Here's How Israel will Attack Iran

Known_Unknown

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Ajad denies the holocaust ever happened. He is not undiplomatic, he is quite frankly, a loonie.
Yea, maybe he is. But he is only the President, and in Iran, the President does not have the final say, the ayatollahs do. And I haven't heard that the majority of the ayatollahs want war with Israel. Instead, the very fact that we're discussing Israel striking Iran's nuke facilities and not vice versa is proof enough of Iran's pacifist attitude towards war.

What other option did Israel have? How does it affect Israel's operational effectiveness?
What option did it have? How about implementing the UN resolution that created Israel in 1948? Let's not mince words here. Israel is an artificial state just like Pakistan, in fact it's much worse. If a part of India were broken off in 1947, and gifted away to Gypsies who haven't had any ties with the subcontinent for centuries, and subsequently, the gypsies barricaded the Indians living there in refugee camps for decades, we'd be just as pissed off as the Palestinians are.

Iranian and ME history are full of wars! The Persian empire wasn't established by diplomacy.
I'm talking about the modern state of Iran. When we say that India has never started any war, we refer to the modern republic of India, don't we? Same analogy.

Iran-Iraq War ignited by Ayatollah Khomeini's call for Iraqi Shi'ites to overthrow Saddam in order to install a Shi'ite government in Baghdad. Now they are provoking Israel and if Israel hits back, Israel ll be the aggressor against the "peaceful" Iranians.
So if Pakistan issues a statement to Indian Muslims to overthrow the "infidel" Indian government in Delhi, that is reason enough for India to go to war against Pakistan? What kind of silly reasoning is this?

Anyone who expects Ayotallah to "Wipe Out The Zionist regime" is living in fantasy land.
and

Very passive, is that why the harbingers of peace want to wipe out Israel then?
this. Make up your mind.

Pallies don't want their state, they want to finish Israel. They hate Israelis more than they love their kids.
Isn't that the same reasoning that G W Bush used? That terrorists are attacking the US "because they hate our democracy and freedom?" The world has moved on from such delusional and irrational thinking, you know.
 

Auberon

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Yea, maybe he is. But he is only the President, and in Iran, the President does not have the final say, the ayatollahs do. And I haven't heard that the majority of the ayatollahs want war with Israel. Instead, the very fact that we're discussing Israel striking Iran's nuke facilities and not vice versa is proof enough of Iran's pacifist attitude towards war.
I ll take it you haven't been following the news for quite some years now then. The Ayatollahs support Hezbollah, issue statements calling Israel a cancerous tumour and the holocaust a big lie. Their "pacifist" attitude towards war doesn't stop them from supporting terrorists like Hamas.

What option did it have? How about implementing the UN resolution that created Israel in 1948? Let's not mince words here. Israel is an artificial state just like Pakistan, in fact it's much worse. If a part of India were broken off in 1947, and gifted away to Gypsies who haven't had any ties with the subcontinent for centuries, and subsequently, the gypsies barricaded the Indians living there in refugee camps for decades, we'd be just as pissed off as the Palestinians are.
What prevented the Palestinians from declaring independence in 48 when Israel did? They didn't want Palestine, they wanted the whole of Israel.



I'm talking about the modern state of Iran. When we say that India has never started any war, we refer to the modern republic of India, don't we? Same analogy.
They do worse, they sponsor actors of terrorism.

So if Pakistan issues a statement to Indian Muslims to overthrow the "infidel" Indian government in Delhi, that is reason enough for India to go to war against Pakistan? What kind of silly reasoning is this?
If they supply weapons to rebels in India to revolt against the govt., yes, it bloody well is.



Your statement, Ayatollahs will wipe out the Zionist Regime.


thisMake up your mind.
And mine, questioning the peaceful tendencies of the Ayatollahs. Fail to see the contradiction. You are talking about how the Iranians will wipe out the Zionist Regime, I am asking how their "peaceful attitude" fits in with their views regardig wiping out Israel.



Isn't that the same reasoning that G W Bush used? That terrorists are attacking the US "because they hate our democracy and freedom?"
Strawman, whats Bush got to do with Pallies hatred of Israel?

The world has moved on from such delusional and irrational thinking, you know
Classic, better and better, down to ad hominems now?
 

Singh

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Pallies don't want their state, they want to finish Israel. They hate Israelis more than they love their kids.
And you have what proof for such a statement ? The actions of Hamas ?

All nations agree that the only way Israel can hope for peace is if it implements the 2 state solutions.
 

Known_Unknown

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I ll take it you haven't been following the news for quite some years now then. The Ayatollahs support Hezbollah, issue statements calling Israel a cancerous tumour and the holocaust a big lie. Their "pacifist" attitude towards war doesn't stop them from supporting terrorists like Hamas.
Hamas was elected by popular vote in the occupied territories. Does that make all Palestinians terrorists now?

What prevented the Palestinians from declaring independence in 48 when Israel did? They didn't want Palestine, they wanted the whole of Israel.
Of course they did! The British snatched away their land and gave it to foreigners, what do you think they should have wanted?!

However, being a realist, I do see that there's no way of turning back the clock now. It's not 1948 anymore, and Israel is not just going to go away. In that light, it is but crystal clear that the only solution to the problem is to ensure a separate Palestinian state. Let me remind you that throughout the years, it has been Israel which has refused to grant the Palestinians their own state, preferring them to live as refugees. Many peace accords brokered by the US, including the Camp David summit were not implemented because Israel proposed ridiculous conditions, even though the idea of a Palestinian state in those accords was a very watered down one from the UN resolutions. Israel wants the palestinians to always live as a subjugated people under its protection, and refuses to consider their future as a sovereign state.

And this was long after the Palestinians and everyone else concerned had recognised Israel's right to exist.

They do worse, they sponsor actors of terrorism.
No one defends their support of terrorism, least of all me. But would you rather have a full fledged war involving the whole of the middle east?

If they supply weapons to rebels in India to revolt against the govt., yes, it bloody well is.
Iran supplied weapons to rebels in Iraq? That's a first. Everything that I've read about the Iran-Iraq war leads me to believe that it was Saddam's power ambitions and expansionist attitude that caused the war. Iran did not attack or even provoke Saddam to go to war.

And mine, questioning the peaceful tendencies of the Ayatollahs. Fail to see the contradiction. You are talking about how the Iranians will wipe out the Zionist Regime, I am asking how their "peaceful attitude" fits in with their views regardig wiping out Israel.
We're arguing in circles. Israel has proved to be historically expansionist (I'm talking about the State of Israel), while Iran, while pursuing the wrong means (supporting terrorism) to achieve the right objective (establishment of a Palestinian state), has yet never gone to war.

Strawman, whats Bush got to do with Pallies hatred of Israel?
It's the type of thinking that has to do with it, whether it be Bush or anyone else who has those thoughts.
 

Sailor

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I wish Bush was still President. If we are going to start nuking, I'd rather George in the Whitehouse than the Manhattan Liberals.

That day at the site where the twin towers had been when George Bush gave that speech thanking the police and firemen, he said "Thanks for making America proud again".

George Bush in the rubble of the Twin Towers addressing the police and fireman 2001.
"Thanks for making us proud again".

I was very impressed, and I'm not even an American. :usa:
 

Auberon

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And you have what proof for such a statement ? The actions of Hamas ?
No, the actions of Palestinians in supporting Hamas, their use of child bombers, their indoctrination of their own kids to hate Jews, and the glorification of these action, that is ample proof that their hatred for Israelis exceeds their love for their own kids.

All nations agree that the only way Israel can hope for peace is if it implements the 2 state solutions
By and large agree, however its not that simplistic and too many issues need to be sorted out before it can be deemed effective, including the issue of the Palestinian extremists themselves who see the sol. as a concession to the Zionist jackboot and watering down of their own cause.
 

Auberon

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Hamas was elected by popular vote in the occupied territories. Does that make all Palestinians terrorists now?
First of all, in a popular vote, their is precious little you can do when the candidate is armed and you are not :blum3: Secondly, YES, the Palestinians who do support Hamas are supporters of terrorism.


Of course they did! The British snatched away their land and gave it to foreigners, what do you think they should have wanted?!
Fair enough then, they didn't declare their independence, Israelis did. They didnt want Israelis to live there at all and haven't wanted since, too bad for them that Israel has the means to protect itself.

However, being a realist, I do see that there's no way of turning back the clock now. It's not 1948 anymore, and Israel is not just going to go away. In that light, it is but crystal clear that the only solution to the problem is to ensure a separate Palestinian state. Let me remind you that throughout the years, it has been Israel which has refused to grant the Palestinians their own state, preferring them to live as refugees. Many peace accords brokered by the US, including the Camp David summit were not implemented because Israel proposed ridiculous conditions, even though the idea of a Palestinian state in those accords was a very watered down one from the UN resolutions. Israel wants the palestinians to always live as a subjugated people under its protection, and refuses to consider their future as a sovereign state.
A look at what Palestinians and their Arab bretheren have been doing throughout the years will be beneficial.

And this was long after the Palestinians and everyone else concerned had recognised Israel's right to exist.
BS, neither HAMAS nor your Ayatollahs recognise Israel's right to exist even now.

No one defends their support of terrorism, least of all me. But would you rather have a full fledged war involving the whole of the middle east?
No, and definately not a nuke armed one at that, hence I support the destruction of Iran's nuclear facilities by any means necessary.

Iran supplied weapons to rebels in Iraq? That's a first. Everything that I've read about the Iran-Iraq war leads me to believe that it was Saddam's power ambitions and expansionist attitude that caused the war. Iran did not attack or even provoke Saddam to go to war.
Demonstrates your knowledge, reading up a bit on Kurds might help.


We're arguing in circles. Israel has proved to be historically expansionist (I'm talking about the State of Israel), while Iran, while pursuing the wrong means (supporting terrorism) to achieve the right objective (establishment of a Palestinian state), has yet never gone to war.
No we are not, your peaceful state is a supporter of killing civilians , no spin to it. Your "right objective" includes the destruction of the Israeli state.

It's the type of thinking that has to do with it, whether it be Bush or anyone else who has those thoughts.
Ah yes Bush the hatemonger argument, not worth our time.
 

Sailor

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Since that day in September 2001 there has not been another attack on US soil.
I believe that without the firm resolve of President Bush, there would have been, and further, the world's airlines that we all take for granted for our holidays would have been compromised.
All this has been achieved at great cost. But that is another story. The world was riding for a fall anyway and it was just a matter of time before 1929 caught up.

"Thanks for making us proud".
President George Bush, September 2001 :usa:

Well done Mr President.
 

kuku

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Cruise missile probably would not penetrate deep enough to destroy the underground facilities ,their accuracy may not be perfect. It would have to be an air attack using Bunker busters and possibly even using follow up strikes by Bombers to ensure that it is destroyed, but destroying the facility does not destroy the knowledge to rebuild again in the future.
With Israel, we would have seen a weapon system for the task if this was the direction they were taking, their sub launched cruise missiles are said to the a part of the nuclear deterrence.

However some nations have that requirement and have developed specific weapon systems for that task.

KEPD350

Other than this, Israel will not hesitate or fear loss of men and equipment in carrying out its missions.

However i really dont get this, Iran has achieved a balance in the region, it keeps on inflicting small cuts on Israel, Israel keeps on responding, gives them a nice topic to charge up crowds at home, Iranian Nuclear program is not aimed at Israel, the goals are much bigger.
 

Singh

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No, the actions of Palestinians in supporting Hamas, their use of child bombers, their indoctrination of their own kids to hate Jews, and the glorification of these action, that is ample proof that their hatred for Israelis exceeds their love for their own kids.
You are blaming all of Palestinians for

Supporting Hamas

Hamas polled ~440,000 votes out of ~990,000 votes and the voter turnout was 70-75%. So an absolute majority of the Palestinians do not support Hamas.
Agan disillusionment against Fatah cannot be ruled out, they have not managed to achieve anything since their previous term.

Use of Child Bombers

The more extremist of the radicals in the Hamas definitely support the use of suicide bombers. The first suicide attack took place in 1993 and iirc since 2005 none have taken place. Again you are blaming all of the Palestinians for supporting suicide bombers and rocket attacks, when they may not necessarily support such acts.
By voting in Congress in 1984, did all of India, support the riots of 1984 ?
and again Pakistanis don't mind implementing peace deals with Taliban, who suicide bombed many of their cities.

indoctrination to hate jews

Such indoctrination exists all over the world, it is quite common amongst not only the Muslims but other communities too. I see no point in singling out muslims, when their killings of jews is dwarfed by those of the europeans.

Some may call your questioning Islamic beliefs as being islamophobic too.

Glorification of these actions

Lionizing of which actions, all of the above ??
And none of this is ample proof that Palestinians hate Israelis more than the love for their kids, in fact I would say that the desire for their own statehood, and freedom from "occupation is greater" than the love for their kids. Islamic world hails them for such.

By and large agree, however its not that simplistic and too many issues need to be sorted out before it can be deemed effective, including the issue of the Palestinian extremists themselves who see the sol. as a concession to the Zionist jackboot and watering down of their own cause.
A 2-state solution as being shaped, addresses not only the simplistic but also many of the complex issues.
In addition to Palestinian extremists, one mustn't forget that the Israeli extremists will also oppose this.
 

Auberon

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You are blaming all of Palestinians for

Supporting Hamas

Hamas polled ~440,000 votes out of ~990,000 votes and the voter turnout was 70-75%. So an absolute majority of the Palestinians do not support Hamas.
Agan disillusionment against Fatah cannot be ruled out, they have not managed to achieve anything since their previous term.
The fact that not all of Palestinians voted for Hamas doesn't contradict the fact that most of them do in fact support it.

Use of Child Bombers

The more extremist of the radicals in the Hamas definitely support the use of suicide bombers. The first suicide attack took place in 1993 and iirc since 2005 none have taken place. Again you are blaming all of the Palestinians for supporting suicide bombers and rocket attacks, when they may not necessarily support such acts..
You are again using the same "but not all of them" necessarily support these acts, Israel doesn't have the luxury of contemplating the fate of those who don't while rocketshells rain down on them.

By voting in Congress in 1984, did all of India, support the riots of 1984 ?
Comparing the gen. elec. for a democracy to a support for child suicide bombers? Expected better from you.

and again Pakistanis don't mind implementing peace deals with Taliban, who suicide bombed many of their cities
I see, so because Pakistan implements peace deals with Taliban, Israel should implement peace deals with Hamas??

[
B]indoctrination to hate jews[/B]

Such indoctrination exists all over the world, it is quite common amongst not only the Muslims but other communities too. I see no point in singling out muslims, when their killings of jews is dwarfed by those of the europeans.

Some may call your questioning Islamic beliefs as being islamophobic too.
No, I was referring to the Palestinians.
Feel free to quote from my post my questioning of Islamic beliefs.

Glorification of these actions

Lionizing of which actions, all of the above ??
And none of this is ample proof that Palestinians hate Israelis more than the love for their kids, in fact I would say that the desire for their own statehood, and freedom from "occupation is greater" than the love for their kids.
Their desire is not merely their own statehood, their desire is no statehood for Israel.

Islamic world hails them for such.
Islamic world has been using them as pawns for the better of half a century now.
AND Islamic world hailing them for their condemnable actions doesn't mean Israel has to too.


A 2-state solution as being shaped, addresses not only the simplistic but also many of the complex issues.
In addition to Palestinian extremists, one mustn't forget that the Israeli extremists will also oppose this.
Yes
 

Singh

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If Israel attacks Iran then Qatar, Bahrain, Us Forces pretty much elsewhere will be affected, because Iran has been building up their missile stockpile and mind you these aint scud a and b and c' or Ds!!! Accurate of Innacurate, when pointed against a populated city it will prove to be lethal, so arab countries wouldnt want to play with them like they did with iraq.
correct.

And Lastly, taking out the SAMs with Harpies, yes possible, but does anyone think that Iran will sit Idle while its Assets are being bombed?
Absolutely not.

None if the Iranians I met have had problems with US, but they hate the US double standards on stuff.
Their double standards are well known too.

If Pakistan can have nukes, why not them? Arent Iranians sworn enemies of the Taliban and Qaeda??? This is what they have told me!
You don't need nukes to attack Taliban and Qaeda though might need to counter Hamas, and Hezbollah :wink:

I too support their quest for Nuke tech, but dont wanna see a bomb with them or for that matter anyone. Right Now, Iran has something lethal, if not as lethan as the N Bomb. Its missile Arsenal. The sole reason Israels not attacking it is because of this reason. Not only that, the US doesnt want a war to happen in the region, they aint ready for it.
I think Iranian missile arsenal is not as big a deterrent as the fact that Israel ain't no USA.
For a more technical discussion you can refer to zraver's post.

As long as US is in Afghanistan and Iraq, this is an Insurance policy for the Iranians. They will never be attacked. We Must see that the Russians, Chinese and us Indians have interests in Iran. If the US comes there, then we must as well say goodbye to their Resources!
Iran would like nothing more than to see US in Iraq and Astan, weeding out their enemies and then leave to allow the Iranians to assert themselves there.
Russian, Chinese and Indian interests in Iran are limited as of now.

Israel has a credible ABM in place, but have they been tested against a barrage of Missiles approaching against Tel Aviv?? Fine, Iran will go down, but as they say, we will take u down with us!
1. Iran doesn't have a capability to fire a "barrage of missiles".
2. Israel doesn't have a capability to stop a "barrage of missiles".

This simple logic proves that War is not feasible, rather the carrot and stick policy is!
If Israel is able to involve US, than war may be feasible. No amount of stick will work with Iran if Russia, China, EU and India are dealing with them. :)
 

Singh

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The fact that not all of Palestinians voted for Hamas doesn't contradict the fact that most of them do in fact support it.
I haven't seen any evidence to support the claimed fact. Many Palestinians support Hamas undoubtedly but do a majority or all, that you have not demonstrated.

You are again using the same "but not all of them" necessarily support these acts,
You are suggesting that all of Hamas's acts are supported by all of Palestine. This is not the case.
OTOH fact Hamas had observed a ceasefire with Israel for over 20months.

Israel doesn't have the luxury of contemplating the fate of those who don't while rocketshells rain down on them.
Israel is well within the rights to use whatever force is at its disposable to respond to attacks on its citizens or soil.
But at the same time its Israel's prerogative if it wants peace or not.

Comparing the gen. elec. for a democracy to a support for child suicide bombers? Expected better from you.
I am comparing motivations in voting for a particular party. Palestinians had to chose between Fatah which has failed to deliver, is corrupt, is a "western puppet", and Hamas.

I see, so because Pakistan implements peace deals with Taliban, Israel should implement peace deals with Hamas??
I didn't imply this. I am like many non muslims perplexed by the seeming dichotomy in the islamic world. Pakistan, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iran all exhibit such.
If Israel doesn't want peace with Hamas, its their wish. Hamas is only going to get stronger though.

No, I was referring to the Palestinians.
Feel free to quote from my post my questioning of Islamic beliefs.
I would go one step ahead and say such indoctrination exists in most of the islamic world.

Their desire is not merely their own statehood, their desire is no statehood for Israel.
The 2-state solution being endorsed by many, suggest that such is not the case. Govt of India, too believes that the Palestinians have a right to a state.
 

ahmedsid

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STAY ON TOPIC PLEASE--> Hamas is not the Issue, the Issue is Iran and How it will be attacked or How it can be attacked!
 

ahmedsid

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A Barrage of Missiles Iran cant fire, atleast now. But they got enough missiles to be a threat to Israel and stop it from attacking, I feel and atleast one or two, if gets thru the ABM, then we all know How Small Israel is and how concentrated it is!

Iran is building up its missile stockpile, and they might not be that accurate. But we all know the havoc a Missile can cause if pointed against a populated city! These are not Scuds, and are better than them in all respects. The Missiles are a Deterrent in the current time frame. It will remain so, till the day Star Wars become fully operational!
 

Singh

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A Barrage of Missiles Iran cant fire, atleast now.
how many can they fire at once ?

But they got enough missiles to be a threat to Israel and stop it from attacking, I feel and atleast one or two, if gets thru the ABM, then we all know How Small Israel is and how concentrated it is!
We all know that Iran has no ABM, how concentrated Tehran is, and that Israel has "nukes" :wink:

Iran is building up its missile stockpile, and they might not be that accurate.
how big ? how inaccurate ?

But we all know the havoc a Missile can cause if pointed against a populated city! These are not Scuds, and are better than them in all respects. The Missiles are a Deterrent in the current time frame. It will remain so, till the day Star Wars become fully operational!
Missiles are a deterrent ? I thought WMDs were. :s
 

ahmedsid

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Firstly, lets keep nukes out of the equation, because it will only be possible if Iran uses one. But yes, Israel can Nuke Iran if a couple of Missiles fall on the main cities. Yes, Tehran is a population hub, but Tehran doesnt make up Iran! But Tel Aviv coupled with some other places Make up Israel!

How many Missiles Iran has, well no one can telll, because they dont have RTI act in place I suppose ;)

How accurate, well like I told, when pointed at a big place, accuracy has scope, but its not a tactical strike Iran will hint at, they will go for a Big kill.

Iran is a highly unpredictable country, the Mullahs moves cant be calculated. I can vouch for this as I have studied about this and their Revolution in detail.

Missiles are a detternt my friend. If Not what is stopping anyone from bombing them? Is it their SUPERIOR Air Force with those F18 beating indigenous fighters? Or is it the Basij? Or is it the Revolutionary Council? ;) Even Russia or China doesnt figure much in the equation, because we know, when US or Israel wants to bomb someone, they will! Be it Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Libya or who not! Yes, its the Missiles keeping away these forces at this moment in time. Please prove so otherwise, i would humbly accept it!
 

Yusuf

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Dont forget the US in this whole thing. If the US decides it can/will live with a nuclear Iran, then the matter ends there whether Israel likes it or not. Sure a lot of money will be spent on ABMs but then thats how it will be.
But if the US decides it cannot live with a nuclear Iran at all costs, then we cannot rule out another Iraq, provided the US thinks it can take the cost of lives and money that will be involved in such an operation. Without an all out attack, it will be very difficult to completely eliminate Iranian nuke program, given the fact that the Iranians know that it can be hit from above and therefore buried everything underground and heavily fortified it.
If the US/Israel want to completely eliminate Iranian nukes/nuke program, then an invasion is probably a must.
 

ahmedsid

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http://www.inss.org.il/upload/(FILE)1232450393.pdf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This claims J10 aircraft wasreceived by Iran from PRC in 07! Then S300s in 08! How true is that? I didnt read further!

About Iranian missiles being not a threat, the other article says it will cause harm! Isnt that contradictory?

"Iran's conventionally armed missile arsenal could do significant harm but would not pose an existential danger to Israel, two prominent Israeli defense analysts say in reports due for release tomorrow (see GSN, March 5)."

And the people commenting on it are Israeli expers working on the Arrow! What can they say? that the Iranian missiles are lethal?

About 90 missiles (which i dont trust, it maybe even 30, but the PDF file is all lies, especially the J10 and S300 part!), okay, even if they have 90. there are 35 targets they identified, and what if they send atleast 40 of them towards Tel Aviv? I dont know, we will have to wait and see!
 

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