

The 250 lb class GBU-39/B Small Diameter Bomb came into existence as a weapon to increase the internally carried firepower of the F-22A, limited then to a pair of internal 1,000 lb GBU-32 JDAMs, as well to address the increasing rules of engagement and laws of armed conflict based pressures for minimising collateral damage. The current F-22A is a genuine multirole fighter, with high resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar capability and to be tasked as much with air superiority as with killing SAM sites, radars, airfields, bunkers, command posts and other high value assets. The planned US Air Force Global Strike Task Force (GSTF) will comprise 48 F-22As and a dozen B-2As and is intended to break the back of any opponent, globally.

Penetrating defences at 50,000 ft and sustained supersonic speeds, the F-22A defeats most SAMs by kinematic performance alone - its stealth capability defeating the top tier S-300/S-400 series systems. The F-22A will remain the most survivable strike fighter in existence for decades to come - and the most lethal air superiority fighter.

The JSF evolved from a completely different set of needs and strategic pressures, and occupies a completely different niche in the US force structure. While the JSF program has its origins in the early 1990s, the philosophical thinking in many of its key design features dates to a similar era to that of the ATF program.

The problem of breaking Soviet ground forces increased in difficulty during the 1980s. As the Soviets introduced night vision equipment on tanks, and fielded the highly mobile SA-12 (S-300V), SA-11 (9K37), SA-15 (9K330) battlefield air defence weapons, it became evident that the existing fleet of A-10A and A-7D close air support and battlefield interdiction (CAS/BAI) aircraft would be hard pressed to survive, let alone provide the numbers to break the Soviets in the Fulda Gap. While the USAFE F-111E/F deep strike force was being supplemented with 200 of the new Dual Role Fighter (F-15E 'Beagle') and the 60 F-117A stealth fighters, Tactical Air Command's CAS/BAI force was sorely in need of improvement. A fly-off was started between an upgraded A-7D Corsair II, the YA-7F with the F-16's P&W F100 afterburning fan, and an enhanced F-16B variant. Concurrently, trials commenced with dual seat YA-10Bs fitted with the then new LANTIRN package of pods - one pod carrying a terrain following radar and look into turn steered thermal imager, the other laser / thermal imager pod most akin to a miniaturised Pave Tack.

This ambitious plan for enhancing the CAS/BAI fleet collapsed as the Soviets collapsed, but important lessons were learned, all reflected now in the JSF program. The A-7F was found to have inadequate fuel capacity for the role though its mildly supersonic speed was suitable, while the A-10A's low speed remained a problem. The F-16 equipped with the LANTIRN system was found to be cumbersome - the pod set was designed for the deep strike F-15E / F-16E (XL) intended for strikes on prebriefed targets rather than searching for difficult to spot ground targets in proximity to friendly troops. Perhaps the most significant technology then trialled on the F-16B was a head steered thermal imaging turret mounted in front of the windshield. This was found to be very effective, as the pilot could look around the aircraft, in any direction, to find targets and spot incoming SAMs and gunfire. In conventional low level close support work, fighters ended up orbiting the area of interest while ground Forward Air Controllers relayed the enemy force position. Being able to look over the shoulder to locate targets proved invaluable.

This experience was prominent in the minds of US force planners during the early 1990s, as the JSF was born, and LANTIRN equipped F-16CGs absorbed the role performed by the A-7D. The A-10A soldiered on, only recently acquiring Israeli built Litening II targeting pods.

During this period the US Air Force deep strike fleet retained the F-111F, the new F-15E and the stealthy F-117A, backed up by the B-52G/H, and the new B-1B and B-2A heavy bombers. The then recent Desert Storm campaign illustrated that the key weakness in the force structure was the battlefield strike fleet - not only was the survivability of the slow A-10A a problem, but the range/endurance of the F-16C was inadequate even for the modest 400 to 600 NMI radius needed. The US Navy and Marines experienced similar troubles with the F/A-18s, while the Marines' AV-8B Harriers suffered disproportionate losses to heatseeking SAMs.

As the JSF program materialised from the JAST technology demonstration effort, each of the respective US players brought their own wishlists to the table.

The US Air Force wanted a better CAS/BAI package than provided by the existing mix of F-16CG and A-10A, one which absorbed all of the valuable lessons of the late 1980s and Desert Storm. This meant more fuel and weapon stations than the F-16C, stealth optimised to beat radar guided battlefield SAMs and AAA, all round night vision to improve survivability against ground defences and the ability to find immediate ground targets hidden from the view of a FAC. The F-16 community insisted on good close-in air combat capability - a hedge against enemy fighters breaking through top cover CAP defences. While early proposals were devoid of an expensive radar, intended to rely on ground target coordinates provided by E-8 JSTARS, UAVs and satellites, the demand for air combat capability and more autonomy saw this idea die very quickly.

The politically vocal and influential US Marines wanted a replacement for their F/A-18s and AV-8B Harriers, which meant a V/STOL capability, but faster and more survivable. The Marines, like the F-16C community, insisted on close-in air combat capability, and wanted an all weather day night avionic package better than their two seat F/A-18D fleet had. Tasked with close air support, the Marines needed an aircraft capable of surviving SAM and AAA defences at low level, and capable of autonomous target acquisition, in the absence of capabilities like the E-8 JSTARS.

The US Navy at that time suffered significant losses in the budgetary game. The A-12A Avenger II (Dorito) died at the hands of DepSec Cheney, in an acrimonious dispute over performance and price, leaving them without a replacement for the deep strike A-6E Intruder fleet. With much investment in a collapsed A-6 upgrade and the A-12A avionic suite, the Navy wanted a bomber which could absorb as much as possible of the capability planned for the A-12A. What is significant is that the US Navy had a large investment in air-ground radar technology. The capability for simultaneous Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) high resolution groundmapping and Ground Moving Target Indicator (GMTI) mobile target tracking had its origins in a Norden radar planned for the A-6, and later becoming the basis of the APG-76 radar fitted to Israeli F-4Es. This capability was to be absorbed in the A-12A's active phased array which also collapsed. It has rematerialised now in the JSF's radar system - the higher power rating of this radar against the F/A-18 radars reflecting the power-hungry GMTI mode.

These diverse needs coalesced in the JSF program, which attempts to reconcile them with further and much broader aims. The stated service needs for the JSF are thus (JSF website):

  • USN -- first day of war, survivable strike fighter aircraft to complement F/A-18E/F (This provides the stealth capability lost in the A-12A bomber, the strike radius capability and the all-weather strike avionics capabilities lost in the A-6/A-12A).
  • USAF -- multirole aircraft (primary-air-to-ground) to replace the F-16 and A-10 (This absorbs the existing capabilities of the F-16CG, A-10A but incorporating the CAS/BAI avionics lessons of the late 1980s).
  • USMC -- STOVL aircraft to replace the AV-8B and F/A-18 (This replaces the capabilities in the basic and radar equipped AV-8B variants, the night strike F/A-18D and basic F/A-18C).
All three primary users plan to fly their JSFs with stealthy internal weapons during the initial phase of a conflict, shifting to larger payloads of non-stealthy external weapons once the primary radar directed air defences are broken.

Two other factors had a decisive influence on the JSF as we see it today. The first is that much of the avionic, stealth and engine technology first seen in the F-22A program was absorbed, but adapted for higher volume production and lower costs where achievable. The second was the adoption of a Cost As an Independent Variable (CAIV) design philosophy, intended to trade off capabilities and performance as required to achieve very ambitious cost aims - the simplest US Air Force model was originally to come in at US$38M unit flyaway cost each, including ECO and non-recurring costs.

The common thread running through all of the US service roles is a primary strike optimisation, reflected in the avionics and airframe design of the aircraft. Single service roles have been clearly traded down to achieve commonality. The JSF will not provide the payload-radius of the Navy A-6/A-12A deep strike aircraft, nor will it provide the relative agility advantages of the Air Force F-16A against its original Soviet opponents. The aircraft has a more complex and expensive avionic suite than would be required for any of the single service roles, as it rolls all three requirements into one package. The JSF's stealth capabilities are more narrowly optimised than those of the F-117A and F-22A, reflecting the need to survive mobile battlefield and littoral defences rather than penetrating an Integrated Air Defence System in depth.

The JSF is thus a radically different aircraft to the F-22A, in its primary design aims, capabilities and performance. Against its mid 1990s role definitions, the JSF is a very good fit, but with the evolution since 2001 toward persistent battlefield strike tactics, the JSF falls short in both fuel capacity and weapon payload. Were the JSF defined and sized today, the CTOL/CV variants would be larger twin engine fighters closer in size to the F-111 - the only viable commonality with the VSTOL roles would be in avionics and engine cores.

While the CTOL/CV JSF carries an 18,000 lb class and the F-22A a 20,650 lb internal fuel load, the now 29,000 to 32,000 lb class empty weight JSF at design configuration 240-4 employs a single engine rated in the 40,000 lbf wet thrust class, against the F-22A's pair of 35,000 lbf wet thrust class engines, the latter totalling 70,000 lbf. This results in an enormous difference in achievable thrust/weight ratio, both dry and wet, as the much larger and and only marginally heavier F-22A has almost twice the engine thrust available. Engine optimisations are also quite different, as the JSF's F135 uses a larger low(er) altitude optimised fan, compared to the high altitude optimised fan of the F-22A's F119-PW-100. The JSF trades away high altitude supersonic engine performance to achieve better cruise and loiter burn, and extract as much thrust as possible at lower altitudes, essential for its primary design role of battlefield strike.

The design optimisations of the 460 sqft (CTOL/STOVL) and now 668 sqft (CV) JSF wings and the 830 sqft class F-22A wing also differ radically. With a leading edge sweep of around 34 degrees, the JSF wing sits between the F-16 and F/A-18, and is nearly identical to the battlefield strike optimised A-7D/E series. The F-22A's wing at around 40 degrees sweep is closer to the F-15 and Su-27/30 series - a tradeoff between supersonic drag and turning performance. Unlike the F-22A which is designed around supersonic agility, the JSF wing trades away supersonic performance to maximise subsonic cruise/loiter efficiency - classical bomber optimisation rather than air combat optimisation.

The basic aerodynamic and propulsion optimisations of the JSF against the F-22A reflect their original airframe design aims - the F-22A to kill other fighters and penetrate air defences at supersonic speeds, the JSF to hunt battlefield ground targets, and evade missiles and fighters. Like the F-15, the F-22A can be swung to strike roles without sacrificing its supersonic performance, but the JSF's wing and engine optimisations preclude it from ever achieving high supersonic performance, vital for running down supersonic opponents like the Su-27/30, or supersonic cruise missiles, or supersonic cruise missile launch platforms like the Tu-22M3 Backfire.

The stealth design optimisations of the F-22A and JSF also differ markedly. The deep penetration and air dominance roles of the F-22A dictated all aspect capability, resulting in the expensive edge aligned thrust vector nozzle design, which provides good 'wideband' frequency capability. The JSF is optimised for best stealth in the forward sector, sharing general airframe shaping rules common to the F-22A. The notable difference is in the serrated edge circular nozzle of the JSF, which is clearly optimised for best performance in the X and Ku-bands, typical of fighter radars, SAM/AAA tracking systems and missile seekers. To achieve lower costs the JSF accepts notable aft sector stealth limitations, especially when tackling deep or layered air defences with fighter threats - an acceptable tradeoff for shallow littoral and FEBA area battlefield strikes against predominantly short range mobile air defence systems. The aim in the JSF is to use newer materials technology than the F-22A does to reduce stealth costs, although we are likely to see this technology migrate across to the F-22A in later blocks.

The core avionic systems of the JSF and F-22A share a common architectural model - sensors are 'dumbed down' and signal/data processing is migrated from specialised hardware to software running on general purpose high performance computer processors in central processing boxes. This very powerful model permits rapid evolution in signal and data processing techniques, within the limitations imposed by the sensors used to gather information. Both the F-22A and JSF are to now use cheaper commercial processing chips and optical bus technology. The distinctions in onboard computing power between both types will be given by the immediate block upgrade configuration at that time - both using multiple COTS PowerPC chips.

The sensor suites of both fighters differ strongly, reflecting their different roles. The F-22A's APG-77 active array radar with 1500 modules of higher power rating than the 1200 module APG-81 radar of the JSF achieves significantly better detection range against airborne targets, and by default greater stand-off range in SAR groundmapping - and any growth GMTI/MMTI modes. The APG-77 also has growth provisions for sidelooking cheek arrays. The JSF APG-81 radar is conversely designed around simultaneous SAR/GMTI strike capability, but providing air-air detection capabilities much better than the F/A-18A-D and F-16C-F. The fundamental differences between the radar packages lie not only in the F-22A's much superior air-to-air range performance, but also in their long term growth potential. While radio-frequency modifications and software growth permit the APG-77 to acquire the capabilities in the JSF APG-81, the JSF's nose size, power generation capacity and cooling capacity will set limits on the achievable air-air and air-ground range growth in the JSF. Recent reports indicate that a second generation F-22A antenna, using common modules to the JSF but of higher power rating, will be phased into later block production of the F-22A.

The passive electronic detection suites in both aircraft differ, although few details have been disclosed. The JSF system is claimed to incorporate a passive emitter location capability (passive rangefinding of threat radars), effectively absorbing the role of the F-16CJ. Given the F-22A's demand for higher operating altitudes and threat radar geolocation for deep penetration, we can safely assume that its ALR-94 passive detection system will be much more sensitive - the radar horizon at 50,000 ft is much further away than at 25,000 ft.

The F-22A was to have been fitted with the Advanced Infra-Red Search and Track (AIRST) system, provisioned for in the avionics. This has not materialised as yet for funding reasons. The JSF on the other hand is equipped from day one with two optical systems - the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) and the DAS (Distributed Aperture [InfraRed] System).

The EOTS is a repackaged growth derivative of the latest LM Sniper XR laser / TV / thermal imaging pod, fitted inside a faceted sapphire window chin fairing. It will provide TV and midwave IR imaging with multiple fields of view, and increased range laser designation and ranging capability over most existing podded systems.

The JSF's DAS is a radically new idea, using six fixed thermal imagers to provide spherical coverage around the aircraft, and digital processing to provide not only missile threat warning, but also a look anywhere Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS) capability for the pilot. The DAS combines the ideas trialled in F-16 head steered FLIRs for battlefield strike, with an all aspect IR Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) capability - the latter reflecting ongoing losses of A-10s and AV-8Bs to low level IR MANPADS and mobile SAMs. While an EOTS equivalent for the F-22A has been repeatedly discussed in the US press, it is unlikely to be added until later blocks due to existing cost caps.

The JSF cockpit is newer technology to that of the F-22A, using a single panel redundant projector rather than individual AMLCD display panels. Production cost pressures may see the JSF display technology absorbed in later blocks of the F-22A. Integrated capabilities for networking with other platforms are similar for both, driven by the need for intra-type, and intra and inter service interoperability - with the caveat that the larger sensor footprint of the F-22A makes it a very much better 'information gatherer' compared to the JSF.




The technological design features of a fighter can be divided by the rate at which they evolve over time. The smartest long term choices are always those which put the highest priority on design features which cannot be altered once the aircraft is in service, accepting that rapidly changing technologies will be replaced over the life of the aircraft. The most attractive aspects of the JSF are all in areas which rapidly evolve, whereas its least attractive aspects are in areas which cannot evolve. From a technological strategy perspective the JSF is a very poor choice long term compared to the F-22A (Author).




JSF Growth Potential Issues


For Australia another key long term issue will be the growth potential of the JSF design. Additional engine thrust for a given core technology is usually achieved by increasing engine massflow - informed sources indicate the current inlet design has only a very modest growth margin in available massflow. Whether a 50,000 lb class F135/F136 derivative can be used with this inlet has not been disclosed to date.

Another growth issue will be available internal volume for avionics, and especially waste heat management capacity. Any increases in ICP capacity and AESA power rating will be reflected in significantly greater waste heat to be dumped from the systems, already reported to be an issue at this stage. Again, for US users targeting interdiction and support roles avionic growth limits may be largely irrelevant - more radar range and a larger information gathering footprint are not critical factors. For Australia, competing with Sukhoi growth in air combat roles, and using the JSF to provide ISR and long range strike capabilities, growth will be a decisive issue.

The design of the EOTS window fairing and nose radomes will impose hard limits on any aperture size growth in these key sensors, in turn setting bounds on achievable sensitivity growth. This is especially a problem for advanced IRST capabilities, which require also an expensive replacement of the Sapphire windows with a longwave transmissive material.

There are many as yet unresolved technological risks in the JSF, and many of these may not be manifested until later this decade or, with slippages in the integrated flight test program, early in the next decade - potentially impairing the performance of the JSF in precisely those areas where Australia needs to be highly competitive longer term.


Build Numbers, Timelines and Costs


Other major risks will arise in relation to build numbers, delivery timelines and costs. We have already observed a 12 month delay introduced into the program to manage risks, while US$5B was shifted from the LRIP budget into the development budget late 2003. While full scale production is almost a decade away, any schedule slippages will impact production costs. Flyaway costs of aircraft are highest at the start of full scale production, and progressively reduce as cumulative build numbers accrue, production investment is amortised, and component manufacture matures.

Current Defence planning sees Phase 1/2 JSF deliveries starting around 2012 and ending later that decade. If the JSF production schedule is delayed significantly, Australia buys more expensive JSFs sitting earlier on the production cost curve. In plain dollar terms, buying JSFs in 2020 is cheaper than buying them in 2012.

Cost related risks fall into three broad categories. The first is that resolution of technological problems drives up the build cost. The second is that schedule delays put any Australian buy into an earlier portion of the cost curve, assuming current planning schedules for F/A-18A replacement. The third is that US and export clients buy lesser numbers.

The third is potentially the most problematic, as it is driven by overseas budgetary politics and evolving strategic needs. It could manifest itself very late in the program. Since Australia joined SDD we have seen the US Navy and Marines trim back their buys, with the current total sitting around 2,500 aircraft. Only the Marines and the UK are technologically locked into the JSF as they use STOVL carriers. The US Navy could bail out and buy more F/A-18E/Fs if the going gets too tough for them at any stage.

The early February, 2007, release of US budgetary figures saw this risk materialise, with a constrained US budgetary environment forcing a reduction in the sustained JSF production rate from 110 aircraft annually to 48 annually, for the US Air Force. While the US Air Force would like to buy 1763 aircraft, it is capped by the budget to a figure, which if these restrictions are sustained, will be around 720 aircraft in total.

The US Air Force is F-22A centric in its thinking, for good strategic reasons. The JSF provides a mechanism to drive down the cost of radar, engine and avionic technology used in the F-22A, like the high volume F-16A drove down engine costs for the F-15A. No less importantly the JSF presents a big chunk of reserved funding for the ACC fighter fleet, one which might be redirected at a future date into funding more F-22As. Given the choice of putting the money into more F-22As, or JSFs, there is no contest once the US Air Force has covered its most critical replacement needs in close air support tasked A-10As and older F-16s. USAF planning of the current A-10C spiral upgrade program for which Lockheed Martin is the prime contractor is providing new capabilities to the A-10 fleet which is not intended to be operational beyond 2028.

Shifting strategic needs over the longer term could have the greatest impact on US Air Force numbers, as their targeting model is reoriented from predominantly static to mostly mobile ground targets. Even at the JSF's nominal 600 NMI radius, a lot of tanking is required to achieve significant persistence. An F-111 sized FB-22A works much better as a battlefield interdiction asset than a JSF does, and if the FB-22A does materialise it will subsume over time much of the battlefield interdiction role, driving the JSF into the specialised lower altitude close air support role which it is superbly adapted to.

As the Quadrennial Defence Review early in 2006 indicated, encroachment on the core JSF battlefield interdiction role by other platforms is an ongoing issue.

As yet an unknown is the pricing and numbers impact arising from any move by the US Air Force aimed at splitting its JSF buy into CTOL and STOVL variants - a proposal revived by SecAF James Roche at the 2004 AFA (Air Force Association) symposium in the US and intended to bolster CAS/BAI strength in expeditionary forces. If this occurs, build numbers of CTOL JSF go down further driving up flyaway costs, and build numbers of STOVL go up, driving down flyaway costs. Out of a finite budget a smaller total number of JSFs is bought for the US Air Force, in turn impacting flyaway costs across all three variants. The US Air Force started hedging its bets on JSF timelines by planning engine and avionic upgrades, and wing structural rebuilds, for most of the A-10As in their fleet, in 2004, upgrading them to A-10Cs with improved avionics, new cockpit, HOTAS system, upgraded electrical power capacity, new low level NAV/Targeting capabilities, MIL-1760 weapons bus upgrade, capability to carry electro-optical targeting pods and the latest 'J' series weapons.

Long term export numbers for the JSF remain unclear. Many EU F-16 operators will simply opt to swap their existing fleets for incrementally better JSFs, in a truly benign post Soviet local strategic environment. With the cost increases resulting from the reduced US Air Force build rate, we might see partner nations bailing out, and will see reductions in buy sizes to fit within constrained national defence budgets.



With similar internal fuel loads in production models (differing from demonstrators), the larger but cleaner F-22A provides similar combat radius to the JSF. Both types will suffer combat radius loss with draggy external payloads, and both types require extensive aerial refuelling support to compete with the existing F-111 in both range/payload and on station persistence.






What Next for Australia?


The Defence leadership's interest in using the JSF for air control / air dominance roles, and long range strike roles, does not fit well with the basic design optimisations of the JSF, or the outcome of likely CAIV driven downstream performance/cost tradeoffs in the JSF program. In distant historical terms it is akin to using a P-40 to do the jobs of a Beaufighter and P-38.

In its core role of 'classical' battlefield interdiction and close air support, the production JSF is apt to be a superb performer, more lethal and survivable than the F-16C, F/A-18A-D, A-10A and AV-8B it replaces. Its effectiveness in the air combat role, against the ever evolving capabilities of the Sukhoi fighters and newer Russian missiles, is very much open to debate and clearly problematic. In the long range strike role, around 60 JSFs with generous tanking could match the aggregate punch of the existing F-111 fleet, but the 'narrowband' stealth optimisations of the design will not provide the kind of unchallenged survivable deep strike capability Australia gained in 1973 with the F-111, pitted against then available regional capabilities.

The big question for Australia is whether the JSF is suitable as a single type replacement for the F/A-18A and F-111. Aside from the fractional battlefield interdiction and close air support roles, the JSF falls well short in the prime air control and deep strike roles, compared to the alternative F-22A and likely future FB-22A. The JSF is clearly no match for the F-111 as a basic 'bomb truck'.

Even from an early stage in the NACC/AIR 6000 program an overwhelming case could be made for restructuring the program to focus on the F-22A rather than JSF, with a decision deferred past 2008. While the F-22A was slightly more expensive, it is also more mature and much more capable permitting smaller numbers to achieve better combat effect. A package of 36 F-22As is more lethal and survivable than a package of 72 JSFs, especially in the critical air control and deep strike roles.

An 'F-22A-centric' NACC solution involves a mature production fighter after 2010 and incurs none of the schedule, technology and cost structure risks, or longer term strategic and technological risks associated with the JSF - an 'F-22A-centric' NACC is a very safe solution, strategically, fiscally and politically.

The current plan for early retirement of the F-111 is particularly unhelpful in terms of providing long term options for the NACC program. Retention of the F-111s past 2020 would permit spreading the expense of F-22A, JSF or mixed buys over a longer timeline, without any capability gaps arising. The current plan simply forces the replacement buys into an earlier and more expensive time window, while incurring a large capability gap and wastage of prior taxpayer's investment.

Indeed, the cost disparity between Australian Industry proposals for an F-22A/F-111 force mix, against the current Defence plan centred in the expensive rebarrelling of the F/A-18A/B HUG fleet, acquisition of F/A-18F 'interim fighters' and later the JSF, is over A$11 billion - in favour of the Industry Proposal - and rising as long standing, previously identified risks materialise in the HUG and JSF programs.

The intended acquisition of F/A-18F 'interim fighters' simply offsets the reduced availability of the F/A-18A/B HUG fleet resulting from increasing downtime of aircraft due to structural rebuilds and does not result in recovering any of the capability lost through premature and unwarranted F-111 retirement.

The stark reality is that whatever aircraft is chosen by the then incumbent Defence leadership group, Australia will have to live with it into the 2040 to 2050 timescale. Choices which might look just good enough against the region today will not be competitive within the decade let alone two to three decades hence, as a wealthier Asia invests increasingly in modern air power.

The current JSF-centric plan for the RAAF's future is simply not good enough, and the band-aid acquisition of the F/A-18F Super Hornet only exacerbates its problems.



Imagery Sources: US Air Force, Author
Line Artwork: © 2005, 2007 Carlo Kopp
 

Bahamut

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
2,740
Likes
2,259
Why the F-22 and the PAK-FA have the “Right Stuff” and why the F/A-18 and the F-35 do not

Air Power Australia - Australia's Independent Defence Think Tank

Air Power Australia NOTAM
30th March, 2010


WGCDR Chris Mills, AM, BSc, MSc(AFIT), RAAF (Retd)


Peter Goon, BEng (Mech), FTE (USNTPS),
Head of Test and Evaluation, Air Power Australia

Contacts: Peter Goon
Carlo Kopp

Mob: 0419-806-476 Mob: 0437-478-224


South China Sea, 16N, 114E, 2018. Captain Charles (Charlie) Brown is flying Number 2 in a battle formation of four F-35Cs acting as Offensive-Counter-Air ‘sweepers’ for a flight of four Super Hornets inbound for a JSOW strike on Woody Island. A large military deployment on the Island is denying free passage throughout the South China Sea, and several new oil drilling platforms have been active around the Spratly and Paracel Islands. The United Nations is not amused by this claim of sovereignty over the region, and has resolved to remove the deployment by force.

The task has been assigned to the USN, and a Carrier Battle Group lead by CVN-76 Ronald Reagan is in the area. The plan is to cut the runway and disable the port facilities, then force a withdrawal from the Island under terms dictated by the UN/USN coalition task force.

Number 3 of the F-35C sweepers gets a contact from his APG-81 radar, and the four inbound bogeys are shown across the network. Analysis of signals from the bogeys identifies them as Russian built Su-35S, previously seen moving on Woody Island by satellite recon. All the F-35Cs arm their four AIM-120D missiles and prepare for a ‘turkey shoot’, expecting to get ‘first-look, first-shot, first kill’. ‘Ah’, thinks Charlie, ‘this will be like the AN/AAQ-37 EO DAS advertisement: ‘manoeuvrability is irrelevant …let the missiles do the turning’.

What Charlie Brown doesn’t realise is that such marketing hype was only partly right. In today’s day and age, manoeuvrability becomes irrelevant when faced with high agility, more particularly extreme agility, defined as extreme manoeuvrability + extreme controllability – a deadly combination best achieved with 3D TVC engines, widely spaced, interoperated with rapid response dynamic digital flight controls in airframes with highly relaxed static stability in the longitudinal and, in the case of the PAK-FA, directional axes.

The Flankers with their extreme agility come in range at 60 miles, and the F-35C flight sorts targets and fires a pair of AIM-120Ds at each Flanker. The seconds tick by agonisingly slowly as the missiles fly out to their targets, and each pilot watches for the tell-tale radar bloom of a kill. The AN/ASQ-239 “Barracuda” Electronic Warfare system shows considerable activity from each Flanker and then …. a single bloom indicating one Flanker has been hit.

South China Sea Scenario


A pair of Su-35S prototypes, B/N 901 and 902 (KnAAPO).

Range is now 40 Nm and closing at 1,100 Nm/hr. The F-35C’s EO DAS detects four missile launch “flares” from each Flanker, twelve in all, and APG-81 radar detects missiles inbound. The F-35Cs each fire their two remaining AIM-120Ds and turn sixty degrees to maintain datalink command guidance of their missiles via the APG-81 AESA antenna. The cockpit MFDs show that the Flankers have broken away though 120 degrees, with the IRBIS-Es' swivelling antenna heads maintaining guidance contact. The AIM-120Ds, now chasing a retreating target, will fall short. The F-35Cs are not so lucky and they all break as the EO DAS senses the incoming R-77M missiles. Small active radiofrequency decoys and flares are ejected. One JSF is killed with an R-77ME missile with an active radar seeker, another with a tail-pipe hit from an R-77TE with an infrared seeker. Charlie’s JSF is now on full burner, heading for the deck and passing Mach 1.3 when ‘whoomp’ – the back-end explodes, and the cockpit is shrill with alarms and festooned with red displays of failure warnings. There is no response from the stick and he reaches for the ejection handle. A blast and excruciating pain as large chards of the shattered canopy knife into his upper body, then silence as the ‘chute’ opens.

Charlie has a bird’s-eye view as the Flankers tear into the Super Hornet Strikers. JSOWs are jettisoned and they hurriedly fire their AIM-120C5s – all miss. The Super Hornet’s defensive ALE-55 decoy does a good-job on the R-77MEs with active radar seekers, but not those with modern imaging-infrared seekers. Two Super Hornets are lost to these BVR missiles. The three Flankers close, and rapidly dispatch the remaining two Strikers. One is killed with a pair of infrared R-73 Archers, and the other with a burst from the GSH-301 30mm cannon.

And the final count: one Flanker killed, four F-35Cs and four Super Hornets killed for a Flanker vs USN Loss-Exchange Rate of 1:7.

Fiction or Prediction? In the rapidly evolving world of future air combat, costly combat capabilities are being countered before the aircraft become operational. Those combat aircraft built to an obsolete specification are effectively dead before they fly.

F-22A Raptor - Endgame Counter Measures


Above, below: F-22A Raptor ejecting flares from internal countermeasures dispensers (US Air Force).





Above, below: left and right countermeasures dispenser bay doors opened (US Air Force).


Take ‘stealth’ as an example. The original concept remains very sound, but can lead, through intellectual laziness, to several design and development consequences that will, if not addressed, lose future air combat fights.

Stealth is incompatible with classical “endgame” active electronic countermeasures for two reasons: firstly radiating large amounts of power ‘gives the game away’ and secondly, large wideband wide-angle radiofrequency power emissions require large low-loss apertures, which are difficult to make highly stealthy. So the F-22A and the JSF are not reported to currently carry all aspect active electronic defences. Unless equipped with internal endgame radio-frequency countermeasures, if they are detected, their defences are limited and their loss rate can be high, especially if they are unable to defeat the inbound weapon kinematically1.

Long-range missiles are also considered “not important” by many planners, because stealth allows a medium range missile shot before the adversary is aware you are there. Unfortunately, ‘Low-Observability’ is not the same as ‘No-Observability’. As fighter radars on large aircraft like the Su-35S and the PAK-FA deploy increased antenna size and much increased emitted radiofrequency power, and adopt advanced signal management though Active Electronically Scanned Arrays (AESAs), the formerly invisible tennis ball becomes a bright star. And a jet engine producing 40,000 lbs of thrust, is another bright star to a modern staring focal plane infrared sensor.

The mantra ‘manoeuvrability is irrelevant … let the missiles do the turning,’ is another dangerous misconception popular in the contemporary planning community. If the enemy does not have stealthy aircraft, they have to rely on several layers of countermeasures, manoeuvre being one. And it works. Blasting a simple-minded missile with clever deceptive waveforms, putting a towed decoy in its path and confusing it with forward and rear firing chaff can hide the true target, making it miss. Simple Newtonian physics shows that an aircraft at Mach 0.9 with a 9G turning capability can easily out-turn and avoid Mach 3.6 missiles with a 40G turning capability. Another miss.

Those who believe in the absolute impenetrability of ‘stealth’ create a deadly delusion: ‘you can’t see me, so you can’t fire at me, so I don’t need to care about terminal endgame countermeasures’. The problem is, the enemy can see the F-22A close up, can see the F-35 from quite a range, especially side and rear on, and can fire missiles with radar and infra-red seekers. So when these missiles close on an aircraft without effective terminal endgame countermeasures, they kill. The F-22A’s kinematics give it a fair chance of escaping a missile shot – the F-35 JSF very little chance. How does a Mach 1.5 JSF (JORD spec is Mach 1.5 S&L @ 30 kft ISA) escape a Mach 2.25 Sukhoi, especially when the Sukhoi has fuel to burn?

So, the foregoing description of a future air combat fight tells the story of changing capabilities, changing tactics, and changing Loss-Exchange-Ratios.

Why are we observing such a single-minded rejection of the need for effective endgame defences on Western combat aircraft? It is a direct by-product of a steadfast belief in Western military bureaucracies that most if not all future air combat will occur in the Beyond Visual Range (BVR) domain. There is no real evidence to support this idea, as the heavily “asymmetrical” conditions observed in air campaigns fought from 1991 through 2003 were unique and very unlikely to be repeated in the future. The advent of very long range “anti-AWACS” missiles, advanced conventional fighters like the Su-35S, and the stealthy PAK-FA, will result in far more “symmetrical” air campaigns, where the conditions permitting frequent or predominant Beyond Visual Range missile engagements will arise infrequently. Most air combat engagements will devolve into close combat, where “traditional” fighter virtues will be paramount. What follows then?

Agility is important. Countermeasures are important. The effects can be summarised in this table:
The
‘Winners’
Corner Agility
Good Poor
Endgame
Electronic Counter- Measures Good F-22E
PAK-FA
Su-35S F/A-18
Super Hornet
Undisclosed F-22A F-35 JSF

How the effects of stealth, countermeasures and agility play out depends on the combatant’s relative capabilities and the tactics employed. However, there is certainty about this: it is better to have superior agility; it is better to have effective countermeasures; but it is best to have both!


The US Navy is putting its fragile eggs in the F-35 JSF and the Super Hornet basket. This is tactically very dangerous.

F/A-18E/F/G: This aircraft has excellent countermeasures, but if the adversaries have equally good or better countermeasures and can out-manoeuvre the Super Hornet’s missiles and airframe, then the inevitable result of any engagements will be the destruction of the Super Hornets; and,

F-35 JSF: Because of the paradox of a stealthy aircraft actively jamming missiles, it is vulnerable to attack, especially within the rear-quarter from radar and infra-red guided missiles; once the aircraft is detected, then escaping from a much faster, more agile enemy is unlikely; high loss rates are predicted.
The F-22A’s Raptor countermeasures capabilities have not been disclosed publicly. The passive sensors and systems are listed, but no public information is available, as it is for other types, on active, terminal countermeasures. The logic - or illogic if you will – that a stealth aircraft does not need them suggests there are none. However to remain effective, the F-22 needs to maintain its margin of superiority over newcomers like the PAK-FA and the Su-35S and actives countermeasures will be part of the capability solution, especially when engagements are closer, faster and at ranges where even VLO aircraft can be detected and tracked.

Following the example of a very successful and cost-effective development of the F-15E from the F-15A&C, the F-22A needs to be developed along the lines of the Strike Eagle – a two-place, much enhanced “F-22E” fighter with the rear seat Weapons System Officer monitoring sensor feeds, advising the pilot and managing the passive and active terminal countermeasures – and, yes, it must have the agility and persistence to overmatch both the PAK-FA and the Su-35S.

What they will also need is effective countermeasures that don’t compromise stealth. This capability must be deployed only when needed. The ALE-55 is a good example – a towed decoy that emits signal waveforms derived from the on-board RFS/ESM and countermeasures generator, with a fibre-optic cable that could be reeled out to meet threats and retracted or jettisoned after the threat has passed. Small, powered ‘smart’ air-launched decoys with an aircraft-like infra-red or radio-frequency signature are another.

Manufacturers make stealthy gun-port openings and the F-22 has stealthy countermeasures bays on the fuselage sides, so they should be able to make stealthy electronic warfare openings large enough for effective countermeasures systems – the small and stealthy RFS/ESM antennas can collect the enemy’s signals continuously, the internal countermeasures generator forms the jamming waves for radar seekers, and directed energy for infrared seekers. The countermeasure bays open, ports blast out disruptive radiofrequency and infrared energy as needed, then the bays close and allow the fighter to fade back into the ether.


One advantage of true stealth aircraft is that their much lower radar signatures reduce the emitted power demands for an endgame electronic countermeasures suite. Rather than emitting kiloWatts, such a system can be viable emitting less than 100 Watts of power. While this has the enormous benefit of removing the need for large thermionic transmitters and supporting waveguides, it does not remove the need for jammer receiver hardware, processor hardware, techniques generator hardware, and embedded software, all of which incur maintenance, weight, volume, power and cooling demands.

Large stealth fighters like the F-22 and PAK-FA are big beneficiaries, insofar as they are large enough to incorporate internal endgame countermeasures without significant performance and capacity penalties. The much less stealthy F-35 would require much more emitter power to protect its more vulnerable beam and tail sectors, while it is severely challenged in weight, volume, power and cooling, making integration of a robust all aspect endgame electronic countermeasures suite a difficult engineering challenge, for which a genuinely satisfactory design solution may not exist2.

Some argue that the AESA radars fitted to the F-22A and the F-35 will be effective ‘Directed Energy Weapons’ (DEWs) that will destroy incoming missiles. There are three ‘difficulties’ with this notion. Firstly, AESA modules can only steer the energy beam within a cone angled about 120 degrees centred on the AESA boresight – leaving the remaining 240 degrees of the sphere unprotected. Secondly, AESA radars cover a limited bandwidth – how will its directed energy negate ‘out-of-band’ missile seekers, especially infra-red? Thirdly, ‘hardening’ missiles against DEW attack is a relatively simple and low cost exercise – there are already signs that this is taking place, e.g. active laser proximity fuses replacing radio-frequency fuses on Russian missiles.

Finally, a ‘blinding glimpse of the bleeding obvious’. If the enemy can out-manoeuvre your missiles, then the converse of that infamous advertisement is: ‘if your missiles can’t do the turning, then smart aircraft are irrelevant’. What the F-22E needs is better missiles. The MBDA Meteor is a good start, as its throttleable ramjet lets it slow to a pace where it can do the required turning in the terminal stage. However, this missile needs an alternate seeker such as the Infra-red sensor in the AIM-132 AMRAAM. Future missiles need longer range – not necessarily to kill at greater distances, but to position to end-game places where its target has poor active defences or poor stealth performance.

To conclude, resting on the laurels of the F-22A is not an option. The Su-35S has seriously dangerous and effective capabilities, even against an F-22A. The stealthy PAK-FA, albeit in an early phase of development, is showing naked air combat power in the form of extreme plus agility and persistence that, with the addition of advanced sensors, countermeasures and weapons, will likely soundly defeat the Raptor but will certainly annihilate the F-35 and the Super Hornet. Work on the F-22E needs to start immediately and be undertaken with the urgency required of a grave threat to the national defence and security of the USA and its Allies.
 

Bahamut

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
2,740
Likes
2,259
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter vs Russia's New Airborne Counter-Stealth Radars

Air Power Australia - Australia's Independent Defence Think Tank

Air Power Australia NOTAM
14th September, 2009





In the deadly pursuit of a fighter versus fighter superiority even a small advantage can have disproportionate effects on the cardinal air combat effectiveness measure – loss-exchange rates (LER).

In Russia, evolution of the Sukhoi family of fighter aircraft, and in China the revolution of the J-10B Sinocanard, shows that their designers and strategic planners are thinking about the future of air combat with a clear intent to fight and win.

Faced with the capabilities of the planned ~700 F-22A (now chopped back to 187) and over 2,000 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, they have been exploring ways of negating the effects of low observability against X-Band radar. The Sukhois have integrated Infra-Red Search and Track Systems (IRST) to detect and engage radiating aircraft with Beyond-Visual-Range (BVR) missiles, and are employing countermeasures resistant two colour Infra-Red (IR) seekers in newer missiles.

What if a fighter aircraft was fitted with a sensor system, which operates outside the radar frequencies where X-band stealth is most effective?

Shaping is a critical aspect of stealth design, since the facets and aligned edges in stealth designs bounce hostile radar returns away from the radar producing them. A stealth design shaped to beat X-band radars will lose effectiveness in the lower S-band, and become even less effective in the L-band, performance becoming progressively worse as the operating band of the radar is moved away from the design target X-band.

If a fighter, which produces a tennis ball sized radar return in the X-band, produces a basketball or beachball sized radar return in a lower band, a sensor operating in that lower band nullifies the stealth capability. The fighter built with “narrowband” X-band stealth is no longer difficult to detect and must fight it out using its aerodynamic capabilities alone.

If a sensor can bypass the stealth of the F-22A Raptor, this fighter still has sufficient aerodynamic performance to compete effectively in both Beyond Visual Range and close combat. The same is not true for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, since it is an overweight and underpowered design, incapable of competing aerodynamically against the newer Flanker variants, and completely outclassed by the latest supercruising Su-35S Flankers.

Dr Carlo Kopp of Air Power Australia explored low band AESAs embedded in fighter wing leading edges in 2007 and concluded that this concept is operationally and technically viable. Study results were not published by APA, due to the potentially adverse impact – APA has a long standing policy of not publishing concepts that might provide potential adversaries with a competitive combat advantage.

However, unbeknownst to APA, Tikhomirov NIIP were already working on this concept for two or more years, and revealed the technology at the Russian MAKS 2009 Airshow this August.

The appearance of the first L-Band Fighter Radar is an excellent example of focused and intelligent lateral thinking which targets opponents' weaknesses. This is sound technological strategy and practice on the part of Russian industry.

The new Tikhomirov NIIP L-band AESA is the first example of a technology which negates the intended X-band stealth advantage well before the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter achieves even limited operational capability.

Drawing on his earlier work, and consulting with other expert colleagues in the field, Dr Kopp has produced a detailed forensic engineering study of the new NIIP L-band AESA and explores the growth potential in the design.

While the NIIP L-Band AESA disclosed at MAKS 2009 might be considered a prototype, where the specific performance of this prototype might confer only a small combat advantage, the inevitable development of this technology confers long term and accelerating air combat advantages, both as a counter to specialized X-Band Low Observability and for the detection and disruption of sensors and digital communications systems that operate in the heavily used L-Band.

No great originality is required to deploy and further evolve this design - the back-end hardware and software from existing X-band radars can be used with modifications, and publicly disclosed US roadmap documents for X-band AESAs can be emulated. The size of the Flanker and its power generation reserves make integration and cooling low risk, easily solved, standard engineering problems.

What of China? Once the idea genie is out of the secret bottle, everybody with similar engineering and design skills can emulate the capability. China is now claimed to have four L-band AESA AWACS flying and the “cloned” J-11B Flanker B+ in production. Thus, it is entirely feasible that a Chinese equivalent L-band AESA in a J-11B could be developed and deployed in 3-5 years. China has existing technology and design skills to do this without great difficulty.

L-Band AESA technology is much cheaper to manufacture and test than X-band AESAs. Once in volume production, retrofit packages for legacy Flankers could be as cheap as US$1-2M. A likely configuration is a dual-band radar arrangement with an X-band AESA retrofit and new radar back-end, to replace legacy N001V and the N011M BARS series Flanker radars. For the new N035 IRBIS-E radar, the hybrid ESA antenna would be replaced by an AESA, and the back-end could control and process for both the L- and X-Band radar antennas. With the potential export market for many hundred units, there is a huge commercial opportunity for Tikhomirov NIIP in the short, medium and long term, once they get this product to market. There will be no shortage of highly interested clientele.

(US DoD Chart)

Stealth - Size Matters


Shaping is the single most powerful tool a stealth designer has to bounce hostile radar beams away in a controlled fashion. In this game, feature size matters. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (above) was shaped to defeat X-band radars and its stealth shaping performs poorly in the 0.24 metre L-band. The larger F-22A (below) with an aligned trapezoidal inlet design and sculpted straight edge nozzles is much less detectable in the L-band (USAF Images).




China already has all of the technologies needed to emulate the Tikhomirov NIIP L-band AESA design, if the Russians opt not to export to China. Above, J-11B SinoFlanker, below L-band AESA on KJ-2000 AWACS (Chinese internet images).

What does this L-Band technology mean in tactical and strategic terms?

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter X-band Stealth. The fundamental shaping design of this aircraft was focused on defeating X-Band fire control radars, the most common threat to battlefield strike fighters. The F-35 JSF in particular relies on front-quarter Low Observabilty to gain an intended ‘first look - first shot - first kill’ Beyond Visual Range (BVR) advantage. If the intake leading edges and nose are visible in the front quarter, then this slim advantage is lost. This is much less of an issue for the F-22A Raptor which was shaped to be effective across a much wider band of radar frequencies than the F-35, as the F-22A was intended from the outset to penetrate deep air defences where L-band radars are common.

Super Hornet and Silent Eagle X-band RCS reduction. Much has been made of the radar cross section reduction of these aircraft, especially in the front-sector. The value of this investment will be diminished markedly as L-Band radar ranges increase.

Impairment of GPS, JTIDS, IFF. These essential navigation, Network Centric communications and fratricide avoidance systems can be adversely affected by L-Band radars being used as interference jammers.

Geolocate on JTIDS. Many extol the advantages bestowed by ‘Network Centricity’. However, if passive L-Band radars in ‘sniffing’ mode detect emissions from JTIDS nodes – or IFF – then the geolocation of these emitters can be performed at long range. This knowledge then confers a combat advantage to those with the L-Band sensors.

The West will find it difficult to jam fighter L-band AESA due to the requirement to build and field L-band jammers with high gain antennas. The NIIP design has huge growth potential in power-aperture, putting Western jammer development into a perpetual “catch-up” mode.

APA has previously commented on the fallacy of defining air combat requirements against 1990s threats, locking-down the specification, and refusing to acknowledge – let alone respond to – developments elsewhere, especially by potential adversaries.

The Joint Strike Fighter program is an example of complete detachment from the operational reality of the world outside the closed minds of the Joint Strike Fighter community - this technology should have been anticipated a decade ago given US development of L-band AESA radars for systems such as the Wedgetail AEW&C/AWACS aircraft. The US development of AESAs in X-band and their use as “multimode apertures” would inevitably be emulated. The Russians are simply applying existing basic technologies developed by the US over a decade ago in a new and lateral application.

Systems where survivability depends almost completely on X-Band radar signature reduction, such as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and F-15SE “Silent Eagle” will now become exposed by fighter-borne L-Band radars, and thus become highly vulnerable to defeat in Beyond Visual Range air combat.

Wing leading edge mounted L-band AESA radars now join the other five demonstrated Russian technologies that, individually, challenge and overmatch key aspects of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter designs while, collectively, now make the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter family of aircraft obsolete well before they have even been operationally fielded. While recent history suggests how the bureaucrats will react to this development, we will have to wait and see exactly how the reality of this “game changer” is explained away.

Simple common sense shows that further development of weapon systems that lack a competitive edge in future air combat cannot be justified and a fundamental ‘re-think’ of future Western air combat planning is required.
 

manutdfan

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
108
Likes
106
Raise the defense budget. The economy continues to grow and all things will pay for themselves.
So it's as simple as that. Just raise the defense budget isn't it? At the expense of social infrastructure in a third world country of 1.2 billion where 1/4th of the population is BPL. Just keep draining money in defense at the expense of education, healthcare, basic infrastructure and agriculture; if that's what you are suggesting?

There's a reason India's defense budget is limited to 2.2% of the total GDP which is just marginally below the internationally accepted limit of 2.5%. That's because we are still a predominantly agrarian-base developing economy and if we follow your brilliant suggestion of further increasing defense spending it would drive us to financial ruin and bankruptcy. As you can see there is no more room for any financial maneuvering and if you still want to turn us into Greece then go ahead why not.

If there's still any iota of doubt in your mind and before you quote me China's expenditure let me clear the air. Pakistan spends close to 3.5% which is above the cutoff and look how its economy's hemorrhaging. China which is the 2nd largest economy in the world does spend around $150 billion but the ratio comes to only 1.2%. China might be an aggressive and unpleasant neighbor but they have got their fundamentals right and they value economic growth & prosperity above everything else.

So long Mr. Expert.
 
Last edited:

Kharavela

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
519
Likes
799
Country flag
I think IAF should order 120 F-35A instead of the Rafale, IN should order 40 F-35B 10 each for its 4 LPDs hopefully the massive Juan Carlos and another 40 for the INS Vishal. A total order of 200.
Ok, agreed. I will order 120 F-35A, 40 F-35B & 40 F-35C
provided you pay the $$ for this purchase.:hippo:
 

spikey360

Crusader
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
3,502
Likes
6,524
Country flag
On a lighter note, India should buy F35s solely for the purpose of being able to write the software for its cannon, which has not been written yet. The famed 'software superpower' of Modi's India should be able to do it. :biggrin2:
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
590
Country flag
Raise the defense budget. The economy continues to grow and all things will pay for themselves.
TELL ME AN ESTIMATE ....
current budget close to 40 billion...
half goes for salaries which is gonna increase due to OROP...
out of remaining half 60% goes to already purchased weapons machinery...

remaining 40% is left for maintenance and buying new weapons....

we have already planned...
100Tejas MK1
~100 FGFA
thats airforce
then we have army and navy....

Army is planning FMBT and navy is planning more subs and not to forget A/c carrier.

then we have LCH and LUH also waiting.

Our defense budget grows by say 10% per annum then also it will be very difficult to meet these how can u think of F35.

Sorry forgot to mention AMCA.....


i just do not understand how can u even suggest f35...
the ally nations are also not happy with the stealth promised and maintenance cost is also high which is not good for our IAF.
 

manutdfan

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
108
Likes
106
Funny thing is the F-35 has turned a lot of internet forumers into over night aviation experts. Its current issues aside....
Hey I'm just an average taxpayer with an above average interest in defense issues who cares about where the taxpayer's money is being spent. I never claimed to be a know all expert. Also I don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise that the F-35 is dead-weight. I just have some basic layman understanding of fighter aircrafts which I think is sufficient for even a civilian like me to point out something that is quite obvious.

Since I am one of those overnight sensation internet forumers who are beneath your holiness I hope you have the capacity to digest my viewpoint, Mr Self Proclaimed Expert.

DAS/AESA/EOTS combined they provide converges for over 1200km away from ground, air and sea based threats
1200km away? The best AWACS are limited to 400km. How on earth is 1200km possible that too for a small fighter aircraft sized radar? Ever heard of the concept of line-of-sight?

Its current prices are lower than the Rafale and the Rafale isn't stealthy
Totally incorrect since F-35 has yet to enter low rate initial production and all the advertised prices till date are future estimates which don't even take into account the engine cost.
Rafale is a stop gap measure meant for arresting our falling squadron strength in a short time frame and will never be the IAF's mainstay fighter. But this doesn't mean that I'm advocating the Rafale over LCA & PAK FA.

A couple of F-35s can effectively cover entire sections of Pak with such coverage
Well actually it would take more than a couple but technically it's possible. But that's not the point.
If India does end up acquiring the F-35 wouldn't USA equip Pakistan with the same to maintain parity? In that case all the hypothetical technological advantage comes to naught. Not to mention the Chinese J-31 and J-20 which will definitely end up in Pakistani inventory as a reactionary measure.

Conversely if India stays on course with PAK FA & AMCA, Pakistan might still end up getting the inferior J-31 but definitely not the more capable J-20. Also USA would have no concrete reason to sell F-35 to Pakistan and risk upsetting India.

Funny they say stealth is over-rated but every air craft in development today has focus on minimizing rcs. Stealth isn't supposed to make it invulnerable, its meant to make you harder to find.
Hey I said stealth is over-rated not that is unnecessary. Stealth is desirable but not at the expense of maneuverability/agility of which the same cannot be said for the F-35. Neither does it have full aspect stealth lof the F-22 Raptor nor the super-maneuverability of the Su-30MKI.
So when I say that it's just a bombtruck with above average sensors what's not to understand? If existing systems and under development indigenous platforms can provide similar or possibly superior capability at a fraction of the cost why is it so difficult to comprehend that F-35 is ill suited to our operational requirements as well as budget?
Also refer @Bahamut's 3 excellent posts #52 #53 & #54 where detailed technical analysis is given as to why the F-35's so called stealth at the expense of maneuverability/agility is ultimately useless. Let's hear your arguments against those.

No we won't get TOT, but with a big enough buy, we can have local assembly with plenty of non critical parts being made in India.
Large numbers, no ToT, non critical spares? Who in their right mind could possibly advocate this? End of day do you want India to become America's client state?
Any banana republic can design a fighter, BVR missiles and with some effort and lots of money even a decent AESA radar. But what any banana republic cannot do is design an engine. Fighter jet engine technology is probably the most exclusive piece of technology on earth. Even more exclusive than nuclear technology. There are about a dozen plus nations that can produce a nuclear weapon but there are only 4 countries on earth who can design and produce a state-of-the-art fighter engine- USA, Russia, Britain & France. And India is simply pathetic when it comes to engines. LCA Tejas like our first indigenous fighter HF-24 Marut is plagued by the same engine problems and unless the Kaveri engine is sorted out the AMCA program is doomed too. And it is in this context that I find the technological benefit from F-35 argument utterly pointless.
Since Independence India has successfully operated even locally produced a number of Russian and European fighters such as MiG-21, MiG-27, Folland Gnat, SEPECAT Jaguars and most recently Su-30MKI.
Even after 6 decades when we haven't been able to produce an original engine or an improvement on a foreign-origin design much less a carbon copy what makes you think we can do that now especially from the technology obtained from the 'cloak n dagger' Americans?
Had you read my previous post carefully I had made it amply clear that it's fighter jet engine technology that's the prized catch not becoming a service center. Hub for non critical spares? Non critical as in what- waste management systems, canopy glass or landing gears? And how do such trivial items benefit India's technological & manufacturing base?

Furthermore, it is the easiest fighter ever made to fly with the best of situational awareness, so the pilot can actually focus on the fight, having a bigger focus on the fight can allow the pilot to be a lot more effective.

In this day and age, when a Brazilian F-4 can effectively kill a high and mighty Rafale in a simulated dogfight, anything can happen, the Mig-21 Bison ran circles around the F-5/F-16 some years ago. Dogfighting is all about pilot skills, now if the pilot is more focused on the fight, he will have the advantages hands down. The F-35 will have a big advantage.
This is all typical company marketing literature.
Fact- F-35 has the worst cockpit visibility. What situational awareness are we talking about when the cockpit itself prevents our naked eyes from doing its very basic job? Dogfighting is all about keeping the enemy in your sights. Lose sight, lose the fight. If the cockpit blocks the pilot's all round vision what dogfighting advantage is being referred to?

Also what's with this contradictory statement? You extensively cite Lockheed Martin marketing literature, write an entire post explaining how F-35 would be a stealthy sensor avoiding head on confrontation instead preferring to launch sneak BVR attacks. And now all of a sudden F-35 becomes a world class dogfighter? F-35 is too poorly designed and too heavy to ever effectively dogfight. And since it's ultimately down to pilot skill who's to say that in capable hands a MiG-21Bison won't beat the F-35 10 out of 10 in every possible dogfight scenario.

F-35 cockpit ergonomics and sensor fusion will definitely be next gen but the same can be adapted to our existing fighter fleet. Just because your minivan has a fancy dashboard with expensive upholstery doesn't mean that it's better than my bare essentials sports car.

All I can say is that most arguments in favor of the F-35 is a blatant manipulation of facts when convenient. Looks like the gimmicks were from the other end all this while. Also better lose the condescending attitude.
 
Last edited:

Zebra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
6,060
Likes
2,303
Country flag
....

~100 FGFA
thats airforce

then we have army and navy....

i just do not understand how can u even suggest f35...
the ally nations are also not happy with the stealth promised and maintenance cost is also high which is not good for our IAF.

Even IAF is not happy with FGFA's so-called thing like promised stealth and each and every Russian platform always has issues of high maintenance cost and that is also not good for our IAF .

What about that.....!

And one question..... can India get S-500 at the same time when Russians forces gets it .....?



 
Last edited:

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top