IAF MiG-21 shoots down Pakistani F-16

Killbot

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This nation will always be proud of its Abhimanyus who knew they will never return but still went in to teach enemy a lesson. Winning Information war after losing militarily is an insult that is enjoyed by cowards.
Be the cowards as they may, it doesn't change the fact that they did win the information war. And we lost. We gotta up our game henceforth
 

hit&run

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Be the cowards as they may, it doesn't change the fact that they did win the information war. And we lost. We gotta up our game henceforth
With these kind of simplistic views and defeatist fanboy comments no upping the game will be enough to satiate your likes.
 

Killbot

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With these kind of simplistic views and defeatist fanboy comments no upping the game will be enough to satiate your likes.
Whoa, slow down sir.

And welcome to the 21st century and 5th generation warfare. Information warfare is important for public opinion when an actual war breaks out. For recruiting, morale, preventing unrest, etc locally. If anyone has simplistic views, it is you, with all due respect.

Abhimanyus need to be glorified and celebrated. That is one of the objectives of hybrid warfare. The majority of the population needs 'satiating'. I'm making a defeatist comment because we were defeated in the information warfare front. That is a fact.

Concept of cowardice and honor is all but gone from the general populace.
 

hit&run

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Those who can not handle simple propaganda and suffer periodic meltdowns are no way going to help with any so called information war.

Pakistan raided just the border CP and ran away. Just this Pakistan propaganda that we have avenged Balakot would have been hard for Indians sorry for everything SFEs citizens to handle.

Not to mention how those media pimps started to support Pakistani nerrative. Just today a tweet by an ex Army thug Shawney or whatever his name made rants in Pakistan’s favour.

Is your propaganda victory going to be defined by telling Indian soldiers not to take their chances and treat all their weapon systems as just ornaments?

How the hell you will up your game after your raider is caught and shown on TV? Aren’t KIAs, MIAs and captures part and parcel of the military expeditions?

Please keep your disjointed fantasies with yourself. These are not video games we are playing here. We here at DFI took on foreign forum who would wrote our obituaries everyday. Many refused us and deplateformed us after 26/11.

We are at DFI have been slapping all juvenile melt downs back into their sense for many years. We know how you will behave at acute situations.

Please go to NDTV and twitter and be depressed and miserable reading their shoddy punchlines and memes.

Please keep this place free for serious discussions.

Our military objective was to avenge Pulwama but target we chose was an old tracked and bugged(HUMNIT) major terrorist training camp. Ask any geniune military affairs watcher if he treats terror attacks tactical or strategic?

Pakistani strategic strikes of Pulwama was avenged by Balakot strategic strikes with an aim of wiping out their most experienced terror training assets and leaders.

The mission was successful. The military objective which was assigned, simulated and blue printed ages ago was completed using the backdrop of Pulwama. What happened after that has no meaning whatsoever in military terms but just a tactical skirmish which we had no intention to escalate.

Only fools played it in a loop and many like me had to jump in to discipline the fish market brawl.

Who told you that all military skirmishes of tactical significance must be escalated to bigger military confrontation?

Military objective was achieved, Pakistan was slapped so hard that they were reduced to only moan, cry and lie.

What we did after that? Any guesses? The militancy in Kashmir was reduced to all time low. What else? We aligned the Jammu and Kashmir with our union completely by removing the section 370 and 35A. Bifurcated the state without any Pakistani interference which is generally more terrorism.

Now come debate with me and let me teach how to read things in right perspective.
 
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hit&run

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Whoa, slow down sir.

And welcome to the 21st century and 5th generation warfare. Information warfare is important for public opinion when an actual war breaks out. For recruiting, morale, preventing unrest, etc locally. If anyone has simplistic views, it is you, with all due respect.

Abhimanyus need to be glorified and celebrated. That is one of the objectives of hybrid warfare. The majority of the population needs 'satiating'. I'm making a defeatist comment because we were defeated in the information warfare front. That is a fact.

Concept of cowardice and honor is all but gone from the general populace.
I disagree with everything you have said. Please except my disagreement. Regards.
 

hit&run

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There are no perfect military victories when two nations at par fights.

Propaganda and information wars have been happening even when people used to fight with stones and spears. Just because now messages are conveyed at faster speeds someone has to first start lying like Pakistan and then hide behind more lies?

The defeatist Indian psyche will never find a good deal in any confrontation. Our standards of victory are tied with this unwavering quest of eternal peace. Anything which disturbs us from that peace and tranquility is a failure for us. No wonder every foreign invader is celebrated in India and every resistance is seen as futile.

This hindsight talk of improving and learning is just the reflection of same physiological defeat which we accept at the very start.
 
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mist_consecutive

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Mig 21 Bis doesn't have SDRs. He was asked to go cold but comms were jammed and it wasn't communicated. It was more of tech issue.
Pssst! Wanna know a secret?
There was no comm. jamming that day. ATC recorded Wing Cdr. Abhinandan's Fox 2 call as well as his confirmation after the missile found its target. The comm. jamming theory was first propagated by the Pakistani side (few hotshots of PDFs) and was quickly picked up by the Indian side as well because it suited the narrative of both sides.

abhinandan took his chances, nothing wrong in that.

Pak military need not be underestimated, they are neither unprofessional nor amateurs. They punch way above their weight.

if paki army was bad at their job, we wouldn’t be having thousands of pages discussing them.
Disagree. Now since it's 2 years past the incident, I am free to voice my thoughts.

It's widely known in IAF circles that what Abhinandan did was foolish, "Josh aa gaya tha", is how it is described.

What actually happened?
Abhinandan gave a chase to ingressing F-16s because he saw a sure-shot kill. An AMRAAM was launched at his wingman who stopped following Abhinandan and returned back. Now, according to IAF doctrine, one SPJ (Elta-8222) is carried by each pair, which that day was with his wingman.
Anyway, when Abhinandan approached LoC he was warned multiple times to return back by ATC, but he ignored them and kept on chasing. The sudden dash towards F-16s was completely unexpected and sent the attacking F-16s formation into a panic. Meanwhile, Abhinandan got a good shot on an F-16 and quickly turned back, but he was too deep within enemy lines and was well within NEZ of AMRAAM, and without SPJ he had absolutely zero chance of escaping.
Why were his actions un-pardonable ?
He lost his cool, he broke SoP, he refused to obey the ground operators, and he took an outrageous risk. His actions lead to a severe compromise of Indian interests.
If Abhinandan was not captured, it would have given us the perfect excuse to counter-attack without any repercussions. But his capture completely changed the narrative and our primary motive became "rescuing lost pilot", rather than continuing offensive.

It's still beyond me why couldn't the IAF spruce up their arsenal, especially as PAF's AIM missiles with 90-100 km was a known fact! What stopped our IAF from fitting our aircrafts with 100+ km A2A missiles which could have complete altered this air battle in our favour!
In my layman opinion, it's a terrible and unpardonable lapse at IAF's end!!
You cannot always have missile-to-missile, bullet-to-bullet parity, and if we are going for that, we are doing it wrong.
It's not that we do not have BVRs, we got R77s (around 20 km shorter range than AMRAAM) and R27s (around the same range as AMRAAM), we have our own strategies in place with our missiles.
However, PAF getting AMRAAM C5s in 2010 should have ranged a bell in IAF HQs, but traitorous congress govt. chose to delay us buying Rafale.

Be the cowards as they may, it doesn't change the fact that they did win the information war. And we lost. We gotta up our game henceforth
Shit happens. We were unlucky that day, multiple mishaps made us look weak and panicked. We, however, won the information war of Galwan clash, as well as the whole Indo-China standoff of Ladakh.
 

Poseidon

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It's still beyond me why couldn't the IAF spruce up their arsenal, especially as PAF's AIM missiles with 90-100 km was a known fact! What stopped our IAF from fitting our aircrafts with 100+ km A2A missiles which could have complete altered this air battle in our favour!
In my layman opinion, it's a terrible and unpardonable lapse at IAF's end!!
I think i read a tweet today that no missiles superior to AIM-120C used by Pakis was available to India as Russian R-77-1 and Israeli I-Derby+ER was not ready for service yet
 

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Pssst! Wanna know a secret?
There was no comm. jamming that day. ATC recorded Wing Cdr. Abhinandan's Fox 2 call as well as his confirmation after the missile found its target. The comm. jamming theory was first propagated by the Pakistani side (few hotshots of PDFs) and was quickly picked up by the Indian side as well because it suited the narrative of both sides.



Disagree. Now since it's 2 years past the incident, I am free to voice my thoughts.

It's widely known in IAF circles that what Abhinandan did was foolish, "Josh aa gaya tha", is how it is described.

What actually happened?


Why were his actions un-pardonable ?



If Abhinandan was not captured, it would have given us the perfect excuse to counter-attack without any repercussions. But his capture completely changed the narrative and our primary motive became "rescuing lost pilot", rather than continuing offensive.



You cannot always have missile-to-missile, bullet-to-bullet parity, and if we are going for that, we are doing it wrong.
It's not that we do not have BVRs, we got R77s (around 20 km shorter range than AMRAAM) and R27s (around the same range as AMRAAM), we have our own strategies in place with our missiles.
However, PAF getting AMRAAM C5s in 2010 should have ranged a bell in IAF HQs, but traitorous congress govt. chose to delay us buying Rafale.



Shit happens. We were unlucky that day, multiple mishaps made us look weak and panicked. We, however, won the information war of Galwan clash, as well as the whole Indo-China standoff of Ladakh.

Agree with your point that's it's always not possible/practical to achieve parity, but what stopped IAF from doing a fast-track order of some latest variants of longer range R77s or other compatible A2A missiles for ATLEAST SOME of our Sukhois n Mig-21s (if the radar supported), from 2014 onwards?
I agree that we can only speculate over this, but we must still somehow accept that this kind of a situation could have been avoided, had the IAF not made itself handicapped in the A2A missile department.
And considering that we are now facing a 2-front war in the future, we MUST not let atleast the Porkis get any edge over us in such crucial aspects of warfare.
 

Ghost hale

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Pssst! Wanna know a secret?
There was no comm. jamming that day. ATC recorded Wing Cdr. Abhinandan's Fox 2 call as well as his confirmation after the missile found its target. The comm. jamming theory was first propagated by the Pakistani side (few hotshots of PDFs) and was quickly picked up by the Indian side as well because it suited the narrative of both sides.
The theory u mentioned should have resulted in severe action as well as even suspension as direct chain of command was broken which is not as simple in IAF as u band i ignoring to listen. Instead he joined squad in 6 months and started flying. So urs seems like more of the story floated by someone maybe u. ATC recorded is oust by IAF? I don't think so. So ignore all theories if u want to ignore one because all r true till u have concrete proof on any particular one.
 

Rassil Krishnan

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The theory u mentioned should have resulted in severe action as well as even suspension as direct chain of command was broken which is not as simple in IAF as u band i ignoring to listen. Instead he joined squad in 6 months and started flying. So urs seems like more of the story floated by someone maybe u. ATC recorded is oust by IAF? I don't think so. So ignore all theories if u want to ignore one because all r true till u have concrete proof on any particular one.
ATC saying she heard abhinandan while he targeted pak f16 was shown in video that was released by air force.
 

mist_consecutive

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Agree with your point that's it's always not possible/practical to achieve parity, but what stopped IAF from doing a fast-track order of some latest variants of longer range R77s or other compatible A2A missiles for ATLEAST SOME of our Sukhois n Mig-21s (if the radar supported), from 2014 onwards?
I agree that we can only speculate over this, but we must still somehow accept that this kind of a situation could have been avoided, had the IAF not made itself handicapped in the A2A missile department.
And considering that we are now facing a 2-front war in the future, we MUST not let atleast the Porkis get any edge over us in such crucial aspects of warfare.
Russia is actually piss poor in BVR technology, as their own A2A doctrine revolves around WVR combat, they never paid attention to developing long-range BVR missiles.
I believe R77-1 was not yet ready in 2014. But as I said, if I have a 100 km missile, while my adversary has a 110 km missile, it does not mean I am on losing ground. Each type of missile has its own characteristics and hence strategies & use cases are developed around them.
For example, R77 is a draggy missile that is more maneuverable, best effective within 50km range. You can take excellent 30-50km shots (just outside WVR range) with high success rates.

The theory u mentioned should have resulted in severe action as well as even suspension as direct chain of command was broken which is not as simple in IAF as u band i ignoring to listen. Instead he joined squad in 6 months and started flying. So urs seems like more of the story floated by someone maybe u. ATC recorded is oust by IAF? I don't think so. So ignore all theories if u want to ignore one because all r true till u have concrete proof on any particular one.
No, not only he joined the squadron, but he was also awarded the third-highest gallantry. Now I am not going to explain why he was made a hero to the public, even though what he committed was court-marshal worthy.

But, just for a reference in future whether I fabricated the narrative, keep a tab on his promotions. Aces like him generally climb very high (at least AVM, or best, ACM). He won't climb higher than AC.
 

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No, not only he joined the squadron, but he was also awarded the third-highest gallantry. Now I am not going to explain why he was made a hero to the public, even though what he committed was court-marshal worthy.

But, just for a reference in future whether I fabricated the narrative, keep a tab on his promotions. Aces like him generally climb very high (at least AVM, or best, ACM). He won't climb higher than AC.
Absolutely agree on this. If what u said is correct then it surely court marshal worthy. That kind of sort sightedness is not expected with kind of standard IAF is seen to have and only because of this i think ur theory is not correct.
 

hit&run

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At one instance you celebrate him killing ace PAF fighter jet and on other instance you call him stupid for crossing the LoC. You can not kill F-16 without crossing the LOC. And crossing the LOC comes with all the risks of becoming a prey and getting shot at as well.

It very strange to see Indians talking about fighting a very clinical Air warfare like Americans do after establishing air dominance but ignore that we do not have such luxaries. Even funnier to ask Pilots to wait because any attrition following doctrine of raid and ingress under heavy AD environment which we are trained to operate will be bad for information war. They must wait till Rafale or more potent jets are inducted.

The fundamental rule of requiring judgement in authoritative application is always practised by all the branches. The forces do not work like corporates and follow directives in every case.
Soldiers are trained to disobey the orders. General JFR Jacob never had the approval of capturing whole of East Pakistan. He disagreed and implemented his plan ‘War of Movement’ and went ahead to capture Dhaka. Things could have gone easily wrong but he took his chances.

General Jacob never became COAS or Field Marshal, no ace Pilot has always or all time superseded his seniors to secure more important posts. There is no need to diss your soldiers who do their duty with given resources and challenge the enemies.

Saying WC Abhinandan jeapordised the further escalation after that tactical skirmish is again a misreading of the events.

India made it very clear after Balakot that those were non-military stikes and we have no further desire to escalate it further. We have been always operating under international pressure to not escalate. Even after Pakistani raid on border CP we stated categorically that it will be avenged at the time and place of our choosing. The air traffic was restored within hours.

Do not impose your winning the information war on forces because it will make you look happy on social media. At the end of the day It is just bloody spin and you need to grow more brain cells to give one.
 

prasadr14

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People here are thinking that GOI would have gone to war or escalated if Abhi was not captured.....

Why would GOI escalate? Cause Pakis dropped some bombs in fields from their own air space?
We did not escalate when they did much worse.

In fact if Pakis would not have returned Abhi, we would have gone to war.

That we threatened and Pakis blinked tells you a whole different story of the balls of momeens..
 

Ghost hale

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At one instance you celebrate him killing ace PAF fighter jet and on other instance you call him stupid for crossing the LoC. You can not kill F-16 without crossing the LOC. And crossing the LOC comes with all the risks of becoming a prey and getting shot at as well.

It very strange to see Indians talking about fighting a very clinical Air warfare like Americans do after establishing air dominance but ignore that we do not have such luxaries. Even funnier to ask Pilots to wait because any attrition following doctrine of raid and ingress under heavy AD environment which we are trained to operate will be bad for information war. They must wait till Rafale or more potent jets are inducted.

The fundamental rule of requiring judgement in authoritative application is always practised by all the branches. The forces do not work like corporates and follow directives in every case.
Soldiers are trained to disobey the orders. General JFR Jacob never had the approval of capturing whole of East Pakistan. He disagreed and implemented his plan ‘War of Movement’ and went ahead to capture Dhaka. Things could have gone easily wrong but he took his chances.

General Jacob never became COAS or Field Marshal, no ace Pilot has always or all time superseded his seniors to secure more important posts. There is no need to diss your soldiers who do their duty with given resources and challenge the enemies.

Saying WC Abhinandan jeapordised the further escalation after that tactical skirmish is again a misreading of the events.

India made it very clear after Balakot that those were non-military stikes and we have no further desire to escalate it further. We have been always operating under international pressure to not escalate. Even after Pakistani raid on border CP we stated categorically that it will be avenged at the time and place of our choosing. The air traffic was restored within hours.

Do not impose your winning the information war on forces because it will make you look happy on social media. At the end of the day It is just bloody spin and you need to grow more brain cells to give one.
A lot of assumptions here. U said generally so i m specifying my position. What all u said is the things that happen and u have stated obvious like fog of war makes things and decision making blur, need to choose to engage or not, follow rule or not etc. Everything is true. Armed forces set some standards and everyone is judged on basis of that. Many times it will be achieved and many times it won't. In this case for sure if he would have scored the hit and came back again it would have been said that it calls directly for court marshal but narrative would have favoured him even his decision making would have been applauded. But when he failed same risk goes against also. U can't always take risk and if it paves u take glory and if not u play with atleast well tried. U will see consequences too. Pointing that out is not wrong.
We don't know excatly what happened and nobody said wait for rafale and all, Its just the scenarion being discussed that if direct chain of command is broken and ur risk doesn't result u should be prepared to take bad side of risk taking too. It happens in all the fields. Its just normally armed forced are set on higher standards then others so are praised and criticized more. And in fog of war incidents happen but repercussions also have to be taken by ones taking risk.
 

hit&run

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A lot of assumptions here. U said generally so i m specifying my position. What all u said is the things that happen and u have stated obvious like fog of war makes things and decision making blur, need to choose to engage or not, follow rule or not etc. Everything is true. Armed forces set some standards and everyone is judged on basis of that. Many times it will be achieved and many times it won't. In this case for sure if he would have scored the hit and came back again it would have been said that it calls directly for court marshal but narrative would have favoured him even his decision making would have been applauded. But when he failed same risk goes against also. U can't always take risk and if it paves u take glory and if not u play with atleast well tried. U will see consequences too. Pointing that out is not wrong.
We don't know excatly what happened and nobody said wait for rafale and all, Its just the scenarion being discussed that if direct chain of command is broken and ur risk doesn't result u should be prepared to take bad side of risk taking too. It happens in all the fields. Its just normally armed forced are set on higher standards then others so are praised and criticized more. And in fog of war incidents happen but repercussions also have to be taken by ones taking risk.
You are flipping on both side while admitting not privy to correct information. If Inducting him back into services can be done for sake of good optics then making him the fall guy can also be done to hide so called failures.

Everything you add in your argument in this case availability of Rafale is to help strengthen your main argument. Better not add unnecessary weight when writing and make illogical assertion given Rafale has totally diffrent roles than first respondent Jets for quick scrambling and intercepts.

What we are taking here is a dog fight which resulted in score on both the sides. Just keep it simple like that.
 

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