HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Light Observation Helicopter (LOH)

[Flying Dagger]

Then buy all 384 Ka226



Talking about buying 2 platforms for same role and asking me to raise worthy argument. Huh.

Why just 384 ? Ka 226 T unlike LUH it fits the role for Navy too and we will have lot more requirement in light heli category in future... decades to comes.

Damn go for it if you want just one type it fits the bill. Else the new Airbus chopper H160 or Panther whatever you can afford.

 

[Gessler]

Why just 384 ? Ka 226 T unlike LUH it fits the role for Navy too and we will have lot more requirement in light heli category in future... decades to comes.

Damn go for it if you want just one type it fits the bill. Else the new Airbus chopper H160 or Panther whatever you can afford.

Lol, thanks for showing your true colours.

It was never about there being 2 distinct requirements that could only be fulfilled by 2 different types.

It was just about drooling over any non-HAL product. I've been critical of DPSUs in my own right, but never so mindlessly as this.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Why just 384 ? Ka 226 T unlike LUH it fits the role for Navy too and we will have lot more requirement in light heli category in future... decades to comes.

Damn go for it if you want just one type it fits the bill. Else the new Airbus chopper H160 or Panther whatever you can afford.

Navy has hal dhruv i guess why they need ka 226

 

[Srinivas_K]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Lol, thanks for showing your true colours.

It was never about there being 2 distinct requirements that could only be fulfilled by 2 different types.

It was just about drooling over any non-HAL product. I've been critical of DPSUs in my own right, but never so mindlessly as this.

True colors ? You wanted to buy 384 .. ka 226 T

I just mentioned 111 Navy requirement too.. for which it is suitable. And this got you burnt upside down..

And who said there were two distinct requirements don't make things up ...

 

[Gessler]

True colors ? You wanted to buy 384 .. ka 226 T

What I wanted was for us to have 384 utility helos of a single type.

When it is crystal-clear that neither IAF nor AAC stipulated any requirement for a twin-engine helo, it is pointless to procure a costlier helo for fulfilling the role which as per RFI could have been done by a cheaper one.

Cheaper because of two things:

• Even if we assume rest everything costs the same, for 384 helos we'd only have to buy 384 Turbomeca engines with HAL LUH. For Ka226 we'll have to buy 768 Turbomeca engines. Please tell me how that doesn't balloon the price.
• Second, indigenous content in HAL LUH would always be much higher, on top of that we wouldn't owe any royalties or TOT licensing fees. Most of the money we spend goes right back into Indian Government coffers (HAL is majority Govt-owned) instead of significant amount flying off into Russian pockets.

The only way the G2G deal for Ka226T makes sense is if you consider it a political deal, which it is.

You are unwilling to accept that and instead are making up imaginary requirements like better performance in hills, VIP escort role, better handling blah blah blah.

I'm asking you a simple question: if any of these were real requirements that made real difference, why didn't the RFIs reflect that ?? Why would military not make it mandatory for it to be twin-engine helo in order to qualify ?? Even if there were minimal requirements for twin-engine helo in limited numbers, why wasn't a separate RFI pursued ?

The RFIs and ASQRs were all tabled by fools and only you know the real requirements?

What you're proposing is akin to saying we are buying 36 Rafale, but since Typhoon has some insignificant feature that Rafale doesn't, like a swashplate radar, we should buy 13 Rafale and 13 Typhoon instead.

You have to understand that even the bonkers Arab countries that do these type of Zoo purchases (like Qatar) do it for completely political reasons - to gain favour with certain countries by pumping billions. Not because its an optimal way to build and maintain a fleet.

And who said there were two distinct requirements don't make things up ...

I hope you are joking.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

What I wanted was for us to have 384 utility helos of a single type.

When it is crystal-clear that neither IAF nor AAC stipulated any requirement for a twin-engine helo, it is pointless to procure a costlier helo for fulfilling the role which as per RFI could have been done by a cheaper one.

Cheaper because of two things:

• Even if we assume rest everything costs the same, for 384 helos we'd only have to buy 384 Turbomeca engines with HAL LUH. For Ka226 we'll have to buy 768 Turbomeca engines. Please tell me how that doesn't balloon the price.
• Second, indigenous content in HAL LUH would always be much higher, on top of that we wouldn't owe any royalties or TOT licensing fees. Most of the money we spend goes right back into Indian Government coffers (HAL is majority Govt-owned) instead of significant amount flying off into Russian pockets.

The only way the G2G deal for Ka226T makes sense is if you consider it a political deal, which it is.

You are unwilling to accept that and instead are making up imaginary requirements like better performance in hills, VIP escort role, better handling blah blah blah.

I'm asking you a simple question: if any of these were real requirements that made real difference, why didn't the RFIs reflect that ?? Why would military not make it mandatory for it to be twin-engine helo in order to qualify ?? Even if there were minimal requirements for twin-engine helo in limited numbers, why wasn't a separate RFI pursued ?

The RFIs and ASQRs were all tabled by fools and only you know the real requirements?

What you're proposing is akin to saying we are buying 36 Rafale, but since Typhoon has some insignificant feature that Rafale doesn't, like a swashplate radar, we should buy 13 Rafale and 13 Typhoon instead.

You have to understand that even the bonkers Arab countries that do these type of Zoo purchases (like Qatar) do it for completely political reasons - to gain favour with certain countries by pumping billions. Not because its an optimal way to build and maintain a fleet.



I hope you are joking.

LUH should be more than adequate for those needs. Just pour more money into that program and get something good out of it. Surely, it can be modified to replace the cheetahs, and also carry out multi role Recce ops.
Indias at a point where it does not need a foreign vendor for something as less technologically advanced such as an luh. Would be a waste of opportunity to throw it away.

 

[Sridhar_TN]

Interesting as to why there’s so little promotional videos done on luh or alh mk3. No videos, nothing->HAL marketing.

 

[Flying Dagger]

What I wanted was for us to have 384 utility helos of a single type.

When it is crystal-clear that neither IAF nor AAC stipulated any requirement for a twin-engine helo, it is pointless to procure a costlier helo for fulfilling the role which as per RFI could have been done by a cheaper one.

Cheaper because of two things:

• Even if we assume rest everything costs the same, for 384 helos we'd only have to buy 384 Turbomeca engines with HAL LUH. For Ka226 we'll have to buy 768 Turbomeca engines. Please tell me how that doesn't balloon the price.
• Second, indigenous content in HAL LUH would always be much higher, on top of that we wouldn't owe any royalties or TOT licensing fees. Most of the money we spend goes right back into Indian Government coffers (HAL is majority Govt-owned) instead of significant amount flying off into Russian pockets.

The only way the G2G deal for Ka226T makes sense is if you consider it a political deal, which it is.

You are unwilling to accept that and instead are making up imaginary requirements like better performance in hills, VIP escort role, better handling blah blah blah.

I'm asking you a simple question: if any of these were real requirements that made real difference, why didn't the RFIs reflect that ?? Why would military not make it mandatory for it to be twin-engine helo in order to qualify ?? Even if there were minimal requirements for twin-engine helo in limited numbers, why wasn't a separate RFI pursued ?

The RFIs and ASQRs were all tabled by fools and only you know the real requirements?

What you're proposing is akin to saying we are buying 36 Rafale, but since Typhoon has some insignificant feature that Rafale doesn't, like a swashplate radar, we should buy 13 Rafale and 13 Typhoon instead.

You have to understand that even the bonkers Arab countries that do these type of Zoo purchases (like Qatar) do it for completely political reasons - to gain favour with certain countries by pumping billions. Not because its an optimal way to build and maintain a fleet.



I hope you are joking.

You are back to delusional made up stuff from your part again....

And why just 384+ of one type bring Navy too which needs a lUH but in twin engine configuration.

What you are proposing is saying we should not buy Rafale because we have cheaper single engine Tejas that can do the role. Well it can but who does it better ?

If the cost , operational cost is almost same why does that matter to you if we are buying two engines or one... That's absurd and stupid .

And remember both engines are different and the cost of those two engines will be very slightly higher than one engine of LUH. And that's fine considering the advantage it brings to the table.

and regarding Ka having better handling and survivability is blah blah to you..
Guess what the pilots doesn't think so and you are not one.

And if the LUH was so revolutionary and the exp with Dhruva etc was so stunning army/airforce wouldn't have asked for another type in the first place.

But then they are the fools it is you all knowing Rambo who can tell them what to do?

FAct is they are offering a fair deal to LUH by getting 200 of those apart from 200 ka 226 T and that's called hedging. IF HAL LUH turns out good it can get more orders in future and if not they can always order more Ka 226 T .

Defense is always political in nature but does that mean we are buying Ka 226 T for only political reason naah... But that also mean there are other option like Airbus for us to consider if we want and there is always a right mix of cost , politics , capability we need that makes a deal work.

 

[janme]

What is the problem now?

 

[Tuco]

What is the problem now?

Tail rotar has vaastu issues.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Tail rotar has vaastu issues.

Na factories orientation is wrong saar
Change factory building orientation

 

[Gessler]

You are back to delusional made up stuff from your part again....

I'm the one making up stuff?

And why just 384+ of one type bring Navy too which needs a lUH but in twin engine configuration.

Arey forget Navy NUH. They're competition not getting anywhere and right now their looking at leasing Airbus Panther.

What you are proposing is saying we should not buy Rafale because we have cheaper single engine Tejas that can do the role. Well it can but who does it better ?

Nope, such terrible comparison.

What next? You will imply LUH and Mi-17 are in same class?

The point is, the RFI was perfectly okay with a helo like Eurocopter Fennec - which is in EXACT SAME WEIGHT & PERFORMANCE CLASS AS HAL LUH, in fact it's slightly worse.

This whole thing about twin-engine, better handling blah blah is something you are making up to justify a purchase AFTER the fact. If those were original requirements, then Fennec would never have been allowed to compete.

You've been utterly unable to address this point.

If the cost , operational cost is almost same why does that matter to you if we are buying two engines or one... That's absurd and stupid .

Operational cost of twin-engine helo is same as single engine ?

If you are feeling insane, do get help

And remember both engines are different and the cost of those two engines will be very slightly higher than one engine of LUH.

So you think maintenance cost of a engine is directly proportional to how much power it produces?



And as of frequency, FYI, all Turbomeca engines have more or less similar TBO figures.

and regarding Ka having better handling and survivability is blah blah to you..
Guess what the pilots doesn't think so and you are not one.

Yeah, that's why they forgot to put it in RFI, until uncle Flying Dagger reminded them

And if the LUH was so revolutionary and the exp with Dhruva etc was so stunning army/airforce wouldn't have asked for another type in the first place.

But then they are the fools it is you all knowing Rambo who can tell them what to do?

Go read some history.

Look up how MiG-29s came in when what IAF wanted was more Mirage-2000s. How Kilos came in when what they wanted was more Type-209s. Maybe if you gain some perspective on how forces were historically stared down by political masters, you'd act a bit more informed.

FAct is they are offering a fair deal to LUH by getting 200 of those apart from 200 ka 226 T and that's called hedging. IF HAL LUH turns out good it can get more orders in future and if not they can always order more Ka 226 T .

Defense is always political in nature but does that mean we are buying Ka 226 T for only political reason naah... But that also mean there are other option like Airbus for us to consider if we want and there is always a right mix of cost , politics , capability we need that makes a deal work.

Either something is political that you have to pay exorbitant amounts to buy it even if it doesn't make any sense (like Ka-226, Mig-29, AK203, Vikramditya, Talwar Batch-3, Kilo etc list is endless), or something is so tactically important that you have to buy it even when US threatening sanctions (like S400).

You can't have it both ways buddy.

At least make up your mind as to what your argument is.

Is it political? Or is it tactically relevant? If it was relevant why scrap earlier RFI (where Fennec was frontrunner) and go for G2G? In case of Rafale we did it as numbers had to be reduced as license production scrapped, but here numbers were same, and none of the license production rules changed, so why?

In one post you say its because there is legit requirement, in one post you say its for hedging bets, in another you say deals always political

WTF, make up your mind

 

[Flying Dagger]

I'm the one making up stuff?



Arey forget Navy NUH. They're competition not getting anywhere and right now their looking at leasing Airbus Panther.



Nope, such terrible comparison.

What next? You will imply LUH and Mi-17 are in same class?

The point is, the RFI was perfectly okay with a helo like Eurocopter Fennec - which is in EXACT SAME WEIGHT & PERFORMANCE CLASS AS HAL LUH, in fact it's slightly worse.

This whole thing about twin-engine, better handling blah blah is something you are making up to justify a purchase AFTER the fact. If those were original requirements, then Fennec would never have been allowed to compete.

You've been utterly unable to address this point.



Operational cost of twin-engine helo is same as single engine ?

If you are feeling insane, do get help



So you think maintenance cost of a engine is directly proportional to how much power it produces?



And as of frequency, FYI, all Turbomeca engines have more or less similar TBO figures.



Yeah, that's why they forgot to put it in RFI, until uncle Flying Dagger reminded them





Go read some history.

Look up how MiG-29s came in when what IAF wanted was more Mirage-2000s. How Kilos came in when what they wanted was more Type-209s. Maybe if you gain some perspective on how forces were historically stared down by political masters, you'd act a bit more informed.



Either something is political that you have to pay exorbitant amounts to buy it even if it doesn't make any sense (like Ka-226, Mig-29, AK203, Vikramditya, Talwar Batch-3, Kilo etc list is endless), or something is so tactically important that you have to buy it even when US threatening sanctions (like S400).

You can't have it both ways buddy.

At least make up your mind as to what your argument is.

Is it political? Or is it tactically relevant? If it was relevant why scrap earlier RFI (where Fennec was frontrunner) and go for G2G? In case of Rafale we did it as numbers had to be reduced as license production scrapped, but here numbers were same, and none of the license production rules changed, so why?

In one post you say its because there is legit requirement, in one post you say its for hedging bets, in another you say deals always political

WTF, make up your mind

Dear Nephew /Niece All I know is those who have to procure don't give two heeds abt crybaby like you.

If they believed so much in HAL product they would have inducted ALH .

And navy leased Panther ? Again made up stuff.... A proposal by someone didn't mean it's done.

Don't make up stuff like you have been doing .

Read what ?

Mirage were actually bought on whim of our royal prince of that time IAF on the contrary was negotiating for Jags etc.

Mig 29 costed less than half the price for Mirage 2k and with easy payment option. In any case they were and still are beast. But we didn't had money to even pay for their upgrade and buy more. They provided us one sided BVR advantage during Kargil.

What ABT them ? Crybaby

In anycase bringing offtopic stuff and nonsense is your speciality.

We aren't overpaying for Ka 226 T and it is better.


Having a legit req and fulfilling that req by hedging while giving domestic industry a chance do not cross each other out my little nephew .

 

[Sridhar_TN]

We aren't overpaying for Ka 226 T and it is better.

It’s not suited(very bad) for high altitude ops afaik. Luh is proving more suitable for that role as seen with high alt tests.
Also, the more money that is poured into the program, the better results one gets. LUH is very much less advanced than a fighter jet program, and investing more into it is better. You come out with various upgrades from engines to avionics over time, and finally becomes a very mature asset just like alh mk3’s. The ka226. program has come a long way and you can see the incremental upgrades over the past 20 years. It’s India option to lose on indigenous tech if it give a the luh program away.

 

[Gessler]

If they believed so much in HAL product they would have inducted ALH .

No. of ALH inducted in Armed Forces - 300+
No. of Ka226 inducted in Armed Forces - 0

HAL rolls out 300th Advanced Light Helicopter-Dhruv, Ground Run of LCH also done

Speaking on the occasion, HAL CMD, R Madhavan said ALH never looked back from the day when the prototype took its maiden flight on August 30, 1992 and has "evolved into a world class helicopter with its unparalleled performance".

economictimes.indiatimes.com

And navy leased Panther ? Again made up stuff.... A proposal by someone didn't mean it's done.

It's not a proposal, its an official RFI.

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default/files/Lease%20NUH%20RFI%20Version%206%20dated%2015%20Apr%2021.pdf

I know you neither understand nor care about RFI (i think I know why, cuz it shreds all your assertions into pieces )

It may or may not be Panther, but certainly can't be Ka226 as RFI requires the type to already be operational in naval role.

Read what ?

Mirage were actually bought on whim of our royal prince of that time IAF on the contrary was negotiating for Jags etc.

Jags & Mirage are not the same role

Jag is underpowered & useless in air-to-air combat. It's a strike/CAS aircraft.

M2K was thoroughly multi-role.

Mig 29 costed less than half the price for Mirage 2k

And about 25% of the serviceability rate. xD

and with easy payment option.

Yeah cuz Soviets were extracting a price in a different way.

In any case they were and still are beast. But we didn't had money to even pay for their upgrade and buy more. They provided us one sided BVR advantage during Kargil.

LOL, cuz PAF F-16s didn't even have AMRAAMs at the time. And why couldn't Mirage have done the same had they been available in enough numbers? You do realize the Super 530D was hands down a better BVR weapon than any Russian missile? And infamous unreliability of Soviet radar?

And unlike the MiG-29, the M2K actually has a record of shooting down F-16.

We aren't overpaying for Ka 226 T and it is better.

We are overpaying (I have showed how) and whatever area its better in, is a capability we did not originally require (I have also showed that).

You've been unable to show how we aren't overpaying. Show me comparative maintenance cost of 2 x Arrius engines as being lower than a single Ardiden engine?

And you've been unable to show me how its better? Show me a single piece of official IAF literature (RFI, AoN, ASQR, anything) that says we need twin engine at this altitude?

So yeah, my assertion that Ka226 is purely a political deal is backed up by sufficient evidence. If you want to show its a legit requirement, burden of proof is on you. And so far you've failed spectacularly - to the point where you are ready to admit that it was a political deal and now desperately trying to find arguments as to why political deals are/were always good.

ROFL.

Having a legit req and fulfilling that req by hedging while giving domestic industry a chance do not cross each other out my little nephew .

It do when you are scrapping a legit competition to give G2G dear unkul.

 

[Flying Dagger]

No. of ALH inducted in Armed Forces - 300+
No. of Ka226 inducted in Armed Forces - 0

HAL rolls out 300th Advanced Light Helicopter-Dhruv, Ground Run of LCH also done

Speaking on the occasion, HAL CMD, R Madhavan said ALH never looked back from the day when the prototype took its maiden flight on August 30, 1992 and has "evolved into a world class helicopter with its unparalleled performance".

economictimes.indiatimes.com

It's not a proposal, its an official RFI.

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/default/files/Lease%20NUH%20RFI%20Version%206%20dated%2015%20Apr%2021.pdf

I know you neither understand nor care about RFI (i think I know why, cuz it shreds all your assertions into pieces )

It may or may not be Panther, but certainly can't be Ka226 as RFI requires the type to already be operational in naval role.



Jags & Mirage are not the same role

Jag is underpowered & useless in air-to-air combat. It's a strike/CAS aircraft.

M2K was thoroughly multi-role.



And about 25% of the serviceability rate. xD



Yeah cuz Soviets were extracting a price in a different way.




LOL, cuz PAF F-16s didn't even have AMRAAMs at the time. And why couldn't Mirage have done the same had they been available in enough numbers? You do realize the Super 530D was hands down a better BVR weapon than any Russian missile? And infamous unreliability of Soviet radar?

And unlike the MiG-29, the M2K actually has a record of shooting down F-16.



We are overpaying (I have showed how) and whatever area its better in, is a capability we did not originally require (I have also showed that).

You've been unable to show how we aren't overpaying. Show me comparative maintenance cost of 2 x Arrius engines as being lower than a single Ardiden engine?

And you've been unable to show me how its better? Show me a single piece of official IAF literature (RFI, AoN, ASQR, anything) that says we need twin engine at this altitude?

So yeah, my assertion that Ka226 is purely a political deal is backed up by sufficient evidence. If you want to show its a legit requirement, burden of proof is on you. And so far you've failed spectacularly - to the point where you are ready to admit that it was a political deal and now desperately trying to find arguments as to why political deals are/were always good.

ROFL.



It do when you are scrapping a legit competition to give G2G dear unkul.

ALH for the NUH ---- 0 that's a big fat Zero for now so stop misleading the facts.

RFI doesn't get a proposal ?


And for some dumb shit you were asking me to read history...

Better you know that UK and French diplomat were both offering Jags and Mirage respectively.... in late 70s tonseal the deal in their favor. French offered help in our indigenous projects too ( Dassault --- Tejas )

The total requirement was for 300+ and got divided among both of them. But later cancelled due to high cost and cheaper Mig 29s. Jags were outdated long back as a strike aircraft and Mirage was a multirole.

Point was it wasn't russian factor or just politics but economic and capability both were taken into account even then. Specially in case of India when we had the choice.


Regarding if they had got this or that..... Even Soviet/Afghan Mig 23 took down one PAF F-16 and IAF Mig 21 did too. Mig 29/35 are far ahead if put to test . So don't bring that up.

Regarding missiles Russian IR missiles like R-73 and mig 29 had shocked the world when discovered and were best in town . Not to forget even IAF pilots rating it better in terms of performance when they were introduced to it.

Infact R-73 was integrated with Mirage too in 2000s .

Most important money we had to pay then.
Period.

And now you are making up stuff that I am trying to say political deal are always the best... Blah blah.. Dude you are delusional and lost within yourself.

Ka 226 are better... And the req for LUH would have always been divided into two since army decided not to put their all eggs in HAL basket.

Even if navy opts for Panther it only further this that they don't want ALH.

But you can definitely come and say that's also political . It doesn't matter what you think, make up or say though my delusional dear nephew.

 

[Alfalfa]

guys please tone down the language..... "dumb shit"?
while an informative discussion , its getting personal

 

[Gessler]

ALH for the NUH ---- 0 that's a big fat Zero for now so stop misleading the facts.

RFI doesn't get a proposal ?

Lol, as of now even Ka226 is a big fat 0 whether its for LUH or NUH.

At least HAL LUH actually got order for 6 airframes.

IAF To Procure Six Indigenous Light Utility Helicopters; Here's Everything You Should Know About It

HAL's Light Utility Helicopter is powered by a single turbo shaft engine, which gives it adequate power margins to accomplish high-altitude missions in Ladakh and Siachen with ease.

swarajyamag.com

So don't talk about "for now".

And for some dumb shit you were asking me to read history...

Better you know that UK and French diplomat were both offering Jags and Mirage respectively.... in late 70s tonseal the deal in their favor. French offered help in our indigenous projects too ( Dassault --- Tejas )

The total requirement was for 300+ and got divided among both of them. But later cancelled due to high cost and cheaper Mig 29s. Jags were outdated long back as a strike aircraft and Mirage was a multirole.

Point was it wasn't russian factor or just politics but economic and capability both were taken into account even then. Specially in case of India when we had the choice.


Regarding if they had got this or that..... Even Soviet/Afghan Mig 23 took down one PAF F-16 and IAF Mig 21 did too. Mig 29/35 are far ahead if put to test . So don't bring that up.

Regarding missiles Russian IR missiles like R-73 and mig 29 had shocked the world when discovered and were best in town . Not to forget even IAF pilots rating it better in terms of performance when they were introduced to it.

Infact R-73 was integrated with Mirage too in 2000s .

Most important money we had to pay then.
Period.

And now you are making up stuff that I am trying to say political deal are always the best... Blah blah.. Dude you are delusional and lost within yourself.

The only "dumb sh!t" here is you thinking Jag was an alternative for M2K.

FYI, the IAF had a saying for the Jag - that it only takes off because of the curvature of the Earth

To think such an underpowered plane was somehow considered an alternative for M2K (which can go toe to toe with F16 in dogfight) is absurd.

What the SEPECAT team was trying to do was to accommodate their offer in case IAF (under pressure from GOI) decides to expand the MiG-29 fleet. As the Fulcrum was not as capable in A2G as it was in A2A, the SEPECAT's plan was to offer further Jags as a dedicated A2G CAS aircraft.

The IAF acquisition of M2K was a direct consequence of PAF plans for F-16.

Even today, when IAF wants to conduct a deep-penetration strike, their first choice remains M2K (i.e. Balakot), as the M2K is uniquely suited for a multi-role situation, it can easily defend itself in A2A in a pinch, without needing to assign a different squadron (like MKI) to provide escort support. A strike package of M2Ks from the same squadron (in this case, Battleaxes) can be configured in both A2G & A2A roles and perform the job splendidly.

No other IAF plane can perform a better multi-role job*. The MKI can't conduct low-altitude flights as well as M2K can, the Jag cannot defend itself as well as M2K can, the MiGs - forget it. Only time they can fly as low as M2K is when they're about to crash. Which is why M2K is always first choice for deep strike.

Only way you can conduct such an operation with non-M2K fleet is if you deploy twice as many squadrons with twice as many (if not more) engines & pilots. A maintenance nightmare that will result in sortie rate quickly dropping deeper you go into conflict.

The entirety of MiG-29 & Jaguar fleet could have been easily substituted by half the number of M2K if it wasn't for politics. Imagine how many billions it could have saved over the years, and how much it would have simplified logistics.

*Except Rafale ofcourse.

Ka 226 are better... And the req for LUH would have always been divided into two since army decided not to put their all eggs in HAL basket.

Lol, another made-up claim to justify a political deal.

If so then why didn't they procure a different 5.5 ton twin-engine helo to "hedge bets" against Dhruv?

And if hedging bets was the norm, where is our hedge against Su-30MKI? Are we planning on buying F-15?



This is what I meant when I said "tail wagging the dog". You can't be tailoring the question to fit the answer buddy, its supposed to work the other way round.

The only justification a political deal requires is that its political (i.e. my original claim), it does not require any capability bias.

Even if navy opts for Panther it only further this that they don't want ALH.

FYI, Navy already ordered over a dozen Dhruv and buying more to perform a multitude of roles.

The version of ALH tailored for NUH requirement is being worked on (the tail-folding is demonstrated to that end). But a lease is just that - a lease, a temporary measure for short-term. IN is nowhere close to placing definitive orders for NUH, and when they do, ALH will be in a very good position - a far better position than Ka226 which so far won 0 orders from any branch of Indian military, for which no Indian production line exists, and for which the political compulsion to order will end with the 197 helo deal.

It doesn't matter what you think, make up or say though my delusional dear nephew.

The same for you, Mr. I-can't-decide-what-my-argument-is.

guys please tone down the language..... "dumb shit"?
while an informative discussion , its getting personal

It's typical when you lose any ground for a good argument but decide to keep going on so as not to lose face, the BS comes tumbling out of the mouth.

When I make a mistake, I admit it and learn from it (like on the nuclear submarine thread), but unkul ji here cannot.

 

[Aditya Ballal]