HAL Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) and Light Observation Helicopter (LOH)

[FalconSlayers]

ZF-4610

ZF-4620

ZF-4630

ZF-4640

 

[Starlight]

Lesser moving parts exposed the better.

 

[Akula]

ZF-4610
View attachment 95954





ZF-4620
View attachment 95955





ZF-4630
View attachment 95956






ZF-4640
View attachment 95957

Any significant change in prototype no 1 to 4, just like LCH.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Any significant change in prototype no 1 to 4, just like LCH.

Just like LCH

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian army will recive 6 LUH by december 2022

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian army to get 6 light utility helicopter by december 2022

 

[vampyrbladez]

Indian army to get 6 light utility helicopter by december 2022

That means Ka-226 deal is over?

 

[Flying Dagger]

That means Ka-226 deal is over?

No , we still need Ka 226 T .

 

[THESIS THORON]

That means Ka-226 deal is over?

no. that thing is still there.

army needs helis with 2 engine

 

[Sir pe tapla]

no. that thing is still there.

army needs helis with 2 engine

Just add one more engine on luh.

 

[Gessler]

That means Ka-226 deal is over?

Unfortunately no. It's political.

They're dragging their feet but they have to pay the devil his due sometime.

No , we still need Ka 226 T .

No, we still want Ka 226T.

There fixed it for you.

no. that thing is still there.

army needs helis with 2 engine

'needs'

Really? Yet they are perfectly content with operating single-engine Cheetah & Chetak for several decades without any issue?

Yet they seem to had no problem letting single-engine Eurocopter Fennec compete alongside for the 197 helo tender? (if RFI stipulated twin engine, it would not have been allowed).

Seem to have no problem actually selecting single-engine Fennec as L1 (lowest bidder) in an earlier tender for 197 helos, eligible to get contract?

..:: India Strategic ::.. Army News: Eurocopter Fennec wins the Big Race for 197 Helicopters

Indiastrategic, India strategic, India.strategic

www.indiastrategic.in

The Pakis that operate at similar altitudes over G-B seem to have no problem buying single-engine Fennec?

This so-called twin engine requirement was pulled out of someone's a$$ to justify why we need 2 different types of helos performing the same roles - which was NEVER the case in IAF or AAC.

Every bit of extra weight a helo carries is DETRIMENTAL for the overall performance at these altitudes. Only reason you'd want twin powerplant is if you're running unreliable types and it becomes a safety issue. Not the case with Western (especially French) engines (like I said, Lama & Alouette were kings of these altitudes, IAF will agree).

And we actually wanted to put the same French engines in Ka226 (that's what the T version is)!

T = Turbomeca (now SAFRAN), the company that has most experience in building engines fit for high altitudes. We aren't fools to have selected their designs to power all our high-altitude requirement helos (Dhruv, LCH, LUH).

 

[Chinmoy]

Just add one more engine on luh.

ALH anyone???

 

[samsaptaka]

Unfortunately no. It's political.

They're dragging their feet but they have to pay the devil his due sometime.



No, we still want Ka 226T.

There fixed it for you.




'needs'

Really? Yet they are perfectly content with operating single-engine Cheetah & Chetak for several decades without any issue?

Yet they seem to had no problem letting single-engine Eurocopter Fennec compete alongside for the 197 helo tender? (if RFI stipulated twin engine, it would not have been allowed).

Seem to have no problem actually selecting single-engine Fennec as L1 (lowest bidder) in an earlier tender for 197 helos, eligible to get contract?

..:: India Strategic ::.. Army News: Eurocopter Fennec wins the Big Race for 197 Helicopters

Indiastrategic, India strategic, India.strategic

www.indiastrategic.in

The Pakis that operate at similar altitudes over G-B seem to have no problem buying single-engine Fennec?

This so-called twin engine requirement was pulled out of someone's a$$ to justify why we need 2 different types of helos performing the same roles - which was NEVER the case in IAF or AAC.

Every bit of extra weight a helo carries is DETRIMENTAL for the overall performance at these altitudes. Only reason you'd want twin powerplant is if you're running unreliable types and it becomes a safety issue. Not the case with Western (especially French) engines (like I said, Lama & Alouette were kings of these altitudes, IAF will agree).

And we actually wanted to put the same French engines in Ka226 (that's what the T version is)!

T = Turbomeca (now SAFRAN), the company that has most experience in building engines fit for high altitudes. We aren't fools to have selected their designs to power all our high-altitude requirement helos (Dhruv, LCH, LUH).

Absolutely ! The whole AK103 and Kamov chopper deal smells of rotten eggs. Political 'military diplomacy' to keep ruskies off your back. I bet putin did some blackmailing saying if you don't buy, you know to whom we will sell it to - porkies. Your nice neighbours next door. Also I suspect top brass in IA as usual not interested in indigenous products as usual, so keeping the Kamov deal alive ensures LUH can be buried.

 

[Gessler]

The whole AK103 and Kamov chopper deal smells of rotten eggs.

True - but not of the kind you mention below:

I bet putin did some blackmailing saying if you don't buy, you know to whom we will sell it to - porkies. Your nice neighbours next door.

None of these deals are capable of changing the strategic balance in the region, even the RD93s powering JF-17s don't, and Russia would never sell/lease anything to Pak that will do so (like nuclear submarines or ballistic missile tech).

Political 'military diplomacy' to keep ruskies off your back.

This I agree with 100%. This is how we ended up with:

AKs
Ka-226
Talwar-class frigates
T90 tanks
Vikramaditya carrier
Su-30MKIs
Kilo-class submarines

...list is endless.

The Russians have a strong lobby in Delhi - equivalent or even more powerful than the Unions/OFB/DPSU lobby. This was built up over DECADES...beginning in the 70s & 80s in IG's years. The level of government & bureaucratic infiltration by KGB was mind-boggling. And there's no reason to believe it ended in '91 when USSR collapsed, the evidence speaks otherwise, the 'assets' likely require little to no maintenance and simply switched to new handlers. Blackmail of personal nature is far far cheaper & stronger than monetary incentive.

And every deal reinforces this. Those entire crews of submarines/ships that used to go to Russia for overseeing mid-life upgrades, training etc.? I can bet a lot of them came back as assets of Russians, chained by blackmail.

^^ You think this was the only such incident? more like only one that came out, probably to warn/silence others as to the consequences. Now imagine if an officer like that 'ripens' into a position of Admiral, or god forbid, Chief of Naval Staff. Imagine how much leverage a foreign agency could have on decision-making process, the tabling of RFIs to specifically exclude or include certain competitors.

And this happens to every service. Our counter-intelligence capability, mostly tailored against ISI, is a joke when it comes to handling these matters.

Also I suspect top brass in IA as usual not interested in indigenous products as usual, so keeping the Kamov deal alive ensures LUH can be buried.

Yeah, cuz on top of what I mentioned above, there is corruption.

And to top off BOTH of those above reasons...there is foolish political brinkmanship/involvement/word-of-mouth promises which leaders are hesitant to withdraw from.

I believe at least two deals (AK203 & Ka226) are sustained till today because of that, thanks to Modi-Putin 'camaraderie'.

 

[Covfefe]

True - but not of the kind you mention below:



None of these deals are capable of changing the strategic balance in the region, even the RD93s powering JF-17s don't, and Russia would never sell/lease anything to Pak that will do so (like nuclear submarines or ballistic missile tech).



This I agree with 100%. This is how we ended up with:

AKs
Ka-226
Talwar-class frigates
T90 tanks
Vikramaditya carrier
Su-30MKIs
Kilo-class submarines

...list is endless.

The Russians have a strong lobby in Delhi - equivalent or even more powerful than the Unions/OFB/DPSU lobby. This was built up over DECADES...beginning in the 70s & 80s in IG's years. The level of government & bureaucratic infiltration by KGB was mind-boggling. And there's no reason to believe it ended in '91 when USSR collapsed, the evidence speaks otherwise, the 'assets' likely require little to no maintenance and simply switched to new handlers. Blackmail of personal nature is far far cheaper & stronger than monetary incentive.

And every deal reinforces this. Those entire crews of submarines/ships that used to go to Russia for overseeing mid-life upgrades, training etc.? I can bet a lot of them came back as assets of Russians, chained by blackmail.

^^ You think this was the only such incident? more like only one that came out, probably to warn/silence others as to the consequences. Now imagine if an officer like that 'ripens' into a position of Admiral, or god forbid, Chief of Naval Staff. Imagine how much leverage a foreign agency could have on decision-making process, the tabling of RFIs to specifically exclude or include certain competitors.

And this happens to every service. Our counter-intelligence capability, mostly tailored against ISI, is a joke when it comes to handling these matters.



Yeah, cuz on top of what I mentioned above, there is corruption.

And to top off BOTH of those above reasons...there is foolish political brinkmanship/involvement/word-of-mouth promises which leaders are hesitant to withdraw from.

I believe at least two deals (AK203 & Ka226) are sustained till today because of that, thanks to Modi-Putin 'camaraderie'.

What is the IA's obsession with Ka226? For Navy, it makes sense to have a compact platform (since the ALH blades won't fold) which can act as an AWACS too, but what is IA's requirement that cannot be fulfilled by ALHs or LUH?

 

[Gessler]

What is the IA's obsession with Ka226?

I would substitute the word obsession with compulsion.

For Navy, it makes sense to have a compact platform (since the ALH blades won't fold)

ALH rotors do fold (but not under power, have to be done manually, I think I read something about this being mitigated, not sure don't quote me on that), even the tail-folding is currently being demonstrated to IN.

Any arguments against selecting a modified Dhruv as the NUH platform stands on very thin ice.

which can act as an AWACS too,

There's an AEW version of Ka226? That's news to me - you sure you're not confusing Ka31 with Ka226?

Because -226 is too small to have any significant number of Operator Work Stations (OWS) which allow dissemination of data gathered by the radar.

That said, we have enough Ka31s as it is. We're buying more for the 2nd carrier IIRC.

 

[Covfefe]

I would substitute the word obsession with compulsion.

Compulsion from the Govt or a requirement that ALH/LUH cannot fulfill?

you sure you're not confusing Ka31 with Ka226?

Yeah, my bad. I mistook one for the other.

 

[Gessler]

Compulsion from the Govt or a requirement that ALH/LUH cannot fulfill?

The former.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Unfortunately no. It's political.

They're dragging their feet but they have to pay the devil his due sometime.



No, we still want Ka 226T.

There fixed it for you.




'needs'

Really? Yet they are perfectly content with operating single-engine Cheetah & Chetak for several decades without any issue?

Yet they seem to had no problem letting single-engine Eurocopter Fennec compete alongside for the 197 helo tender? (if RFI stipulated twin engine, it would not have been allowed).

Seem to have no problem actually selecting single-engine Fennec as L1 (lowest bidder) in an earlier tender for 197 helos, eligible to get contract?

..:: India Strategic ::.. Army News: Eurocopter Fennec wins the Big Race for 197 Helicopters

Indiastrategic, India strategic, India.strategic

www.indiastrategic.in

The Pakis that operate at similar altitudes over G-B seem to have no problem buying single-engine Fennec?

This so-called twin engine requirement was pulled out of someone's a$$ to justify why we need 2 different types of helos performing the same roles - which was NEVER the case in IAF or AAC.

Every bit of extra weight a helo carries is DETRIMENTAL for the overall performance at these altitudes. Only reason you'd want twin powerplant is if you're running unreliable types and it becomes a safety issue. Not the case with Western (especially French) engines (like I said, Lama & Alouette were kings of these altitudes, IAF will agree).

And we actually wanted to put the same French engines in Ka226 (that's what the T version is)!

T = Turbomeca (now SAFRAN), the company that has most experience in building engines fit for high altitudes. We aren't fools to have selected their designs to power all our high-altitude requirement helos (Dhruv, LCH, LUH).

No need fixing....

The twin engine is an added and welcome boost. Choppers have high risk of fatalities and single engine choppers when faced with engine issue are prone to it. ( Yes this reasoning will exist till time eternal )

Add coaxial rotor and smaller size providing better handling , range and payload Inc.

And I don't think army /airforce were going to put all eggs in one basket either. There have been lots of issues with Dhruv too. So 200 were to be imported whether Ka or any other.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I would substitute the word obsession with compulsion.



ALH rotors do fold (but not under power, have to be done manually, I think I read something about this being mitigated, not sure don't quote me on that), even the tail-folding is currently being demonstrated to IN.

View attachment 112678
View attachment 112679

Any arguments against selecting a modified Dhruv as the NUH platform stands on very thin ice.



There's an AEW version of Ka226? That's news to me - you sure you're not confusing Ka31 with Ka226?

Because -226 is too small to have any significant number of Operator Work Stations (OWS) which allow dissemination of data gathered by the radar.

That said, we have enough Ka31s as it is. We're buying more for the 2nd carrier IIRC.

I think the two blade fold is much better option that this taliboom fold.

Offcourse Ka 226 T have advantage in this case too which is why I hope HAL can incorporate it in future with TOT coming from Ka 226 T and manufacturing experience

I think navy should divide the 111 no. Into 60 Ka226 T if it meets the requirement and rest ALH.

Or they can look up for a twin engine LUH version for Navy and army both which can easily comeup in 4-5 years if they start now since all the tech is tested and engine etc are available..