HAL Prachand - Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

[Pulkit]

http://idrw.org/hals-lch-to-commence-live-weapons-trials-by-mid-of-2016/
Fingers crossed....

 

[Kyubi]

http://idrw.org/hals-lch-to-commence-live-weapons-trials-by-mid-of-2016/
Fingers crossed....

Isn't this the right time to setup a parallel production line for LCH's until the Heli receives FoC . get the groundwork started, let all the systems be ready, with local suppliers lined up, the work should be started let the initial 5-10 LCHs be of the present IOC standards, they could be used for training pilots,
By the time LCH gains FOC, the plant would be running hot and one could even uprate the production numbers.

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[pmaitra]

Given the number of LCH that are about to be produced, it would make sense to involve Indian private companies to set up one or more assembly lines, even if it is for the main structure. That way HAL can focus on more critical projects, such as LCA, AMCA, upcoming T-50/FGFA, and a whole bunch of things that are lined up.

 

[Pulkit]

Isn't this the right time to setup a parallel production line for LCH's until the Heli receives FoC . get the groundwork started, let all the systems be ready, with local suppliers lined up, the work should be started let the initial 5-10 LCHs be of the present IOC standards, they could be used for training pilots,
By the time LCH gains FOC, the plant would be running hot and one could even uprate the production numbers.

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honestly all the things mentioned by you should have been done by now.....
They are running late not just in the development but even being ready for production on day Zero.

They should be ready to get into production the minute LCH gets the operational clearance .

They are still not over with the TD production ......

Given the number of LCH that are about to be produced, it would make sense to involve Indian private companies to set up one or more assembly lines, even if it is for the main structure. That way HAL can focus on more critical projects, such as LCA, AMCA, upcoming T-50/FGFA, and a whole bunch of things that are lined up.

I will take a different route just my point of view....

There are different types of assemblies few small and few big which on the later side of the production line as assembled together to get the desired product.
They all have different time span.
Few take more time and few can be assembled quickly which leads to delays and increase in idle time.

Sub assemblies consuming more time should be outsourced to the private vendor for which no new assembly line needs to be set.
This will make it ideal scenario and we can have a better production rate.

The type of assembly line HAL uses is uni in nature which means one line for one sub assembly .

They try and match the rate by putting more man power but that does not work.

Hence we can outsource few components and there assemblies to a private vendor instead of an entire assembly line to save the cost of it.
Assembly line setting consumes a lot of funds and at this stage it is not optimum.

If we get any foreign orders then we can plan of it....



Any one from HAL can correct me if I have stated anything wrong shared this based on my interaction with one of the project managers who has worked in HAL long back.

Note:Has Sri lanka ordered LCH?????

 

[pmaitra]

@Pulkit, HAL already outsources components for LCA to private vendors. I don't know to what extent and I don't know whether this is also true for LCH. The supply chain might not be mature. Your suggestion is good. Anything that gets the production rate up should be implemented.

 

[WolfPack86]

hope lch weapons trial goes smoothly.

 

[jackprince]

Thanks but yes I believe they should be.
and thanks again for taking it literally I can understand that.

If shooting them will work others perform then lets do that.

They have no fear of punishment hence they can delay things.

They want all the hikes pay revision holidays but one should not expect anything in return.

Our taxes are being wasted and there is no accountability.

So yes you can call me names and make fun but if Shooting them make them work then lets do it.



I agree lets do that.........

They should be bombarded as to get things in order drastic measures need to be taken.....


You can laugh and make fun but remember this is going to cost us badly in the long run.

LCA Delayed
LCH Delayed
Arjun Delayed
LUH Delayed
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..



List goes on and on whats left is "Delayed"... The question is why? because there babus do not want to move their AS***.....

So, you are ready to shoot the Generals and Air Marshals too, I hope? You perhaps actually need to learn the timeline of each development and actual process all the development had to go through. All those have been discussed to death, and have been proven that the armed forces share the same amount of blame as DRDO. So you are gonna shoot those Genrails and Air Narshals too, are you?

 

[tejas warrior]

hope lch weapons trial goes smoothly.

Experience gained on Rudra should help.

 

[Pulkit]

@Pulkit, HAL already outsources components for LCA to private vendors. I don't know to what extent and I don't know whether this is also true for LCH. The supply chain might not be mature. Your suggestion is good. Anything that gets the production rate up should be implemented.

they are not outsourcing any of the major components...
They are outsourcing small components like nuts bolts (fasteners) brackets joints clips etc.
which does not make even the smallest of the assemblies.
For Example:
they can have an entire Frame assembled by one supplier individually instead of making it up at the assembly line and holding back production.

In terms of LCH I am not sure that they have even had a discussion with any of the private partners on various parts that can be offshored/outsourced.

There are a huge number of sub assemblies which can be directly procured from a private vendor instead of ordering parts from various other vendors.

This will increase the accountability reduce headache of replacing it later on and also reduce cost.

One of the Private manufacturer whom I worked for (in a way) was earlier ordering a sensor from one vendor its holder from another nuts and bolts from another then to fit them they had to use some other fasteners.

this was causing a lot of issues while fitting and was leading to concessions/defects.

Later on they asked the sensor manufacture to provide the entire kit in a assembly which can be simply put into the ongoing assembly .

This reduced a lot of defects....


I doubt HAL can go in s much depth to resolve issues.

 

[Pulkit]

So, you are ready to shoot the Generals and Air Marshals too, I hope? You perhaps actually need to learn the timeline of each development and actual process all the development had to go through. All those have been discussed to death, and have been proven that the armed forces share the same amount of blame as DRDO. So you are gonna shoot those Genrails and Air Narshals too, are you?

I do not understand your interpretation of what I have stated .
Yes IAF DRDO ADA HAL are equally responsible and they all should be brought to book and when It comes to playing with the safety of entire nation they should be hanged for all these delays.....

In regard to the timelines of development I have worked on an aircraft design and development and I very well know all about it....
I understand when they are deliberately delaying something and when there is a genuine delay.

Design and development of a A/C around the world 20-25 Years
India did it in 33 years .

Leave the delay and other things apart it is still done in very good time .


What is not good here is the fun they are doing for last 5 years ......

 

[Kyubi]

they are not outsourcing any of the major components...
They are outsourcing small components like nuts bolts (fasteners) brackets joints clips etc.
which does not make even the smallest of the assemblies.
For Example:
they can have an entire Frame assembled by one supplier individually instead of making it up at the assembly line and holding back production.

In terms of LCH I am not sure that they have even had a discussion with any of the private partners on various parts that can be offshored/outsourced.

There are a huge number of sub assemblies which can be directly procured from a private vendor instead of ordering parts from various other vendors.

This will increase the accountability reduce headache of replacing it later on and also reduce cost.

One of the Private manufacturer whom I worked for (in a way) was earlier ordering a sensor from one vendor its holder from another nuts and bolts from another then to fit them they had to use some other fasteners.

this was causing a lot of issues while fitting and was leading to concessions/defects.

Later on they asked the sensor manufacture to provide the entire kit in a assembly which can be simply put into the ongoing assembly .

This reduced a lot of defects....


I doubt HAL can go in s much depth to resolve issues.

An example for delegating certain components for private companies to manufacture is the vertical stabiliser fin and rudder which are two separate pieces, HAL could outsource in conjunction with NAL which is the principal technological partner here to have it manufactured by an Indian company, NAL could help them with the tooling and tech.



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[Kyubi]

I've made a mistake by writing the above comment which is about LCA TEJAS, whereas the thread is about LCH, but the point i was trying to make was to initiate a production strategy to combat the slow deliverables of HAL, Concurrency might have been in place with respect to development and production phases but i guess there is not a very good synergy between the two. Many people might argue that this view is pure bunkum.
But lets face it, we cannot succumb to delays, BS reasons etc etc.... I'd tell you not matter which PM is there the dalals in SouthBlock will always play spoilsport. they will take umpteen measures to stop our indigenisation of weapon systems.

 

[Chinmoy]

they are not outsourcing any of the major components...
They are outsourcing small components like nuts bolts (fasteners) brackets joints clips etc.
which does not make even the smallest of the assemblies.
For Example:
they can have an entire Frame assembled by one supplier individually instead of making it up at the assembly line and holding back production.

In terms of LCH I am not sure that they have even had a discussion with any of the private partners on various parts that can be offshored/outsourced.

There are a huge number of sub assemblies which can be directly procured from a private vendor instead of ordering parts from various other vendors.

This will increase the accountability reduce headache of replacing it later on and also reduce cost.

One of the Private manufacturer whom I worked for (in a way) was earlier ordering a sensor from one vendor its holder from another nuts and bolts from another then to fit them they had to use some other fasteners.

this was causing a lot of issues while fitting and was leading to concessions/defects.

Later on they asked the sensor manufacture to provide the entire kit in a assembly which can be simply put into the ongoing assembly .

This reduced a lot of defects....


I doubt HAL can go in s much depth to resolve issues.

Things are not always as simple and easy to do as it is to say. Untill and unless you have a firm knowledge on the demand you have to meet and most importantly the specific of the product you need, how you could ask a third party to build up that part? Lets say HAL does outsource the simple rotor blade manufacturing to say TATA. What demand do they have as of now? Six blades at max in a year or two? Do you think any of the pvt firm would be interested in such an order? Moreover they are also not quiet sure that whether the next demand would be of the same specific or it would change.
Right now when its still in development process, you would have to do it in house only. Only after receiving a firm order you could go in for outsourcing. The main problem right now is not the manufacturing. Its the timeline taken for each and every test.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

@Adioz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi_Caliber_Individual_Weapon_System

 

[Pulkit]

An example for delegating certain components for private companies to manufacture is the vertical stabiliser fin and rudder which are two separate pieces, HAL could outsource in conjunction with NAL which is the principal technological partner here to have it manufactured by an Indian company, NAL could help them with the tooling and tech.



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Thanks for backing but curious to know the sub assmebly which form part of rudder and vertical stabilizer ?

I've made a mistake by writing the above comment which is about LCA TEJAS, whereas the thread is about LCH, but the point i was trying to make was to initiate a production strategy to combat the slow deliverables of HAL, Concurrency might have been in place with respect to development and production phases but i guess there is not a very good synergy between the two. Many people might argue that this view is pure bunkum.
But lets face it, we cannot succumb to delays, BS reasons etc etc.... I'd tell you not matter which PM is there the dalals in SouthBlock will always play spoilsport. they will take umpteen measures to stop our indigenisation of weapon systems.

NO need to apologize MESSAGE RECEIVED LOUD AND CLEAR.

 

[Pulkit]

Things are not always as simple and easy to do as it is to say. Untill and unless you have a firm knowledge on the demand you have to meet and most importantly the specific of the product you need, how you could ask a third party to build up that part? Lets say HAL does outsource the simple rotor blade manufacturing to say TATA. What demand do they have as of now? Six blades at max in a year or two? Do you think any of the pvt firm would be interested in such an order? Moreover they are also not quiet sure that whether the next demand would be of the same specific or it would change.
Right now when its still in development process, you would have to do it in house only. Only after receiving a firm order you could go in for outsourcing. The main problem right now is not the manufacturing. Its the timeline taken for each and every test.

honestly it is that simple.
When a design sheet is created you know exactly what you want and in what quantity.

When it comes to rotor blades they cannot be easily manufactured and trust me they cost alot so there numbers being low does not impact on the number of people ready to manufacture as once the order is placed it is placed in batch not 6-7-10 at a time....
so if i am manufacturing say 30 LCH in a year i will place an order of 120 blades with me.
And if you have worked with metals or composites you will understand how much time it takes to manufacture one blade.
then comes the testing phase which is not done like other quality checks but per piece.again time consuming.

we are nt talking about the time before FOC but you can have parteners ready to ramp up production or as i said earlier on day zero.....

 

[nitish.sarangi]

Our procurement and defense manufacturing policies are probably more stringent but not mature enough. And there are lapses due to which private sector does not want to end up in a legal tussle with the govt. For eg, If private sector vendors have there own assembly chain to create doors for LCH, which sources few low end materials from China,though it will save a lot of money to private sector and overall product, it would cause legal trouble for them. The govt. should mandate that low end equipment like nuts,bolts etc sourced from countries like china can be acceptable. Yes the primary quality control and responsibility will lie with the OEM.

 

[Chinmoy]

honestly it is that simple.
When a design sheet is created you know exactly what you want and in what quantity.

When it comes to rotor blades they cannot be easily manufactured and trust me they cost alot so there numbers being low does not impact on the number of people ready to manufacture as once the order is placed it is placed in batch not 6-7-10 at a time....
so if i am manufacturing say 30 LCH in a year i will place an order of 120 blades with me.
And if you have worked with metals or composites you will understand how much time it takes to manufacture one blade.
then comes the testing phase which is not done like other quality checks but per piece.again time consuming.

we are nt talking about the time before FOC but you can have parteners ready to ramp up production or as i said earlier on day zero.....

I am not at all saying that manufacturing even a single bolt for aviation industry is a simple job. But look at the current scenario we are facing right now. Leave alone FOC, what is the status of IAC's. HAL or DRDO does need 15 years atleast even to get a small order from user. In such case how could you expect the pvt players to get into the pitch with them?
All the pvt companies right now are more interested in JV's with foreign OEM. So unless and untill HAL, DRDO, ARDE does have a firm order placed with them, how on earth they could approach a pvt firm and on what basis. Just keep yourself in place of a pvt company and consider this point. In the current scenario, would you divert your fun on a production line to manufacture a part of a system which is still in testing phase? I'd sure want something solid in horizon to look after before I commit myself to any big investment.

 

[Pulkit]

I am not at all saying that manufacturing even a single bolt for aviation industry is a simple job. But look at the current scenario we are facing right now. Leave alone FOC, what is the status of IAC's. HAL or DRDO does need 15 years atleast even to get a small order from user.

HAL DRDO being the PSU have the minimum initial order upfront secondly they are not the profit making body .They run on the taxpayers money. Oders/requirement is placed at the very beginning if they meet the requirement they have the deal.

In such case how could you expect the pvt players to get into the pitch with them?

Private players like Tata and Reliance are ready to pitch in its just they do not want to loose there monopoly.

All the pvt companies right now are more interested in JV's with foreign OEM.

OEM with out orders????

So unless and untill HAL, DRDO, ARDE does have a firm order placed with them, how on earth they could approach a pvt firm and on what basis.

Its market evaluation you need to understand what will be in demand in near future and invest accordingly if you wait for orders then ur competitors will surely win

Just keep yourself in place of a pvt company and consider this point. In the current scenario, would you divert your fun on a production line to manufacture a part of a system which is still in testing phase? I'd sure want something solid in horizon to look after before I commit myself to any big investment.

to make big you need to invest big + development is costly which is done by DRDO production is still cheaper.
If I get even initial inimum order I will jump in.... but that's just me...

 

[Chinmoy]

HAL DRDO being the PSU have the minimum initial order upfront secondly they are not the profit making body .They run on the taxpayers money. Oders/requirement is placed at the very beginning if they meet the requirement they have the deal. Private players like Tata and Reliance are ready to pitch in its just they do not want to loose there monopoly. OEM with out orders???? Its market evaluation you need to understand what will be in demand in near future and invest accordingly if you wait for orders then ur competitors will surely win
to make big you need to invest big + development is costly which is done by DRDO production is still cheaper.
If I get even initial inimum order I will jump in.... but that's just me...

Do they have a minimum order for LCH as of now and is there a timeline for when it would be inducted?
TATA is already doing a JV with Boeing and it had came up with kestrel and SPH. So I don't think they would be apprehensive against building up a production unit for LCH if they get a lucrative and firm order. Same may be the case with Reliance.
Kalyani is with Rafael for JV of missile system. And as far as my knowledge serve me, BArrack and Spyder in anvil for induction.
Now speaking of market, only recently it has been seen that armed forces are showing interests in something desi with the faith shown in AR & SPH. As far as aviation industry is concerned, apprehensions are still there and in mid of all these, I don't see pvt players to jump in the ground. Right now I think TATA would be more interested to manufacture parts for Boeing instead of HAL, if orders are placed.