How to counter Fifth Generation Stealth fighters?

[Shirman]

@p2prada

detection is the main tool in defeating stealth........when it comes 2 confronting stealth designs in 21st century at least me myself here this mantra that stealth was developed 2 defeat detection of a conventional radar tech..What u can't see u can't shoot/target blah blah n all the discovery channel documentaries............Well the truth is raytheon SEMEE is in the developing n actualizing phase n Japan needs some tech 2 overcome J-20, J-31 along with Su-35s for which the earlier posted upgrade plans for the Jap F-15 CJ/ DJ r being developed though they will get F-35 in the future.....

Ur non Stealthy Aew&c scenario reminded me of an ongoing uni tech project.......well according 2 them they r developing a VLO stealthy UAV something in our AURA class which "POPS UP" an Aew&c style radar "detection device"..that detection device is nothing but weaponising the quantium imaging tec available 2day...........

When it comes 2 confronting STEALTH once the detection problem is solved "targeting'' can always be done by 4th-4.5 gen fighter.....

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't think all 4.5th gens like RAFALE and Typhoon will be retired in a decade, Simply put they will be networked with stealth UCAVS with radars sensitive enough to detect 5th gens. So only a 5ht gen can detect ,track and destroy another 5th gens is not entirely true.

If a 200 plus Km BVR missile carrying 4.5th gens are networked with ,
stealth asea carrying UCAVS(smaller and stealthier than the 5th gen fighters) flying a hundred kilometer around them ,
then it will be the same as one 5th gen hunting another.

In fact these 4.5th gens will carry thrice the stealth load of 5th gens . SO once detected and tracked by stealth UCAVS(using the same tech as 5th gen hunting 5ht gens) . SO all 4.5th gens won't be so obsolete so fast.

 

[Shirman]

ya so some quantum imaging solutions available right now on which the uni students have based their 5 Gen anti-stealth Hunter killer UAV are as following:-
Scientists demonstrate unjammable radar based on quantum imaging
Quantum Imaging From University of Rochester - Business Insider

Note not all air force can afford 5th gen a/c fleets given their super-expensive prices smaller air forces will have some options such as these......

Their design thoery perfectly explained above by @ersakthivel.......:thumb:

 

[p2prada]

detection is the main tool in defeating stealth

Yes. But that doesn't solve the problems that come with engagement.

Well the truth is raytheon SEMEE is in the developing n actualizing phase n Japan needs some tech 2 overcome J-20, J-31 along with Su-35s for which the earlier posted upgrade plans for the Jap F-15 CJ/ DJ r being developed though they will get F-35 in the future.....

They can try. It may work, it may not work.

Ur non Stealthy Aew&c scenario reminded me of an ongoing uni tech project.......well according 2 them they r developing a VLO stealthy UAV something in our AURA class which "POPS UP" an Aew&c style radar "detection device"..that detection device is nothing but weaponising the quantium imaging tec available 2day...........

If this uses IR tech, then the IR tech on the more capable PAKFA/F-22 will detect this UAV first and kill it.

If this uses radar, then there is no such operational aircraft present which will match PAKFA/F-22 in radar capability. Once again, the UAV will be at the lower end of the spectrum.

When it comes 2 confronting STEALTH once the detection problem is solved "targeting'' can always be done by 4th-4.5 gen fighter.....

That's where you are wrong. Detection is the easy bit against stealth aircraft. But, detection isn't tracking. Tracking isn't engaging. Engaging isn't killing. Each harder than the next.

You can detect a stealth aircraft, but you can't keep detecting for long. You will lose the target as quickly as you found it. With the kinematic agility of the F-22, it can be 10Kms or even 50Kms away from the last known point where it was detected at first. Tracking comes when you can detect an aircraft consistently. This is where stealth beats today's radar. If you can only detect and not track, then you cannot engage. If you cannot engage then you cannot kill. If you cannot kill then you are dead. Even if we assume you can detect, track and engage, your missile itself may not be able to make the kill because the PAKFA/F-22 has better capabilities when it comes to countermeasures both in terms of hard kill and soft kill.

It is simple. If you detect a stealth aircraft using UAV (none exist or planned in the near future, possibly after 20 years from today) or AWACS, then you will have to quickly send in another stealth aircraft to beat the enemy. If you send in a 4th gen fighter against the 5th gen, then it will be engaged first, AWACS or no AWACS. It all depends on the assets you have in possession today.

If your enemy has a F-22, then you can't have anything less than another F-22.

With modern technology + F-15s, like the Japanese plan, you have a small chance of engaging and making a kill, but with more F-22s around, you are dead before you know it.

 

[p2prada]

ya so some quantum imaging solutions available right now on which the uni students have based their 5 Gen anti-stealth Hunter killer UAV are as following:-
Scientists demonstrate unjammable radar based on quantum imaging
Quantum Imaging From University of Rochester - Business Insider

These are not the only ones. There are a lot more novel ideas in radar technology alone which can make stealth obsolete. But by the time such systems are designed, tested and fielded, it is expected it will happen only in 15-20 years from now.

Note not all air force can afford 5th gen a/c fleets given their super-expensive prices smaller air forces will have some options such as these......

Think about it. If stealth becomes obsolete to the point where radar systems are able to detect and engage stealth with little problems, then what will happen to 4th gen systems that will scream their position to radars with large target signs.

If stealth aircraft like F-22 and F-35 become obsolete, which they eventually will over the next 20 years, then 4th gen systems will obviously become beyond obsolete to the point where we will be recalling 4th gen systems at the same level as pre-first generation birds like Spitfire.

If air forces are not able to afford such systems, then they will not survive. As has been the case for thousands of years.

Just like the difference between a propeller driven Spitfire and a Me-262, the F-22 is a new generation of aircraft that defines a new era of technology. You can say the F-15 is the 4th gen aircraft and the last gen aircraft, like the Spitfire, of the previous era while the F-22 is the first generation of new aircraft to come.

Their design thoery perfectly explained above by ersakthivel.......:thumb:

Unfortunately he missed the fact that there are no such UAVs planned in the near future. AURA is a small UCAV, meant for strike roles. The X series of UCAVs in the US are also for the strike and recce role. So are the UCAV plans from Europe.

The planned UCAV development and fielding dates know today are more in the 2030-40 range. If you want a UCAV that rivals a F-22 or PAKFA then you are going to need a UCAV of similar size with similar size radars and other detectors. If you are expecting a heavy UCAV for air superiority to pop out before 2030 then it is not happening. That's because there is nothing planned with that in mind as of today.

4th generation systems are not expected to survive beyond 2020-30 period, let alone 2040.

As a matter of fact, had the Soviet Union still survived, the Americans had plans of completely replacing all their 4th gen systems with 5th gen F-22 and F-35, in the 2005 period up to 2025. At least the air force did. The only reason why they still have 4th gen systems is because of budget cuts since the fall of the SU. As of today's plans the last 4th gen bird should be out of all American services by 2035 to pave way for UCAVs.

His "design theory" doesn't comply with facts.

 

[DivineHeretic]

I don't think all 4.5th gens like RAFALE and Typhoon will be retired in a decade, Simply put they will be networked with stealth UCAVS with radars sensitive enough to detect 5th gens. So only a 5ht gen can detect ,track and destroy another 5th gens is not entirely true.

If a 200 plus Km BVR missile carrying 4.5th gens are networked with ,
stealth asea carrying UCAVS(smaller and stealthier than the 5th gen fighters) flying a hundred kilometer around them ,
then it will be the same as one 5th gen hunting another.

In fact these 4.5th gens will carry thrice the stealth load of 5th gens . SO once detected and tracked by stealth UCAVS(using the same tech as 5th gen hunting 5ht gens) . SO all 4.5th gens won't be so obsolete so fast.

4.5gen aircraft will be around till 2030-35 atleast, not accounting for any revolution in air warfare. Though you will have to agree that their roles will change from omni role to strike aircraft. The air dominance or air superiority category and the deep penetration roles will be taken by the 5th gen heavy fighters.

Your analogy of networked forces with 5th gen/6th gen UCAV is flawed by current trends. The F22 can only linkup with other F22s as of now, that too via satellite. This was done to prevent its detection by passive sensors due to emission whilst networking with a 4th gen AC. In future too, this will likely not change, but will possibly allow linking to AWACS.

There is another factor that must be considered while talking of engagements by 5th gen AC. It is well known that despite presence of AESA, the 5th gen ACs prefer to fly emission silent profile, so as not to give away their position by their own radiation. This is the reason why 5th gen aircraft used till now have only been used as strike aircraft. Air warfare, even against 4th gen neccesitates that it be guided by AWACS, or via satellites or ground based radar systems if it wants to maintain its invisibility in battlefield. Of course IRST will also come in handy, but in either case, it is passive or indirect detection that will be used by the 5th gen, especially the F35, as its flight performance will by majority of accounts be inferior to the Eurocanards and by extension the Mki. This rules out active engagements by the F35.

This fact allows the defender a chance to hold their own against the F35, and to an extent the F22. A JSTAR equivalent platform or even ground based jamming system can force the F35 to break invisibility by cutting off communications with the AWACS or any other sensor. The IRST, though effective, has a high rate of false alarm and thus pilots still prefer the radar detection. This allows the non 5th gen to play on a roughly even plane against the 5th gen, assuming the 4th gen has sufficient EW package.

As for BVR engagements beyond 100km, I believe the leading AFs realise that in the next two decades when widespread use of 5th gen AC will occur, the BVR engagemnet distance will shrink considerably, especially since even the newer 4th gens have a significantly low RCS which makes detection difficult at ranges beyond 100km, and no solution is in sight to allow detection at such long ranges for 5th gen.

 

[ersakthivel]

See detecting and tracking the 5th gens in home air space is a separate field of R& D.
This R& D has no bar on being fitted on any stealth UCAVS or 5th gens or 4th gens right now. because there is no such development effort now.
Once this development efforts are done it will be placed in all the above 3 platforms. SO there is no point in saying that there is no stealth detecting UCAV plan planned till now.
Because there is simply no stealth detecting radar efforts that has reached the final product stage. They are still in labs.

Like how once 120 km range meteor finds it's place once it's developmental phase is over,
and how the brahmos IAF version gets bolted on to SU-30 MKI once development is complete,

the stealth detecting and tracking tech too will find it's place in UCAVS once developmental effort is over.

Why the developmental effort of this anti stealth radar has not taken place in US or EUROPE is simply because there is no matching 5th gen stealth finished fighter from either CHINA or Russia,
Now J-20 and PAKFA are peeking you will find PDFs leaking about from the US and Europe side about how to detect the 5th gens and on which platform they will be fitted and certainly it won't be limited to 5th gens alone is my idea.

It sure is gonna happen very soon, If not already figured out by these guys,

When that tech arrives it will level the field.

4.5th gens won't be at great disadvantage against this 5th gen stealth detecting techs , because they are already detected from close to 150 km by today's available radar.

If the 5th gen stealth detecting radars detect them at 600 plus km nothing changes in air defence roles at least.

Because there is no effective 600 km range Air to air missile right now. Even if they enter production after a decade they will be close to the size of cruise missiles and they themselves will be target of 100 km range air to air missile from 4.5th gens is my idea.

Also whether these 600 km missiles will into the internal weapon bays of today's 5th gens or not is another question,

Even if they fit in a 5th gen stealth will carry hardly more than 3 or four considering their weight and size in their stealth mode ,

So if these 3 or 4 missiles are released on 4.5th gens from 600 km away , they can easily be tracked and targeted by close range air to air missile tech of 2030s or 2040s with the help of UCAVS flying in front with MAWS. Or based on these warnings the 4.5th gens will start their evasive maneuvers to get out of the kill box zone of these 600 km air to air missiles.

Because the bulk and length of these massive high ranged missiles will be too heavy and not many can be carried in stealth bays.

In the history of war human kind has always developed a counter to every weapon ever used in the battlefield. SO it is hard to imagine that 5th gens alone would escape this fate.

 

[ersakthivel]

4.5gen aircraft will be around till 2030-35 atleast, not accounting for any revolution in air warfare. Though you will have to agree that their roles will change from omni role to strike aircraft. The air dominance or air superiority category and the deep penetration roles will be taken by the 5th gen heavy fighters.

Your analogy of networked forces with 5th gen/6th gen UCAV is flawed by current trends. The F22 can only linkup with other F22s as of now, that too via satellite. This was done to prevent its detection by passive sensors due to emission whilst networking with a 4th gen AC. In future too, this will likely not change, but will possibly allow linking to AWACS.

There is another factor that must be considered while talking of engagements by 5th gen AC. It is well known that despite presence of AESA, the 5th gen ACs prefer to fly emission silent profile, so as not to give away their position by their own radiation. This is the reason why 5th gen aircraft used till now have only been used as strike aircraft. Air warfare, even against 4th gen neccesitates that it be guided by AWACS, or via satellites or ground based radar systems if it wants to maintain its invisibility in battlefield. Of course IRST will also come in handy, but in either case, it is passive or indirect detection that will be used by the 5th gen, especially the F35, as its flight performance will by majority of accounts be inferior to the Eurocanards and by extension the Mki. This rules out active engagements by the F35.

This fact allows the defender a chance to hold their own against the F35, and to an extent the F22. A JSTAR equivalent platform or even ground based jamming system can force the F35 to break invisibility by cutting off communications with the AWACS or any other sensor. The IRST, though effective, has a high rate of false alarm and thus pilots still prefer the radar detection. This allows the non 5th gen to play on a roughly even plane against the 5th gen, assuming the 4th gen has sufficient EW package.

As for BVR engagements beyond 100km, I believe the leading AFs realise that in the next two decades when widespread use of 5th gen AC will occur, the BVR engagemnet distance will shrink considerably, especially since even the newer 4th gens have a significantly low RCS which makes detection difficult at ranges beyond 100km, and no solution is in sight to allow detection at such long ranges for 5th gen.

You are forgeting one key fact. The radar silent emission silent F-22 needs some detecting and tracking aid from today's X band radar for targeting of it's long range air to air missiles.

My question is who will do that. Because as per some posts here the AWACS can't give accurate detection and tracking info so vital for the F-22's missiles from a range of 600 kms.(i neither counter it nor agree with it, because we are yet to know of the latest developments regarding this.)

Even if we agree on the assumption that an AWACS can do that from 400 km distance behind the F-22 , what is the guarantee that 4.5th gens will allow the AWACS to reach there ? If F-22 flies 200 km in front of AWACS in radar silent mode it has no way of saving it's own tracking AWACS from 4.5th gens of today.
Because it cannot detect these 4.5th gens with their own radar , which is switched OFF to maintain radar silence.

So a lot remains between apocalypse and F-22s.

 

[DivineHeretic]

You are forgeting one key fact. The radar silent emission silent F-22 needs some detecting and tracking aid from today's X band radar for targeting of it's long range air to air missiles.

My question is who will do that. Because as per some posts here the AWACS can't give accurate detection and tracking info so vital for the F-22's missiles from a range of 600 kms.(i neither counter it nor agree with it, because we are yet to know of the latest developments regarding this.)

Even if we agree on the assumption that an AWACS can do that from 400 km distance behind the F-22 , what is the guarantee that 4.5th gens will allow the AWACS to reach there ? If F-22 flies 200 km in front of AWACS in radar silent mode it has no way of saving it's own tracking AWACS from 4.5th gens of today.
Because it cannot detect these 4.5th gens with their own radar , which is switched OFF to maintain radar silence.

So a lot remains between apocalypse and F-22s.

I did not forget this fact. infact that was the basis of my arguement. I had said that the ability of 5th gen fighters to act like air dominance or air superiority is suspect, especially if it wants to maintain its invisiblity. You got me wrong.

In all likelyhood the F22or the F35 will prefer to use its own passive detection eg :the IRST or onboard sensors for detecting hostile emission. In case AWACS is unavailable or ineffective and they are forced to use their own radar they risk detection.

This is why I said that in all likelyhood BVR engagement distance will shrink, as neither side has the means to detect the other at such extreme range.

 

[p2prada]

I did not forget this fact. infact that was the basis of my arguement. I had said that the ability of 5th gen fighters to act like air dominance or air superiority is suspect, especially if it wants to maintain its invisiblity. You got me wrong.

Multiple aircraft will be used. F-22 does not fly alone. There will be the F-22's wingman and other F-22s in the group.

A group could have 2 aircraft to as many as 8. Some of them can use their radars while some don't have to.

The ones who turn on their radars will be the spotters, the others will be the ones who pull the trigger.

In all likelyhood the F22or the F35 will prefer to use its own passive detection eg :the IRST or onboard sensors for detecting hostile emission. In case AWACS is unavailable or ineffective and they are forced to use their own radar they risk detection.

Cueing on hostile emission is just one form of detection. If you are talking about 1v1 engagement, then there are limited options. In a force wide operation, multiple F-22s and multiple F-35s will be assigned different tasks.

This is why I said that in all likelyhood BVR engagement distance will shrink, as neither side has the means to detect the other at such extreme range.

Anything above 18Km is BVR. How will it shrink below that? That will go into WVR realm.

You are talking about current technology limitations. Detection and engagement ranges will improve as and when all aircraft receive new upgrades. So, the ability to engage and fire missiles from longer distances will only increase over time. RCS does not change drastically on an aircraft, unlike radar capability which can be upgraded every 5 years.

There are so many modes in radars that even 4th gen aircraft use passive radar modes and rely only on enemy emissions for detection. This is not a 5th gen capability. 5th gen simply took this capability to a new level. Also, this is just one of the many engagement capabilities that the F-22 is capable of, most other capabilities are classified. According to a DoD report, when the F-22 was operational in 2005, more than 60% of the capabilities of the F-22 could not be discussed.

Anyway, most BVR engagements happen above 18Km and around 30-40Km. Beyond that missiles won't have kinetic performance that is required for endgame maneuvers. BVR engagements don't happen at 100+Km either way. 100Km shots are taken to keep the enemy defensive.

Currently used BVR missiles cannot lock on to the F-22 as of today. So only IR missile or gun kill is available, considering the F-22 allows a WVR fight or it will always disengage and either leave or restart the fight. So, in that sense only a handful of forces using missiles like MICA IR, R-73M1/M2 or R-27ET can have BVR capability against F-22s, and at modest distances.

 

[ersakthivel]

what ever be the classified capabilities it is surprising that europeans won't have reached that level by now.The F22 capabilities are passive seeking by the enemy's IR and electro magnetic emission is now on RAfALE itself.It can be put on any 4.5th gen plane.

Also all 4.5th gen planes can be shielded from emitting electro magnetic emissions like the F-2.It is not a 5th gen restricted capability. Onlt 5th gen restricted capability is VLO RCS.Other than that all the tech are now seeping into 4.5th gen as well.

The F-22s that are acting as spotters will be shot at first by 4.5th gen .Because todays rwr doubles up as a tracking source for anti radiation missiles.

And DFRM enabled wide field RWR can pick up the asea radar as well.

So the spotter F-22s(even if they use ASEA) have to fly away from the scene of battle first leaving shooters with no eyes and ears,no ideal 5th gen tactics perhaps.

If all the BVR fights happen within 30-40 km,because at ranges longer than that the BVrs loose the kinematic energy required fro the kill, then the 5th gens have no use at all. because passive IRST tracking of 5th gens from 40 kms by 4.5th gens like RAFALE is a possibility even today.

once the rough location of 5th gen fighter is given to a dual seeker missile on 4.5th gen within this 30-40 km range (both radar and infra red ) it's Infrared sensors which seek out the surface heat of the 5th gen fighters will be hard to defeat with flares .

By the same logic if no effective BVR shots by 5th gens on 4.5th gen is possible from more than 30-40 km range , because missiles lose kinematic energy required for the kill against Ew ,MAWS enabled high ITR , High G 4.5th gen fighters then what is the advantage of 5th gen F-22?

 

[average american]

what ever be the classified capabilities it is surprising that europeans won't have reached that level by now.The F22 capabilities are passive seeking by the enemy's IR and electro magnetic emission is now on RAfALE itself.It can be put on any 4.5th gen plane.

Also all 4.5th gen planes can be shielded from emitting electro magnetic emissions like the F-2.It is not a 5th gen restricted capability. Onlt 5th gen restricted capability is VLO RCS.Other than that all the tech are now seeping into 4.5th gen as well.

The F-22s that are acting as spotters will be shot at first by 4.5th gen .Because todays rwr doubles up as a tracking source for anti radiation missiles.

And DFRM enabled wide field RWR can pick up the asea radar as well.

So the spotter F-22s(even if they use ASEA) have to fly away from the scene of battle first leaving shooters with no eyes and ears,no ideal 5th gen tactics perhaps.

If all the BVR fights happen within 30-40 km,because at ranges longer than that the BVrs loose the kinematic energy required fro the kill, then the 5th gens have no use at all. because passive IRST tracking of 5th gens from 40 kms by 4.5th gens like RAFALE is a possibility even today.

once the rough location of 5th gen fighter is given to a dual seeker missile on 4.5th gen within this 30-40 km range (both radar and infra red ) it's Infrared sensors which seek out the surface heat of the 5th gen fighters will be hard to defeat with flares .

By the same logic if no effective BVR shots by 5th gens on 4.5th gen is possible from more than 30-40 km range , because missiles lose kinematic energy required for the kill against Ew ,MAWS enabled high ITR , High G 4.5th gen fighters then what is the advantage of 5th gen F-22?

Rather wishful thinking,,,, in red flag exercises planes useing IRST are not able to sucessfully shoot down F22 or F35 or even get a lock on the F22 and F35 when they can even see it.

Invisibility - even with eyes on

When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

Feature - Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag

In fact, the Red Flag exercise is now so intense one 414th CTS critique quotes a squadron commander saying "This ain't your daddy's Red Flag anymore."

Thus it is understood the people of the Blue Forces, like those in the 94th, are pushed to the limit, working 12-hour days and fighting two "wars" in a 24-hour period. Colonel Smith added that humans still operate the F-22 - and the human mind is fallible.

The goal, he said, is sharpening the Air Force - and that involves grinding away imperfections. Is the exercise difficult for the F-22 pilots? "Yes," said Colonel Smith. "You bet it is. But [Peyton] Manning didn't make it to the Super Bowl by practicing against a scrub team."

 

[DivineHeretic]

Multiple aircraft will be used. F-22 does not fly alone. There will be the F-22's wingman and other F-22s in the group.

A group could have 2 aircraft to as many as 8. Some of them can use their radars while some don't have to.

The ones who turn on their radars will be the spotters, the others will be the ones who pull the trigger.



Cueing on hostile emission is just one form of detection. If you are talking about 1v1 engagement, then there are limited options. In a force wide operation, multiple F-22s and multiple F-35s will be assigned different tasks.



Anything above 18Km is BVR. How will it shrink below that? That will go into WVR realm.

You are talking about current technology limitations. Detection and engagement ranges will improve as and when all aircraft receive new upgrades. So, the ability to engage and fire missiles from longer distances will only increase over time. RCS does not change drastically on an aircraft, unlike radar capability which can be upgraded every 5 years.

There are so many modes in radars that even 4th gen aircraft use passive radar modes and rely only on enemy emissions for detection. This is not a 5th gen capability. 5th gen simply took this capability to a new level. Also, this is just one of the many engagement capabilities that the F-22 is capable of, most other capabilities are classified. According to a DoD report, when the F-22 was operational in 2005, more than 60% of the capabilities of the F-22 could not be discussed.

Anyway, most BVR engagements happen above 18Km and around 30-40Km. Beyond that missiles won't have kinetic performance that is required for endgame maneuvers. BVR engagements don't happen at 100+Km either way. 100Km shots are taken to keep the enemy defensive.

Currently used BVR missiles cannot lock on to the F-22 as of today. So only IR missile or gun kill is available, considering the F-22 allows a WVR fight or it will always disengage and either leave or restart the fight. So, in that sense only a handful of forces using missiles like MICA IR, R-73M1/M2 or R-27ET can have BVR capability against F-22s, and at modest distances.

Its a given that if you have spotted a fighter in the air, you have just identified two fighters, that is unless someone from your side calls in a kill. The method you stated will work if there are multiple groups in the team. One group of 2 fighters cant use it, as any well trained opponent pilot will figure out the tactics at work. This is the reason why the USAF always flew multiple groups of 2 during GW2. It hepls to confuse the enemy about the number of fighters in the air,and at the same time gets a detection.

I had taken into account this factor, and this is why I said that you need a JSTAR equivalent platform to disrupt the communication between the different aircraft. This forces them to turn on their own radars, increasing chances of detection, and somewhat levels the playing field.

As far as my comment on shrinking range of BVR engagement is concerned, it was in no way aimed at the threshold of BVR. It was rather aimed at people who were stating that bvr kills will be made at 100km, and one stated that it will be done at 200km. My understanding is that such extreme ranges of bvr kill will be unfeasible for the next decade at least.

I never said that passive detection was a 5th gen technology. But my understanding is that under favourable conditions the 5th gen aircraft will prefer passive detection to increase the possibility of remaining undetected by hostile sensors. A fourth gen, especially the likes of MKI or Strike Eagle will rather use their Radar under the same conditions, as their large RCS will anyway give away their presence. I am not suggesting that one method is better than the other,rather what the phillosophy of a pilot will be in different AC belonging to different gen.

And as far as your statement on bvr engagements is concerned, I agree fully with it. But a fifth gen with current radar will struggle to get a bvr kill as much as a fourth gen. This will not change until a revolution occurs in radar. The radar of the 5th gen AC will have keep guiding the bvr missile until the seeker of the missile aquires it on its own. This is vey difficult in the modern theatre as the enemy will immediately become aware of his being under radar lock and missile solution being used. With sufficient
EW capability, aka Spectre etc the defending AC will attempt to jam the radar signal, which BTW until now has not been achieved against AESA. Alongwith it jamming will also aim to break communication between the AC and the missile. If either of this is achieved, the bvr will wander off.

 

[average american]

80 percent of kills now days are befor the enemy pliot even knows hes under attack,, air to air missiles used by the USA are optical guided, they dont give off a radar warning. With the advent of stealth fighters there kills befor a pliot knows hes under attack is going to exceed 95 percent. Stealth lends itself to changes in stratgy that are going to increase the chances of surprise attack and play on the vunerability of then enemy. An F22 at 55000 feet cruising at MACH 1.6 is going to launch a missile a lot further and lot faster then normal. Speed of the F 22 is up to MACH 3.2 the australias have a mutual defense treaty with the USA, if they are under attack we are going to be there with a hundred or so F22s.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

good discussion going on, please continue. @p2prada why did you say current bvr missiles can't lock on to f22 ? because of low rcs ? so the rules of rcs vs radar range is applied to missile seeker heads too ?
do you believe radar detection capability(including missile seeker heads ) is going to be greater and rcs reducing methods will not be able to catch up with it ?if yes then at some point of time stealth will become useless because all radars will see the aircraft well before the maximum engagement range of their missile ? isn't it ? if so then then determining factor in who shoots first depends on max engagement range of missile vs kinamatic performance,ecm of aircraft on the run. stealth is out from the picture, at least it becomes not so important.
what I think is new kind of stealth materials and technologies will arise and will keep up the challenge to radar detection.

 

[rock127]

As we all know, all the Fifth Generation Fighters in development are stealth equipped, and as their developers claim, they will be extremely hard for a radar to spot. So assume if two countries with stealth aircraft fight in the future, like India and China, or China and U.S.A., or U.S.A.how is one gonna counter the other's stealth capabilities?

By deploying LRB(Long Range Binoculars) at their borders to physically see it.

 

[DivineHeretic]

good discussion going on, please continue. @p2prada why did you say current bvr missiles can't lock on to f22 ? because of low rcs ? so the rules of rcs vs radar range is applied to missile seeker heads too ?
do you believe radar detection capability(including missile seeker heads ) is going to be greater and rcs reducing methods will not be able to catch up with it ?if yes then at some point of time stealth will become useless because all radars will see the aircraft well before the maximum engagement range of their missile ? isn't it ? if so then then determining factor in who shoots first depends on max engagement range of missile vs kinamatic performance,ecm of aircraft on the run. stealth is out from the picture, at least it becomes not so important.
what I think is new kind of stealth materials and technologies will arise and will keep up the challenge to radar detection.

P2prada was right in saying that current bvr missiles cant lock onto F22. And you guessed the reason right. The radar seeker onboard a bvr is a miniature version of the radar that goes on the aircraft. Its smaller size limits the power and by extension, the detection ability and detection range. Therefore the same limitations as that of AC radar vs stealth arises, but with much larger problems for the seeker.

It is very difficult to say whether radar tech will outrun stealth or otherwise. But currently, the advantage goes to stealth and will remain so for a long time.
And no missile is launched at max range, this is done to reduce the time for countermeasures as also to take into account the manuevres made by the target AC.

 

[ersakthivel]

Rather wishful thinking,,,, in red flag exercises planes useing IRST are not able to sucessfully shoot down F22 or F35 or even get a lock on the F22 and F35 when they can even see it.

Invisibility - even with eyes on

When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

Feature - Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag

In fact, the Red Flag exercise is now so intense one 414th CTS critique quotes a squadron commander saying "This ain't your daddy's Red Flag anymore."

Thus it is understood the people of the Blue Forces, like those in the 94th, are pushed to the limit, working 12-hour days and fighting two "wars" in a 24-hour period. Colonel Smith added that humans still operate the F-22 - and the human mind is fallible.

The goal, he said, is sharpening the Air Force - and that involves grinding away imperfections. Is the exercise difficult for the F-22 pilots? "Yes," said Colonel Smith. "You bet it is. But [Peyton] Manning didn't make it to the Super Bowl by practicing against a scrub team."

As far as I know if someone sees a enemy fighter with his eyse, in case he is having DASH or helmet mounted aiming system he can launch his WVR missiles on it just by looking it.

SO how do you justify the following quote?Did RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell have this facility or not?Did the rules of engagement allow it or not?

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Also how does the F-22 target the enemy fighter with long range BVrs while being RADAR silent? And how does the surrogate craft that gives enemy fighter's co ordinates get away.

In case if F-22 used passive tracking via the enemy fighter's electro magnetic emission , then if future 4.5th gens also employ complete suppression of Electro magnetic emissions , how will F-22 acquire it's target?

What will be the future range of IRST based tracking system?

 

[ersakthivel]

80 percent of kills now days are befor the enemy pliot even knows hes under attack,, air to air missiles used by the USA are optical guided, they dont give off a radar warning. With the advent of stealth fighters there kills befor a pliot knows hes under attack is going to exceed 95 percent. Stealth lends itself to changes in stratgy that are going to increase the chances of surprise attack and play on the vunerability of then enemy. An F22 at 55000 feet cruising at MACH 1.6 is going to launch a missile a lot further and lot faster then normal. Speed of the F 22 is up to MACH 3.2 the australias have a mutual defense treaty with the USA, if they are under attack we are going to be there with a hundred or so F22s.

Well , more than 100 percent of the above mentioned 80 percent BVR kills were achieved against older export version of Soviet MIGs which have next to nothing EW , MAWS and Jamming technology.this is not my statement .It is the statement of RAND think tank's crucial study after careful research.

They won't count much in modern theater filled with 4.5th gens.
What is the range of future MAWS?
What will be the capacity of future 4.5 th gen's EW systems to Jam the F-22 seeker asea radar?
How effective will the EM emisssion suppression of 4.5 th gens will work?
How effective will future IRST acquire the 5th gens at what range?
How secure will be the communication between 5th gen fighter and the BVR fired from it?
Answer to these questions determine the effectiveness of 5th gens against 4.5th gens. Not some statement from RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappel.

 

[average american]

Well , more than 100 percent of the above mentioned 80 percent BVR kills were achieved against older export version of Soviet MIGs which have next to nothing EW , MAWS and Jamming technology.this is not my statement .It is the statement of RAND think tank's crucial study after careful research.

They won't count much in modern theater filled with 4.5th gens.
What is the range of future MAWS?
What will be the capacity of future 4.5 th gen's EW systems to Jam the F-22 seeker asea radar?
How effective will the EM emisssion suppression of 4.5 th gens will work?
How effective will future IRST acquire the 5th gens at what range?
How secure will be the communication between 5th gen fighter and the BVR fired from it?
Answer to these questions determine the effectiveness of 5th gens against 4.5th gens. Not some statement from RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappel.

Theres nothing to jam on optical guided missiles, IRST on F22 and F35 are reduced by 75 perccent with composites, sheilding an heat reduceing techniques, missiles will be programed to go to a certain point and then the optical systems activated. The T50 has a radar signature of 5000 times that of a F22 , the least detectable plane is allways going to have a substantial advantage.