Hypersonic Missiles

Shashank Nayak

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there was no official info that it has been successful either, A2 night launch in mid november was declared a success.
Yup.. There would have been a statement like "The missile followed the intended trajectory and was monitored by surveillance vessels along the path", if the test was successful. Also, likely the source is internal...
 
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Shashank Nayak

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there was no official info that it has been successful either, A2 night launch in mid november was declared a success.
Yup.. There would have been a statement like "The missile followed the intended trajectory and was monitored by surveillance vessels along the path", if the test was successful. Also, likely the source is internal...
 

Chinmoy

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It is not a surprise that you have a failed missile test, generally P5 have 20-35% failure rate. The real issue here is: how come it was the first night trial of this missile after 10 years since it was deployed.
Remember when I once said that even in deployed state all our missiles are in developmental phase and with each and every tests we do test one component or other?

Composite motor was first tested in A$, if I am not wrong, and now all of A series does use composite motor.
Maraging steel was first used in A3 but now even P series is using it.
Same with sensors. It was INS all the way till A4, but with A5 we started using 3GOM. Same is going into all models of A and P series.

So this time around we were testing the same in A3 which malfunctioned in most probability.

As for what led us to wait for a decade to test it. Well we had conducted night trials of SRBM and CM in past, but as you might be aware, test is not just about firing. It also about tracking. We have only recently came up with assets to conduct long range night time trials. So the maiden test of A2 and A3 are happening now.
 

Bhurki

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Would it not be partial success if you hit Shanghai nstead of the target Beijing?o_O
Nice pun but highly improbable. If second stage goes wrong targeting mainland, its more likely( infact considering today's failure of 150 km, its certain) to fall on India, bangladesh or myanmar than china.
 
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Deathstar

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Nice pun but highly improbable. If second stage goes wrong targeting mainland, its more likely( infact considering today's failure of 150 km, its certain) to fall on India, bangladesh or myanmar than china.
Every system undergoes failure , nothing unusual in that. If tests are carried out after some tweaks or mods , we can expect failures.
Such failures will only help avoid it in future.
Anyways there's absolutely no evidence that proves the test failed /succeeded or only partial success......speculating based on one report in a single newspaper....
 

Bhurki

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Every system undergoes failure , nothing unusual in that. If tests are carried out after some tweaks or mods , we can expect failures.
Such failures will only help avoid it in future.
Ofcourse, i was clarifying how there's no 'partial success' in a nuke launch.
Anyways there's absolutely no evidence that proves the test failed /succeeded or only partial success......speculating based on one report in a single newspaper....
https://theprint.in/defence/drdo-an...ar-capable-agni-night-test-failed/328862/?amp
After NIE, print also claims to have confirmed info from a 'top govt. official', so i wouldn't call it a hoax. The fact that the govt isn't denying it tips the scale towards confirmation.
 

no smoking

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Remember when I once said that even in deployed state all our missiles are in developmental phase and with each and every tests we do test one component or other?
As I told you before, your explanation was simply your own imagination. Test is test, but military force training is training. You can test a new component, but generally on a new manufactured missile. You can't mixed this with your military unit training. The training has its own procedure and own check list. Putting 2 together will only increase uncertainty and fuzziness for both.

In this case, the trial is carried out by SFC as part of training. Obviously it is checking the readiness of weapon after long time storage and the unit capability to hand the weapon during the night time. It is laughable to think that SFC will allow someone to test a new component during such a critical trial.

As for what led us to wait for a decade to test it. Well we had conducted night trials of SRBM and CM in past
You are funny, different type of missiles and different military unit. Please do some thinking before commenting.

but as you might be aware, test is not just about firing. It also about tracking. We have only recently came up with assets to conduct long range night time trials. So the maiden test of A2 and A3 are happening now.
This is about the readiness of one strategic part of your war machine, a strategic missile has been deployed for over 10 years without night trial simply because you don't have some "assets" to track? That is hilarious. Are you suggesting that DRDO just can't track a 3000km missile flight during night time until recently?
 

Chinmoy

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As I told you before, your explanation was simply your own imagination. Test is test, but military force training is training. You can test a new component, but generally on a new manufactured missile. You can't mixed this with your military unit training. The training has its own procedure and own check list. Putting 2 together will only increase uncertainty and fuzziness for both.

In this case, the trial is carried out by SFC as part of training. Obviously it is checking the readiness of weapon after long time storage and the unit capability to hand the weapon during the night time. It is laughable to think that SFC will allow someone to test a new component during such a critical trial.
I think you are suffering from serious block head. When it is a well known fact that India don't have the luxury and can't afford to carry out individual user trial and developmental trial all the time, you are bringing in the same illogical (in context of India) content time and time again. New tech is implemented during the developmental flight of a new system. But when it is implemented in a deployed system the tests are carried out during user trial.

You are funny, different type of missiles and different military unit. Please do some thinking before commenting.
I have better knowledge of our missile system then you. So stop making fun of your own intelligence. I do know which unit is using which missile and what is its capability.

This is about the readiness of one strategic part of your war machine, a strategic missile has been deployed for over 10 years without night trial simply because you don't have some "assets" to track? That is hilarious. Are you suggesting that DRDO just can't track a 3000km missile flight during night time until recently?
Again you are making fun of yourself and your intelligence. Whenever such a long range test is carried out we have to move out our assets for the tracking purpose. On top of that Chinese rats are always there to snoop up on the tests. So its a liability on our part to move out assets for the same. We were handicapped in that regard. All our previous night tests were bound upto 300km range.

But why I am even saying these things to you?
 

no smoking

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I think you are suffering from serious block head. When it is a well known fact that India don't have the luxury and can't afford to carry out individual user trial and developmental trial all the time, you are bringing in the same illogical (in context of India) content time and time again. New tech is implemented during the developmental flight of a new system. But when it is implemented in a deployed system the tests are carried out during user trial.
You are insulting the India military force. Individual user trial, or military trial of the readiness of the military unit is a MUST for any missile force. And this can only be done ALONE, why? Because the purpose of this kind of trial is not only checking the training level of your soldier, but also the status of the equipment and the deployed missile after A PERIOD OF SERVICE. So, the missile should be launched after system checking done only by the military unit. If you are trying to add new system or new tech into the tested missile in the trial, the missile will have to be sent back to the factory for installation, inevitably an thorough exam will be carried out and re-assembled. Then it is no longer a serviced missile but a re-fined missile. It is meaningless to use such a missile in a military drill.


I have better knowledge of our missile system then you. So stop making fun of your own intelligence. I do know which unit is using which missile and what is its capability.
Then show your knowledge, don't use this kind of BS logic to discuss.


Again you are making fun of yourself and your intelligence. Whenever such a long range test is carried out we have to move out our assets for the tracking purpose. On top of that Chinese rats are always there to snoop up on the tests. So its a liability on our part to move out assets for the same. We were handicapped in that regard.
You simply talk like a kid. This is not a development test, this is a user trial done by SFC. For them, the most important thing is whether their unit can do the job and how good their performance is. The top 2 concerns they have are: how the unit operating in the launching site and how accurate the warhead hits the target, how the missile flies is less important to them. It is laughable to them to exclude night trial simply because scientists can't track the missile all the journey. By the way, it is also laughable to claim that scientists can't track the whole trajectory of a 3000km missile. Guess how did they track their rockets and satellites. Maybe not as good as their new toys, but certainly can do the job.

All our previous night tests were bound upto 300km range.
That is the problem, isn't it. Agni-3 entered into service 10 years and was playing as the backbone of India's nuclear deterrence. And no night trial was ever carried out. Either Indian general is very sure that enemy will only come during daytime, or they simply don't take their No.1 enemy as serious as they claimed.
 

Bhurki

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By the way, it is also laughable to claim that scientists can't track the whole trajectory of a 3000km missile
They don't need to.. Once the warhead(s) re-enter the atmosphere, there's not much wiggle room for guidance. As such, tracking the warheads till they are about 300 km in altitude going down range should provide sub km CEP approximation.
Its only for more accuracy that the target area is observed.
 

no smoking

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They don't need to.. Once the warhead(s) re-enter the atmosphere, there's not much wiggle room for guidance. As such, tracking the warheads till they are about 300 km in altitude going down range should provide sub km CEP approximation.
Its only for more accuracy that the target area is observed.
Well, that was my reply to Mr Chinmoy's claim that India was unable to track the Agni-3's whole flight root during the night.
And I don't agree with you, for military users in the training, it is more important for them to understand the factors affecting the CEP rather than the CEP itself. As we all know, for middle-range missile, CEP is more decided during re-entering: the shape of warhead, the angle of re-entry, the weather condition, the earth magnetic, etc, etc. So, they need to observe the warhead trajectory within the atmosphere closely to understand these to improve their methodology of targeting parameters calculation. Also, they need to know the effects of long time storage, transportation, maintenance on RV.
 

Bhurki

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And I don't agree with you, for military users in the training, it is more important for them to understand the factors affecting the CEP rather than the CEP itself.
This test was conducted by SFC, not the manufacturer/tester. This is different from acceptance trials. The factors you talk about are already set to the core platform, and any change means going through an entire cycle of implementing, testing.... again.
What this test essentially was, is a black box/functional test rather than white box/ structural test.
If any changes are required to the physical characteristics, electronic behaviour etc., they'll need to ground the entire fleet of Agni3 and do a hideous thing called agile patchup which usually introduces far more problems than it actually solves.
 

Chinmoy

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You are insulting the India military force. Individual user trial, or military trial of the readiness of the military unit is a MUST for any missile force. And this can only be done ALONE, why? Because the purpose of this kind of trial is not only checking the training level of your soldier, but also the status of the equipment and the deployed missile after A PERIOD OF SERVICE. So, the missile should be launched after system checking done only by the military unit. If you are trying to add new system or new tech into the tested missile in the trial, the missile will have to be sent back to the factory for installation, inevitably an thorough exam will be carried out and re-assembled. Then it is no longer a serviced missile but a re-fined missile. It is meaningless to use such a missile in a military drill.




Then show your knowledge, don't use this kind of BS logic to discuss.




You simply talk like a kid. This is not a development test, this is a user trial done by SFC. For them, the most important thing is whether their unit can do the job and how good their performance is. The top 2 concerns they have are: how the unit operating in the launching site and how accurate the warhead hits the target, how the missile flies is less important to them. It is laughable to them to exclude night trial simply because scientists can't track the missile all the journey. By the way, it is also laughable to claim that scientists can't track the whole trajectory of a 3000km missile. Guess how did they track their rockets and satellites. Maybe not as good as their new toys, but certainly can do the job.



That is the problem, isn't it. Agni-3 entered into service 10 years and was playing as the backbone of India's nuclear deterrence. And no night trial was ever carried out. Either Indian general is very sure that enemy will only come during daytime, or they simply don't take their No.1 enemy as serious as they claimed.
I have dealt with many block heads over here. But you are the ultimate. One should crown you for that.

You have zero idea on how Indian Military works and you are saying that I am insulting them? I am just stating the facts and yes we have some limitations and have to work within those limitations.

Read the reports of tests before blabbering here. All the user trials are supported by DRDO with infra. SFC don't carry out any independent tests on its own. And we pick up randomly selected missiles from production unit, not from deployed unit. So for any new change, it doesn't need to be send back to production unit.

As about why we have taken a decade to test A3 even after deploying it. Because we have two biggest madcap in world as our neighbour. So we need to have a deterrence against these nutjobs anyway.

BTW we have increased our night time tests. 3 back to back night trials were conducted within a month time. Now compare it with previous night time tests intervals.
 

no smoking

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Read the reports of tests before blabbering here. All the user trials are supported by DRDO with infra. SFC don't carry out any independent tests on its own. And we pick up randomly selected missiles from production unit, not from deployed unit. So for any new change, it doesn't need to be send back to production unit.
Oh, how stubborn you are. I am not talking about the new development but the normal training and drill.
1.For any country, military force must carry out at least one INDEPENDENT trial EVERY YEAR to check the status of your soldier and your weapon. The whole logistic should be provided by military unit itself and other military department, from preparing work before launch, tracking to the accuracy. The R&D department can only clarify the data;
2. During the kind of drill or trial, the missile must be pick up randomly from the current service unit not production unit to make sure the effectiveness of the deployed missiles.

So, stop your BS about that India can't afford independent trial. That is the minimum requirement for any missile force. If you don't do it, then the effectiveness of India deterrence should be questioned.

As about why we have taken a decade to test A3 even after deploying it. Because we have two biggest madcap in world as our neighbour. So we need to have a deterrence against these nutjobs anyway.
Sorry, what? Because you have 2 biggest madcap as you neighbour, so it take you more than 10 years to do night trial? Shouldn't this night trial be done much earlier if you have 2 madcap enemies sitting outside your door? Isn't the night launch an important part of the deterrence? Are you losing your mind?

BTW we have increased our night time tests. 3 back to back night trials were conducted within a month time.Now compare it with previous night time tests intervals.
Oh, yes, you have increase your night time tests from ZERO to 3 after 10 YEARS. Well done.
 

asianobserve

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Northrop Grumman develops space-based hypersonic missile defense system

Northrop Grumman, one of the world’s largest defense contractors, announced on Monday that it has been selected as one of four Other Transaction Authority awards for the Phase IIa Prototype Payload Design and Signal-chain Processing Demonstration of the Missile Defense Agency’s (MDA) Hypersonic and Ballistic Tracking Space Sensor (HBTSS) program.

https://defence-blog.com/news/north...-based-hypersonic-missile-defense-system.html
 

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