IAF Mirage 2000

[Bhurki]

....................................................

 

[Bhurki]

A much better deal than any of these would be to replace turkey in its f35a order of 100 planes. Along would come the workshare agreements that turkey had to produce some components for the jet.
That'll be a real silver bullet.

F - 35 is a single engine machine.. dude No dilemma there

Its kind of a sin to compare f414 to f135. There's atleast 2 decades of development between those two.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

India doesn't have infrastructure to contain F-16.

F-16V fighters to Bulgaria, stands at $1.67 billion for eight fighters in addition to a broad range of sensors, weapons, training devices, software, training, support, and spares. Since Bulgarian air force is predominately made of Russian Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, lack of exposure will mean an additional need for infrastructure, local tools, spares training of manpower and factored in for Indian deal then the whole ecosystem to operate F-21 fleet by IAF will be close to $24 billion.

Indian airforce is not running this competition for getting cheapest deal it's much more than that F-16 cannot give india biggest strategic edge which rafale can give politically and with it's meteor missile and best in class availability sortie rate and India's in hand experience with previous French jets.

If you want to get cheapest get 112 mig - 35 for 12 billion $

 

[Flying Dagger]

A much better deal than any of these would be to replace turkey in its f35a order of 100 planes. Along would come the workshare agreements that turkey had to produce some components for the jet.
That'll be a real silver bullet.

Its kind of a sin to compare f414 to f135. There's atleast 2 decades of development between those two.

No, F 414 have a past record of reliability on its side that's why we chose it over other available option for Tejas.

Bhai F 35 is the same dreamland i was referring to and closer to the kill switch scenario you were referring to.

With F 18 itself there would be so many restrictions and Turkey was banned due to the same S 400 that we have bought.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

F 18 itself there would be so many restrictions and Turkey was banned due to the same S 400 that we have bought.

India was never offered with growler variant of F-18.
Without that electronic warfare suit that jet is incomplete. Because it's speed maneuverability celling height everything is low under powered engines.
Electronic warfare is biggest edge of that jet and india was not offered with that.

 

[Flying Dagger]

India doesn't have infrastructure to contain F-16.

F-16V fighters to Bulgaria, stands at $1.67 billion for eight fighters in addition to a broad range of sensors, weapons, training devices, software, training, support, and spares. Since Bulgarian air force is predominately made of Russian Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29, lack of exposure will mean an additional need for infrastructure, local tools, spares training of manpower and factored in for Indian deal then the whole ecosystem to operate F-21 fleet by IAF will be close to $24 billion.

Indian airforce is not running this competition for getting cheapest deal it's much more than that F-16 cannot give india biggest strategic edge which rafale can give politically and with it's meteor missile and best in class availability sortie rate and India's in hand experience with previous French jets.

If you want to get cheapest get 112 mig - 35 for 12 billion $

Lol True bro and we haven't factored in complete set of new missiles and other weapon cost yet. It will be humongous

and yes Rafale is actually the push we thought we will get for our AMCA project after we pulled our hand out from Su 57/FGFA.

Those who have been worried over the timeline being extended for AMCA from the previous rumoured 2025-27 to 2032 -35 the reason is fall of MMRCA and it's offset which we thought will help to build our pvt. aerospace sector.

India was never offered with growler variant of F-18.
Without that electronic warfare suit that jet is incomplete. Because it's speed maneuverability celling height everything is low under powered engines.
Electronic warfare is biggest edge of that jet and india was not offered with that.

Actually a lite version is on offer if we choose F 18.

 

[Bhurki]

A much better deal than any of these would be to replace turkey in its f35a order of 100 planes. Along would come the workshare agreements that turkey had to produce some components for the jet.
That'll be a real silver bullet.

The price of F-35A has come down to $78M.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...d-deal-f-35-prices-fall-to-78-million-a-copy/
The fresh price tag has come a year earlier than expected. The deal includes 478 F-35s for U.S. and international customers across lots 12, 13 and 14.
Comparing that to a 'barebones' rafale cost of $101.5M(Eur91.75M)
paid in the IGA agreement between India and France.
Its crazy a 5th gen stealth aircraft is being manufactured cheaper than a non stealth one.

 

[Armand2REP]

The price of F-35A has come down to $78M.

The current price is $89 million for the cheapest model. The 2020 price is dropped to $82.4 million. It is a far cry from $60 million F-16 replacement it was expected to be and any further complications could increase pricing again. In the context of India it isn't worth mentioning as they will never buy it as it would cannabalise AMCA.

 

[Wisemarko]

The price of F-35A has come down to $78M.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...d-deal-f-35-prices-fall-to-78-million-a-copy/
The fresh price tag has come a year earlier than expected. The deal includes 478 F-35s for U.S. and international customers across lots 12, 13 and 14.
Comparing that to a 'barebones' rafale cost of $101.5M(Eur91.75M)
paid in the IGA agreement between India and France.
Its crazy a 5th gen stealth aircraft is being manufactured cheaper than a non stealth one.

You are correct: the goal acquisition price is $75 million (adjusting for inflation). Which, considering all the troubles developers had to go through, is an awesome price for 5th generation technology. The main reason is economies of scale. Overall plan is to produce 3100 F-35 by 2035. No other aircraft can match this scale and cost saving that comes with that.

Even F-18 E/F are being sold to USN at only $51 million today. The plane is also on offer to India at the same price plus infrastructure/training/ weapons. (https://news.usni.org/2019/03/21/42021)

 

[Bhurki]

The current price is $89 million for the cheapest model. The 2020 price is dropped to $82.4 million. It is a far cry from $60 million F-16 replacement it was expected to be and any further complications could increase pricing again.

My point was that its considerably cheaper than rafale even while being in heavier weight class ( 70k vs 55k lbs) and being VLO. Multiple systems like EOTS, advanced jammer that were paid for as 'extra'/ ISE for the IAF Rafale over the Eur92m 'barebones' price are already integrated in the F35A.

 

[Bhurki]

In the context of India it isn't worth mentioning as they will never buy it as it would cannabalise AMCA

Japan tried to go independent with X2 stealth jet with all the subsystems to be designed in house and validated for combat use. They even had their own engine. But didn't put into production because they deemed r&d and acquisition costs too high for a limited run of jets.
If india wants AMCA to be economically feasible, they'll have to commit to it in large numbers, or they'll end up paying twice for it as compared to f35

 

[Bhurki]

Even F-18 E/F are being sold to USN at only $51 million today. The plane is also on offer to India at the same price plus infrastructure/training/ weapons.

Whats up with these throw away prices?
$51M can threaten tejas Mk2.

 

[Armand2REP]

Japan tried to go independent with X2 stealth jet with all the subsystems to be designed in house and validated for combat use. They even had their own engine. But didn't put into production because they deemed r&d and acquisition costs too high for a limited run of jets.
If india wants AMCA to be economically feasible, they'll have to commit to it in large numbers, or they'll end up paying twice for it as compared to f35

That just shows why India won't buy it. If you commit to the F-35 you have given up any real hope of developing your own fighter. Both the UK and Italy have blown their budgets on F-35 which makes Tempest DOA.

 

[Wisemarko]

Whats up with these throw away prices?
$51M can threaten tejas Mk2.

Yup.. Surprised? Once infrastructure is in place, only marginal costs matter. For large production base in US, this is common sense. One big reason India should leverage US defense access.

 

[BON PLAN]

You are correct: the goal acquisition price is $75 million (adjusting for inflation). Which, considering all the troubles developers had to go through, is an awesome price for 5th generation technology. The main reason is economies of scale. Overall plan is to produce 3100 F-35 by 2035. No other aircraft can match this scale and cost saving that comes with that.

Even F-18 E/F are being sold to USN at only $51 million today. The plane is also on offer to India at the same price plus infrastructure/training/ weapons. (https://news.usni.org/2019/03/21/42021)

where do you see a 5th truly gen fighter here (according to own LM definitions) ?
Stealth : OK
Affordable : NON OK (target was 60 $ million)
F16 like agile : NON OK
Sensor fusion : OK
Supercruise able : NON OK

The sole 5th gen is F22. F35 is a air to ground tactical fighter marketingly modifyed by LM so as to cope the F16 replacement market.

 

[BON PLAN]

My point was that its considerably cheaper than rafale even while being in heavier weight class ( 70k vs 55k lbs) and being VLO. Multiple systems like EOTS, advanced jammer that were paid for as 'extra'/ ISE for the IAF Rafale over the Eur92m 'barebones' price are already integrated in the F35A.

EOTS doesn't work as intended : show less capacity than a Sniper pod and difficulties in following moving targets. A new model is on study.
F35 radar show some flaws during the swiss trials in the alps (don't like mountains...)

Just wait the swiss decision.

 

[BON PLAN]

Even F-18 E/F are being sold to USN at only $51 million today. The plane is also on offer to India at the same price plus infrastructure/training/ weapons. (https://news.usni.org/2019/03/21/42021)

As every time with the US : are the engines integrated in that price?
Too cheap to be true. If not, why SH18 was so few exported ?

 

[Bhurki]

where do you see a 5th truly gen fighter here (according to own LM definitions) ?
Stealth : OK
Affordable : NON OK (target was 60 $ million)
F16 like agile : NON OK
Sensor fusion : OK
Supercruise able : NON OK

The sole 5th gen is F22. F35 is a air to ground tactical fighter marketingly modifyed by LM so as to cope the F16 replacement market.

USAF is literally the largest AF on earth for quite some time now.. And so they also have the most amount of flying hours to pull data from. If they consider its ok to trade supercruise and some agility to get what they are getting as a sensor integrator VLO is worth it, then i dont think any of us can make a more informed decision than that.
Consider the engagements from ww2 to now, how many jets were lost to dogfight as opposed to long range fire?
In terms of price, affordability can be defined only relative to a plane of comparable capability. Here it far outruns rafale by providing a VLO platform with a higher range and same combat load with configurable attack capacity ( stealth vs 'beast' mode) at a much more affordable.price.

 

[Bhurki]

EOTS doesn't work as intended : show less capacity than a Sniper pod and difficulties in following moving targets. A new model is on study.
F35 radar show some flaws during the swiss trials in the alps (don't like mountains...)

Just wait the swiss decision.

LM has already presented the A-EOTS, with significant more capabilities. Besides being the most well funded program, and having same probability of success as others. it is not hard to understand that F35 will end up having one of the most balanced EW and remote sensors of any platform.
Swiss decision is pretty much inconsequential with a total of only 40 jets.
Japan, UK and SoKo have already planned to extend their acquisition by more than twice that number combined.

 

[BON PLAN]

USAF is literally the largest AF on earth for quite some time now.. And so they also have the most amount of flying hours to pull data from. If they consider its ok to trade supercruise and some agility to get what they are getting as a sensor integrator VLO is worth it, then i dont think any of us can make a more informed decision than that.
Consider the engagements from ww2 to now, how many jets were lost to dogfight as opposed to long range fire?
In terms of price, affordability can be defined only relative to a plane of comparable capability. Here it far outruns rafale by providing a VLO platform with a higher range and same combat load with configurable attack capacity ( stealth vs 'beast' mode) at a much more affordable.price.

I agree.
But the LM definition of 5th generation, applied to F35, show that's it's not a 5th gen.
It's a stealthy tactical air to ground fighter, with some Air to Air capacity.

You will see when Switzerland will make its choice. F35 will not be that one, because not enough potent in air to air missions, the core of the swiss requirements.