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HAL is going to have the last laugh here, whether Ka-226 or LUH are ordered or if both are ordered.Lol, thanks for showing your true colours.
It was never about there being 2 distinct requirements that could only be fulfilled by 2 different types.
It was just about drooling over any non-HAL product. I've been critical of DPSUs in my own right, but never so mindlessly as this.
No, but I wonder if @abingdonboy does.@Gessler need to do a back of the envelope calculation of known capital procurement pipeline of all branches. just to get a ball park number on future acquisition costs.
have you come across any such recent calculation ?
These are the kind of figures that have been used to create headlines in recent years:@Gessler need to do a back of the envelope calculation of known capital procurement pipeline of all branches. just to get a ball park number on future acquisition costs.
have you come across any such recent calculation ?
Payments for S400 + MH60R + C295 + LCA alone in 5-7 years will be close to 15 billion $.These are the kind of figures that have been used to create headlines in recent years:
Indian Army: India to spend a whopping USD 130 billion to modernise forces
Govt plans to procure a range of critical weapons, fighter jets, missiles, submarines and warships in 5-7 years.economictimes.indiatimes.com
Works out to $18-25bn in CAPEX for the 3 forces for the next 5-7 years, nothing breath taking, I'm pretty sure this number is in line with the modest CAPEX increases over the last 2-3 years.
Basically pure PR spin, no major spikes in spending can be expected and I'm sure that as a % of GDP defence will drop below 1.4% by the time 2024 hits.
Lol, as of now even Ka226 is a big fat 0 whether its for LUH or NUH.
At least HAL LUH actually got order for 6 airframes.
IAF To Procure Six Indigenous Light Utility Helicopters; Here's Everything You Should Know About It
HAL's Light Utility Helicopter is powered by a single turbo shaft engine, which gives it adequate power margins to accomplish high-altitude missions in Ladakh and Siachen with ease.swarajyamag.com
So don't talk about "for now".
The only "dumb sh!t" here is you thinking Jag was an alternative for M2K.
FYI, the IAF had a saying for the Jag - that it only takes off because of the curvature of the Earth
To think such an underpowered plane was somehow considered an alternative for M2K (which can go toe to toe with F16 in dogfight) is absurd.
What the SEPECAT team was trying to do was to accommodate their offer in case IAF (under pressure from GOI) decides to expand the MiG-29 fleet. As the Fulcrum was not as capable in A2G as it was in A2A, the SEPECAT's plan was to offer further Jags as a dedicated A2G CAS aircraft.
The IAF acquisition of M2K was a direct consequence of PAF plans for F-16.
Even today, when IAF wants to conduct a deep-penetration strike, their first choice remains M2K (i.e. Balakot), as the M2K is uniquely suited for a multi-role situation, it can easily defend itself in A2A in a pinch, without needing to assign a different squadron (like MKI) to provide escort support. A strike package of M2Ks from the same squadron (in this case, Battleaxes) can be configured in both A2G & A2A roles and perform the job splendidly.
No other IAF plane can perform a better multi-role job*. The MKI can't conduct low-altitude flights as well as M2K can, the Jag cannot defend itself as well as M2K can, the MiGs - forget it. Only time they can fly as low as M2K is when they're about to crash. Which is why M2K is always first choice for deep strike.
Only way you can conduct such an operation with non-M2K fleet is if you deploy twice as many squadrons with twice as many (if not more) engines & pilots. A maintenance nightmare that will result in sortie rate quickly dropping deeper you go into conflict.
The entirety of MiG-29 & Jaguar fleet could have been easily substituted by half the number of M2K if it wasn't for politics. Imagine how many billions it could have saved over the years, and how much it would have simplified logistics.
*Except Rafale ofcourse.
Lol, another made-up claim to justify a political deal.
If so then why didn't they procure a different 5.5 ton twin-engine helo to "hedge bets" against Dhruv?
And if hedging bets was the norm, where is our hedge against Su-30MKI? Are we planning on buying F-15?
This is what I meant when I said "tail wagging the dog". You can't be tailoring the question to fit the answer buddy, its supposed to work the other way round.
The only justification a political deal requires is that its political (i.e. my original claim), it does not require any capability bias.
FYI, Navy already ordered over a dozen Dhruv and buying more to perform a multitude of roles.
The version of ALH tailored for NUH requirement is being worked on (the tail-folding is demonstrated to that end). But a lease is just that - a lease, a temporary measure for short-term. IN is nowhere close to placing definitive orders for NUH, and when they do, ALH will be in a very good position - a far better position than Ka226 which so far won 0 orders from any branch of Indian military, for which no Indian production line exists, and for which the political compulsion to order will end with the 197 helo deal.
The same for you, Mr. I-can't-decide-what-my-argument-is.
It's typical when you lose any ground for a good argument but decide to keep going on so as not to lose face, the BS comes tumbling out of the mouth.
When I make a mistake, I admit it and learn from it (like on the nuclear submarine thread), but unkul ji here cannot.
In case they go for Ka226, it's better not to push for Make in India or ToT drama. It increases the cost significantly, at times downgrades the quality, and nothing great comes out of the ToT premium.Again half baked shit... With nothing to do with topic... In b/w 50+ Ka 226 are ordered and in production apart from the 200 .
Regarding Jags bs Mirage 2k...
Everyone but you knows it was Anglo French vs French... Jet in the mix.
Where Mirage wasn't even shown to IAF first but as I said before it was bought because our royal prince of that time liked it in an airshow.
Mirage was a multirole means it could be configured for different role ( not swing role )
Mig 27 was already going to enter soon.
One fighter jet which was absolutely different out of these was Mig 29 which IAF tested and gave a go ahead for air-superiority.
Regarding Jags only fly because of curvature of earth joke... well that wasn't 80s but later when the thrust of engine reduced by over 30% and new avionics made their way in with Darin 1/2 upgrades. So thats another lie that you heard and tried to push into somewhere it doesn't stand .
Don't just throw something anywhere and hope that it will stick...
1. We may buy Tejas buy that doesn't make it better than Rafale because they are purchased in smaller number. It only means we are doing it due to cost factor and to support our industry .
Now instead of beating around the bush.... Just do yoga or something and find your sanity.
You think Ka 226 T is just for politics . I disagree
I said it's a better one which it is
In budget... And we were going to purchase another type anyway.
You can disagree as much as you want without throwing made up stuff abt things you don't know. Period.
Lol, by who. Nobody give a damn about what some other country order. Their requirements are different & their politics are different.Again half baked shit... With nothing to do with topic... In b/w 50+ Ka 226 are ordered and in production apart from the 200 .
Already explained in detail what was the dynamic here. If you can't be bothered to understand the real story, that's your problem.Regarding Jags bs Mirage 2k...
Everyone but you knows it was Anglo French vs French... Jet in the mix.
Where Mirage wasn't even shown to IAF first but as I said before it was bought because our royal prince of that time liked it in an airshow.
Mirage was a multirole means it could be configured for different role ( not swing role )
Mig 27 was already going to enter soon.
One fighter jet which was absolutely different out of these was Mig 29 which IAF tested and gave a go ahead for air-superiority.
Regarding Jags only fly because of curvature of earth joke... well that wasn't 80s but later when the thrust of engine reduced by over 30% and new avionics made their way in with Darin 1/2 upgrades. So thats another lie that you heard and tried to push into somewhere it doesn't stand .
Don't just throw something anywhere and hope that it will stick...
Lol, ok then. Show me in which ASQR it says twin-engine will be preferred.1. We may buy Tejas buy that doesn't make it better than Rafale because they are purchased in smaller number. It only means we are doing it due to cost factor and to support our industry .
Now instead of beating around the bush.... Just do yoga or something and find your sanity.
You think Ka 226 T is just for politics . I disagree
Which is just as ridiculous an assertion now as it was the first time you said it.I said it's a better one which it is
In budget... And we were going to purchase another type anyway.
Lol by who ? Yeah lfmao to the degree of burnt you got... The num is certainly more than 6 , not to forget LUH is ordered because it's a HAL product .Lol, by who. Nobody give a damn about what some other country order. Their requirements are different & their politics are different.
Already explained in detail what was the dynamic here. If you can't be bothered to understand the real story, that's your problem.
Lol, ok then. Show me in which ASQR it says twin-engine will be preferred.
Which is just as ridiculous an assertion now as it was the first time you said it.
Lol, so its possible to buy this because of politics but not Ka226. Yea rightLol by who ? Yeah lfmao to the degree of burnt you got... The num is certainly more than 6 , not to forget LUH is ordered because it's a HAL product .
Own my sh!t?the story.... ? Well the one you made up with false e.g. atleast own your shit dude.
Yeah in your dreams. Whatever helps you sleep at night unkul.All have been exposed and dumped to ground with facts.
That's where the difference is! They actually selected Rafale as L1 and ultimately went with them in G2G.And did mmrca mentioned twin engine ?
Nope but they picked twin engine typhoon and Rafale and eventually went for Rafale.
LOL - talking as if Ka226 was selected in a competition.LUH didn't had to go through a competition to be selected.
I think people reading this thread are quite clear on who the dumb parrot is.There is nothing as ridiculous as a parrot parroting the dumb lies... Where you have the mastery and can continue to do so.
Lol, so its possible to buy this because of politics but not Ka226. Yea right
Own my sh!t?
Dude, I owned you !!
Yeah in your dreams. Whatever helps you sleep at night unkul.
This is getting funny now.
That's where the difference is! They actually selected Rafale as L1 and ultimately went with them in G2G.
But when did we select Ka226 ?? The tender was canceled without any L1 declared, Ka226 was never selected. The Eurocopter Fennec was believed to be the frontrunner - and in a previous tender, the Fennec was actually selected as L1.
We canceled a tender without choosing anything, then pulled the Ka226 out of a$$ for political reasons. Heck, that was the reason why tender had to be cancelled in first place - cuz otherwise Fennec would have won again! And if they waited till L1 declaration happens, then cancel & go with L2, the L1 company would have dragged Govt to court.
Otherwise why cancel the tender, could have just stay put and saw it through to the end? The number of helos to be purchased did not change (same 197), the method of purchase (few off the shelf buy, then license production) did not change, the local assembly agency (HAL) did not change - so why cancel & go for G2G for the same contract? Unless afraid that Ka226 was going to lose?
In Rafale we had to do it because license-production clause was scrapped, and number of planes to be bought reduced from 126 to 36, and local offset contractor changed from HAL to Reliance, requiring whole new math.
Not the case with Ka226 deal - so stop trying to draw a false equivalence, there is none.
LOL - talking as if Ka226 was selected in a competition.
breaking news: it wasn't
Secondly, there is no need to compete because the purpose of competition was to see which foreign helicopter (which were all built to very different specifications) suits our needs best. When HAL was developing LUH, it was tailor-made for Armed Forces' requirements from the start.
And it achieved these requirements fair & square, IOC has been given to both Army & Air Force version, and LSP orders already placed, and now moving toward FOC. All this after a first flight conducted only in September 2016!
Meanwhile, the Ka-226T inter-governmental agreement was signed in 2015 (a year before LUH even made first flight), and till now nothing happened 6 years later.
ROFL.
I think people reading this thread are quite clear on who the dumb parrot is.
Ah, you're back for more kicking.Even primary class student got more brain , class and argument than your repetitive rhetoric.
Keep telling yourself that.Buying HAL product.... To be equated with buying Ka 226 T as part of same political compulsion is literal stupid.
There's a difference between owning & having leverage. Russia doesn't own us, but it sure has a LOT of leverage.Russia doesn't own us and can't certainly force us to not use our own product specially in current political environment
Tejas = LIGHT combat aircraft (LCA)And... Beta ji
Everything is tailor made by HAL etc for defense requirement doesn't mean it's best for us... for e.g. they build Tejas for us... But we still bought Rafale etc.
I don't see you complaining when MiG-29K crashes every other time it takes off and how IN having to restrict flight hours because of poor airframe quality unsuitable for high-tempo carrier operations.And Mirage 2k crash, Sukhoi crash Dhruva rotor breaking down.. etc are some of the shining e.g. of its shoddy quality and maintenance job.
Kicking ? Ohh you poor kid must have been bullied hard in school so trying to be an internet warriorAh, you're back for more kicking.
Good, I was getting bored.
Keep telling yourself that.
There's a difference between owning & having leverage. Russia doesn't own us, but it sure has a LOT of leverage.
Enough leverage that they can sell us a rustbucket of a ship for over $2 billion.
Tejas = LIGHT combat aircraft (LCA)
Rafale = MEDIUM multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA)
For f@ck's sake...its in the name !!
Meanwhile, both HAL LUH & Ka226 are being procured under the same requirement = LIGHT utility helicopter (LUH).
I have stated repeatedly that this is like buying both Rafale & Typhoon. Or like buying both Tejas & JF-17.
For some reason you fail to understand & keep repeating same old defeated arguments...probably because you can't think of anything new to say.
I don't see you complaining when MiG-29K crashes every other time it takes off and how IN having to restrict flight hours because of poor airframe quality unsuitable for high-tempo carrier operations.
I know very well who doesn't know sh!t and constantly tries to divert the topic because of thatSince you don't know shit abt anything... Here you go...
LOL, so what about the ship itself? Or what about the Kuznetsov that constantly keeps breaking down every other month? Another example of superb Russian engineering?Mig 29 k weren't meant for sea operation nor its frame was designed for that Not to forget it's not russia fault if HAL get cheap Ukrainian knockoffs for spare.. having said that Mig 29 isn't the reason for HAL's poor record.
For fcuk sake... In the same mmrca we had gripen too IAF didn't rejected it saying single engine or light aircraft...
So? When did I say we are better than SAAB/Western companies?Infact it is saab which is responsible for providing major avionics /ew suite for HAL LCH too. Why don't you complain on that
Meh, I've been seeing the thread since your last 4-5 posts...nobody is buying what you're selling buddy. Give it up and save face while you still can.Continue kicking your own A with such dumb shit.
You know something ?I know very well who doesn't know sh!t and constantly tries to divert the topic because of that
LOL, so what about the ship itself? Or what about the Kuznetsov that constantly keeps breaking down every other month? Another example of superb Russian engineering?
Do you know why we decided against purchasing MiG-35s?
I've said this before, and I say this again:
The ONLY reason we purchase Russian equipment is either because its a political deal, OR because they're the only option i.e. single-vendor situation. You will not find a Russian offer succeeding in ANY other circumstance. Go ahead and see for yourself.
So? When did I say we are better than SAAB/Western companies?
LOL, unable to show Russians as competitive, so bring in the West out of your a$$ - typical.
Meh, I've been seeing the thread since your last 4-5 posts...nobody is buying what you're selling buddy. Give it up and save face while you still can.
I know who's stuff is half-baked that you feel the need to change argument at every turn.You know something ?
That's why your half baked stuff were exposed?
Again, according to who? You ? LOL.And again trying to divert what ? It was abt LUH not good enough alone... And Ka 226 T a better option that we need .
Your trash arguments...you're basically just arguing for sake of arguing now.Coming back to you have seen last few post and no one is buying what ?
Meanwhile Kamov at Army's Cold Weather trials:-This thread right now:-