HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv

[tejas warrior]

The very basics of military is to be self sufficient, To get material and men from inland not the other way around..

That is the very reason i am a more towards Desi, Besides this Desi product are design to operate in our condition and as per our needs, Most other foreign system dies in our conditions ..

Very well said Kunal.

And we should not be bothered with what Paki have.. only China.

 

[Pulkit]

Very well said Kunal.

And we should not be bothered with what Paki have.. only China.

I also agree with @Kunal Biswas but we should be keeping a check on what Paki gets from china as we need to be prepared for two front wars at all time and with the given scenario of IA and IAF it is a distant dream to be fully prepared fro two front war

 

[Zebra]

I also agree with @Kunal Biswas but we should be keeping a check on what Paki gets from china as we need to be prepared for two front wars at all time and with the given scenario of IA and IAF it is a distant dream to be fully prepared fro two front war

When they get all-most everything from China, then better keep an eye on Chinese.

 

[tejas warrior]

I also agree with @Kunal Biswas but we should be keeping a check on what Paki gets from china as we need to be prepared for two front wars at all time and with the given scenario of IA and IAF it is a distant dream to be fully prepared fro two front war

Yes, but when Chinese are making almost everything on their own, you can not compete them with Imported and assembled products in India. For short term its OK.. but at the end you need your own way.

 

[Pulkit]

Yes, but when Chinese are making almost everything on their own, you can not compete them with Imported and assembled products in India. For short term its OK.. but at the end you need your own way.

I will be thrilled if Indian forces have 75% of there need met by home made products.
when i say home made made in INDIA under license TOT Assembling all is ok.
but
We must have a Totally INDIAN option available always.

India can buy LCA from outside if they buy good number of local LCA Tejas.
India can buy LUH from outside assembled here if they support desi LUH
and so on.

This is to meet the huge numbers required and nothing else.

 

[Shaitan]

License production of Dhruv by a private firm may happen.

It was also ready to look for any Indian vendor to make its other product, the multi-purpose ALH, under licence.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...ght-combat-aircraft-burden/article7617119.ece

 

[Yun Ming]

Ecuador cuts helicopter contract with Indian state company

QUITO, Ecuador (AP) — Ecuador says it's unilaterally ending a contract with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which sold seven military helicopters to the South American nation.

At least four of the Dhruv helicopters delivered between 2009 and 2012 have crashed. One was assigned to transport President Rafael Correa, though he wasn't in the aircraft at the time.

Defense Minister Fernando Cordero announced the action during a news conference Wednesday. He said two of the crashes were caused by mechanical failures. The three remaining Dhruv have been grounded.

Ecuador earlier complained that the Indian company had failed to ship some parts for the helicopters, which were bought for a total of $45.2 million.

HAL's website says the multirole Dhruv can carry as many as 12 passengers and two crewmembers. Nepal and Mauritius also operate Dhruv.

__________________________________________________

What happened? Can anybody shed some light?
This is a blow to HAL's international image.

 

[Mad Indian]

What happened? Can anybody shed some light?
This is a blow to HAL's international image

Hal fanboys will now come and claim how this is import lobby /IAF conspiracy .

Hey fanboys, come and see your great hal at work..... Spreading Indian fame globally

 

[prasadr14]

Hal fanboys will now come and claim how this is import lobby /IAF conspiracy .

Hey fanboys, come and see your great hal at work..... Spreading Indian fame globally

So, what are your views vis a vis defence acquisitions?
Should we always import and forget about developing our capabilities?

Oh, there is no denying that the corrupt practices of armed forces colluding with babus and netas has destroyed our defence manufacturing sector. But, if we don't stick with our industries, we would be importing 50 years from now.

As far as I can see, DM has set the priorities right. It looks dim now but a decade from now, we would be thanking the present disposition.

But I am VERY interested in knowing your views, without the sarcasm of course.

 

[Mad Indian]

So, what are your views vis a vis defence acquisitions?
Should we always import and forget about developing our capabilities?

I think what the current govt is trying to do is good- import for now, while holding for indigenization side by side. But I don't agree with the way we are doing it. Hal and other accountability lacking PSU who have been playing with our security should be sacked and privatized. Govt should serve as the prime integrator and coordinators of the weapons acquisition while development and production remains with private industries which can be held accountable.


This is my view ...


Anyway, I use sarcasm at the Hal fanboys here, who whenever pointed out about HAL's failures always shift the blame on IAF and make useless excuses about HAL and white wash its inefficiency and corruption. You have no idea how many senior well informed posters have quit this forum due to these fanboys trolling them nonstop for calling out HAL and DRDO...

 

[prasadr14]

Anyway, I use sarcasm at the Hal fanboys here, who whenever pointed out about HAL's failures always shift the blame on IAF and make useless excuses about HAL and white wash its inefficiency and corruption. You have no idea how many senior well informed posters have quit this forum due to these fanboys trolling them nonstop for calling out HAL and DRDO...

That HAL and other govt organizations are corrupt and inept is very well noted. There is no point in debating that dead horse.
What is to be analysed is why. Here the Babus and Netas play a very important role.
And I like the changes BJP is bringing in vis a vis defence acquisitions and making sure military gets the domestic stuff and not the foreign maal just because some lobbyist want's to.

And after 3 years if BJP has not performed well, I will look for alternatives to support. My vote and support will be for those will put India above everything else with a pinch of Hindutva added to it.

 

[Sabari Vinayak Foxtrot]

A class in progress at the Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying (HATSOFF), Bangalore. HATSOFF is a JV between HAL-CAE, Canada.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and CAE established a joint venture company in India called the Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying (HATSOFF). In 2010, HATSOFF began operations at a new helicopter training centre in Bangalore, India. The HATSOFF training centre includes a CAE-built full-mission helicopter simulator that features CAE's revolutionary roll-on/roll-off cockpit design, which enables cockpits representing various helicopter types to be used in the simulator. The first training program offered at HATSOFF was for operators of the Bell 412 helicopter. This was followed in early 2011 by the civil/conventional variant of the HAL-built Dhruv helicopter - the first-ever simulator developed for the Dhruv and in 2012 by the Eurocopter Dauphin helicopter. The Bell 412, the Eurocopter Dauphin and civil/conventional variant of the Dhruv have all been certified to Level D, the highest qualification for flight simulators, by India's Directorate General Civil Aviation (DGCA). An additional cockpit for the Indian Army/Air Force variant of the HAL-built Dhruv will be added to the HATSOFF training centre in the future.

 

[Yumdoot]

Hal fanboys will now come and claim how this is import lobby /IAF conspiracy .

Hey fanboys, come and see your great hal at work..... Spreading Indian fame globally

I don't care about HAL. HAL is just a retirement den for IAF people. And there are some very bad IAF people harboured there.

But are the Indian ALH crashing?

Let us see what reply you have. Eagerly waiting for how you blame HAL for Ecuadorian ALH crashes.

 

[Yumdoot]

Here did some quick check for your ease and the most likely causes:
Mind you HAL has assembled >200 Dhruv. Dhruv has an excellent engine.

Only the red ones are the ones where you may find something against HAL.
For blue marked cases :
1) either HAL is not responsible at all or
2) the user is most likely to have put the machine to a use it was not meant (notice the users all of whom can be expected to have very small familiarity or other cultural issues with Dhruv - Ecuadorian AF with very little numbers, Indian Army, BSF)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Dhruv#Incidents_and_accidents

Incidents and accidents[edit]

• In November 2005, a Dhruv crash-landed in Andhra Pradesh, causing the entire fleet to be grounded; the subsequent probe found a fault with the helicopter's tail rotor blades, which has since been corrected.[23][24]
• On 2 February 2007, during rehearsals prior to Aero India, a HAL Dhruv of the Sarang helicopter display team of the Indian Air Force crashed, killing co-pilot Squadron Leader Priye Sharma and injuring the pilot Wing Commander Vikas Jetley.[122] After being in a coma for almost four years, Vikas Jetley died in January 2011.[123] The helicopter team continued to perform in the air show.[124]
• In October 2009, an Ecuadorian Air Force Dhruv flew into the ground near Quito while attempting formation flight with two other helicopters. The remaining six aircraft were grounded during the investigation, which later concluded pilot error to be the cause.[125]
• In February 2010, an Indian Air Force Dhruv was forced to make a crash landing after suffering a loss of power while rehearsing for the "Vayu Shakti" air show; both pilots survived.[23]
• On 14 December 2010, a Dhruv crashed in Jammu injuring all 9 personnel on board.[126]
• On 22 December 2010, a Dhruv crashed in Leh injuring both pilots.[126]
• On 21 April 2011, four army personnel were killed when a Dhruv crashed in north Sikkim. Initial reports pointed to weather as the cause, but a court of inquiry was established to ascertain the exact cause.[127]
• On 19 October 2011, an Indian Border Security Force (BSF) Dhruv crashed in north-east India, resulting in the deaths of the three crew on board. Immediately following the crash, the remaining five Dhruvs of the CRPF were grounded.[128]
• On 15 January 2012, a BSF Dhruv crashed on the runway at Raipur airport during a test flight, there were no deaths but all five of the crew onboard were injured.[129]
• On 5 April 2012, a Dhruv was heavily damaged by maoists who fired upon the helicopter [130]
• On 13 May 2013, a Dhruv crashed in Siachen injuring the pilot and co-pilot [131]
• On 19 December 2013, a Dhruv armed with weapons crashed in Karnataka.[132]
• On 22 February 2014, an Ecuadorian Air Force Dhruv often used as a presidential transport crashed in the Chimborazo region. The pilot Captain Fabian Pazos Narvaez survived, but three military officials were killed. The incident is under investigation.[133][134]
• On 25 July 2014, an Indian Air Force Dhruv crashed near Sitapur in Uttar Pradesh, India. All seven on board were killed. It had been tracked from the ATC of a Delhi air force station until contact with the aircraft was suddenly lost. A mayday call from the pilots appeared to highlight a mechanical failure as the cause. The IAF ordered a court of inquiry to establish the cause of the crash.[135]
• On 13 January 2015, an Ecuadorian Air Force Dhruv crashed injuring 2 crew members [136]
• On 28 January 2015, an Ecuadorian Air Force Dhruv crashed injuring 4 crew members [136]
• On 11 February 2015, an Indian Army Dhruv crashed in Jammu&Kashmir, killing 2 crew members.[137]

Now if the crashes are not happening in the Standard Operating Procedures for the primary fully trained user like IAF then does it not mean that HAL has been keeping its part of the bargain, well, about supplying spares. Now how can Ecuadorians claim that they were discriminated against.

Strange thing that for such a small air force the Ecuadorians lost 3 Dhruvs in less than an year and also have issues with Spares - could it indicate to some undue pressure from some foreign suppliers whose markets are getting disturbed.

 

[pmaitra]

@Yumdoot,

You cannot drill logic into someone who is already invested in the idea that privatization of HAL is going to make a miracle out of it.

The real reason might be something else. The only way a private company can match HAL is actually by acquiring HAL. Nobody has the capability of independently building a company to challenge HAL. If I am wrong, then what's up with Mahindra Aerospace? If not an LCA or ALH, at least they can build something as good as NAL Saras? Afterall, privatization is a magic solution.

I am yet to see anybody opposed to private companies doing something by their own right. Everyone I know has welcomed L&T's new artillery order. We would also welcome a private company building something at least as good as HAL ALH.

Now, I am waiting for comments about how MTNL and BSNL services are bad, and pretend that offering telecom services is just as challenging as building a military plane or helicopter.

I agree with you. This report is just one side of the story.

In contrast, India’s industrial infrastructure lagged woefully behind that of established industrial powers. The state-owned aerospace company, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was essentially an assembly shop for foreign designs, and had very little experience with large-scale research and development. So dependent were Indian industrial giants on foreign technology, they would routinely import simple tools like torque wrenches from abroad because the technology to make them locally did not exist. There wasn’t a single Indian entity that could build composite airframes, aerospace-grade actuators, ruggedised (or even commercial-grade) avionics, multi-function displays, or high-performance jet engines. Each and every one of these items to be developed, from scratch, by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and its partners, or procured from foreign suppliers. Access to the latter became very restricted after sanctions were applied following the nuclear tests in 1998.

From the article in this post:

If you see the comment section, it is very much evident that the paid media of import lobby has failed miserably to generate apathy towards LCA. The India is really changing, who would have thought so many people actually takes interest in defence matters just about 5 years ago?

Alternatively, this post:

http://swarajyamag.com/technology/stop-complaining-about-the-tejas-it-is-a-great-indian-achievement/

In the bickering over minor details surrounding the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft’s performance, the larger picture is being overlooked.

‘India doubles down on crappy homemade jets‘, proclaims one analyst. ‘Modi pushes ‘obsolete’ made-in-India plane on reluctant military‘, a newspaper headline asserts. A third suggests that the jet ‘could hurt [the] Indian Air Force‘. With the Indian government deciding this September to limit the purchase of French Rafale multi-role fighters to just 36 airframes and acquire 120 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) instead, criticisms of the Tejas seem to have surfaced with renewed vigour.

The arguments are not new: The jet is old, they say. 32 years in the making. There are 53 shortfalls in performance. 20 permanent waivers have been granted by Air HQ. The useful combat radius is only 300 kilometres. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is down to 35 fighter squadrons from a sanctioned strength of 42, and cannot afford the risk of inducting an unproven design.

While these figures are all technically correct, the absence of proper context makes them appear more damning than they should. More importantly, the narrow focus on cherry-picked performance parameters fails to take into account the larger picture: the one that puts the achievements till date (and there have been many) in the context of the industrial, economic, and strategic environment in which the project was undertaken. It also neglects longer-term economic and security benefits that have accrued as a result of this effort, the strategic implications of which go beyond any one individual program.

The root of this unwarranted—though no doubt well-intentioned—criticism is an ignorance of the scale of the effort that goes into a modern combat aircraft development programme. Many observers tend to see such a programme as a standalone effort by a single development agency. What they overlook, however, is that it is critically dependent on the presence of a vast industrial ecosystem that can supply the components and materials necessary to build high-performance aircraft.

The development of such an ecosystem is a time-consuming, painstakingly difficult, and expensive undertaking fraught with grave risks. It typically goes hand-in-hand with the introduction of homegrown aircraft designs, and progresses as these designs become increasingly sophisticated over the years. This setup has to be sustained with large orders from the end user, or it collapses upon itself.

In the 1980s, when India set out to develop the LCA, every advanced country that was working on cutting-edge fighter projects had two major advantages going for it: Years of experience building military aircraft, and a fully-developed industrial base which could provide in short order the components and subsystems that went into aircraft designs. For instance, the designers of the Rafale drew on decades of experience with advanced fighters like the Ouragan, Mystere, Super Etendard, Mirage-III, and Mirage-2000 for the French air force. They could count on an assortment of well-established French companies such as Dassault Aviation, Sagem, Thales, Snecma, and several others to supply many of the critical technologies that went into the Rafale: composite materials, avionics, radar, flight control systems, engines, and so on. They also had near-unlimited access to a global network of aerospace suppliers like Moog Controls of the UK, Eaton Aerospace of the US, and TITAL GmbH of Germany to procure components and services that French vendors were unable to offer.

In contrast, India’s industrial infrastructure lagged woefully behind that of established industrial powers. The state-owned aerospace company, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was essentially an assembly shop for foreign designs, and had very little experience with large-scale research and development. So dependent were Indian industrial giants on foreign technology, they would routinely import simple tools like torque wrenches from abroad because the technology to make them locally did not exist. There wasn’t a single Indian entity that could build composite airframes, aerospace-grade actuators, ruggedised (or even commercial-grade) avionics, multi-function displays, or high-performance jet engines. Each and every one of these items to be developed, from scratch, by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and its partners, or procured from foreign suppliers. Access to the latter became very restricted after sanctions were applied following the nuclear tests in 1998.

In spite of such hurdles, the achievements have been nothing short of phenomenal: India has developed a fourth-generation fighter from scratch, one that uses several critical technologies and subsystems that have been developed in-house on a shoestring budget. The LCA’s mission computers, electronic warfare systems, man machine interface, flight control systems, composite airframe technology—these have been developed in India and are all flying on multiple IAF aircraft today in the form of upgrades. The MiG-21 Bison, the MiG-27 Upgrade, the Jaguar Darin III—they all source several local subsystems and components developed by Indian entities. The Sukhoi Su-30MKI, which Indian aviation enthusiasts venerate more than any other fighter, owes much of its success to the DRDO-run Project Vetrivale, which was possible only because of the sweat and toil that went into the LCA programme. In the process, the nation has developed a respectable system of specialised companies and suppliers that can contribute to future projects. Astra Microwave, Data Patterns, and Samtel are just a few examples of companies that cut their teeth on the LCA and now offer world-class aerospace components, subsystems and services.

The benefits of the technologies and infrastructure developed as a result of these programmes extend beyond individual projects. Owing to their strategic nature, they have the potential to strongly influence economic and national security outcomes for the better. One could argue that they already do. They have enabled the manufacture of engineered systems for civilian and military use that are tailored to local requirements, as well as spin-offs in other sectors of the economy.

To take just one example, some of the technologies developed in the course of the Tejas’ Kaveri engine programme are now used by Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) in the manufacture of gas turbine engines for power generation. If exploited properly, they shall go a long way towards limiting the expenditure of foreign exchange on imported weaponry that generates very little economic benefit. More importantly, they shall empower the nation to take (or threaten) military action while limiting the risks of coercive pressure from hostile countries that might use technology embargoes or the termination of military sales to restrict the supply of critical military equipment.

And that is the real benefit of inducting a locally-made jet in large numbers, even though it may fall short on certain performance parameters. As Shiv Aroor so rightly says, the endless bickering over minute technical details has to stop. The enormity of what has been achieved cannot be allowed to come to naught because the Tejas’ turn rates are a couple of degrees short of what is required, or because the nose cone could be improved to achieve better radar performance.

With a home-grown fighter, the IAF gets a weapon that it can tinker with in unlimited amounts without having to seek approval from vendors guided by their own narrow interests. It gets the freedom to not treat that weapon as a scarce resource that has to be rationed across the breadth of the national border and not worry about treating as a scarce resource. And with the technological know-how as well as an industrial ecosystem largely in place, the development of the next generation of fighter is bound to be a little smoother, a little less uncertain, and constrained by fewer technological hurdles than the LCA was.

 

[blue marlin]

Ok now i want this to be troll free thread. if you have not got anything meaningful to say, don't say anything and move on.


Ecuador cancels Rs 200 crore order of seven ALHs after four crashes


Ecuadorian Hal dhruv
http://**********/attachments/dhruv-jpg.265164/


NEW DELHI: India's first military chopper export has gone bust with Ecuador announcing plans to cancel the order after four out of the seven advanced light helicopters (ALH) supplied by HAL have crashed, brining into serious question the safety of the remaining.

Ecuadorian defence minister Fernando Cordero has announced plans to cancel the contract, seven years after the Rs 200 crore deal was signed in 2008 and retire the three remaining choppers. While HAL is yet to receive the official order for cancellation, officials told ET that it would affect pending upgrades and maintenance orders.

The cancellation is especially bitter as HAL had sold the ALH to Ecuador at a price below the manufacturing cost, in the hope that the money would be recovered in service and maintenance contracts through its 20 year service life.

While the ALH has been exported to other nations including Nepal, Mauritius and Maldives, Ecuador was the only order the Indian chopper had bagged in the face of international competition. However, the trouble with the Ecuadorian fleet started within a year of the signing of the contract with the first chopper crashing in October 2009. Though the crash was attributed to pilot error, it took place during the national day celebration of the nation, bringing the fleet's troubles to international attention. Out of the four choppers that have crashed, two are attributed to pilot error.

However, an Indian CAG report has pointed that ALH crashes have taken place due to a design flaw that leads to a loss of control when it is being rolled back from a left turn.


The two other choppers with Ecuador have crashed due to mechanical failure. HAL officials pointed out that the two choppers were being maintained by Ecuador and that the Indian responsibility was limited to providing technical support and spares. While the terms and conditions of the cancellation are yet to be shared, HAL will also explore legal options as payments for several small sub contracts is still pending.

The ALH has had a patchy safety record with several crashes in India as well. In 2014, two ALH choppers crashed in the Siachen area alone. Manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), had sold the ALH even below the manufacturing price to be competitive with other global bidders. A 2013 CAG report had revealed that HAL had quoted a price of Rs 204 crore for the supply of seven choppers, which was Rs 52crore below the manufacturing cost of the choppers.

Ecuador cancels Rs 200 crore order of seven ALHs after four crashes - The Economic Times

 

[bennedose]

Ecuador Dhruv crash caused by pilot error

 

[sunnyv]

We have been flying ALH with much more difficult missions and challenges. ALh has delivered 100% safety record in high terrains of Arunachal,Kargil sector and in deserts . Availability of these machines is exceptional even in bad weather .
I have got videos which will make people sit up and cry for our aviators . Too bad cant share in public domain..
Nothing wrong with machine it's just.... Ahmmm will leave at that . Let Ecuador technicians figure it out

 

[Sabari Vinayak Foxtrot]

HAL Dhruv is Best of Best coz It can climb upto 20,000 ft

 

[Neelkanth]

Ok now i want this to be troll free thread. if you have not got anything meaningful to say, don't say anything and move on.


Ecuador cancels Rs 200 crore order of seven ALHs after four crashes


Ecuadorian Hal dhruv
http://**********/attachments/dhruv-jpg.265164/


NEW DELHI: India's first military chopper export has gone bust with Ecuador announcing plans to cancel the order after four out of the seven advanced light helicopters (ALH) supplied by HAL have crashed, brining into serious question the safety of the remaining.

Ecuadorian defence minister Fernando Cordero has announced plans to cancel the contract, seven years after the Rs 200 crore deal was signed in 2008 and retire the three remaining choppers. While HAL is yet to receive the official order for cancellation, officials told ET that it would affect pending upgrades and maintenance orders.

The cancellation is especially bitter as HAL had sold the ALH to Ecuador at a price below the manufacturing cost, in the hope that the money would be recovered in service and maintenance contracts through its 20 year service life.

While the ALH has been exported to other nations including Nepal, Mauritius and Maldives, Ecuador was the only order the Indian chopper had bagged in the face of international competition. However, the trouble with the Ecuadorian fleet started within a year of the signing of the contract with the first chopper crashing in October 2009. Though the crash was attributed to pilot error, it took place during the national day celebration of the nation, bringing the fleet's troubles to international attention. Out of the four choppers that have crashed, two are attributed to pilot error.

However, an Indian CAG report has pointed that ALH crashes have taken place due to a design flaw that leads to a loss of control when it is being rolled back from a left turn.


The two other choppers with Ecuador have crashed due to mechanical failure. HAL officials pointed out that the two choppers were being maintained by Ecuador and that the Indian responsibility was limited to providing technical support and spares. While the terms and conditions of the cancellation are yet to be shared, HAL will also explore legal options as payments for several small sub contracts is still pending.

The ALH has had a patchy safety record with several crashes in India as well. In 2014, two ALH choppers crashed in the Siachen area alone. Manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), had sold the ALH even below the manufacturing price to be competitive with other global bidders. A 2013 CAG report had revealed that HAL had quoted a price of Rs 204 crore for the supply of seven choppers, which was Rs 52crore below the manufacturing cost of the choppers.

Ecuador cancels Rs 200 crore order of seven ALHs after four crashes - The Economic Times

Meaningful reply : 2 Crashes because of Pilot error + 2 Crashes because of Mechanical failure because of bad maintenance by Ecuador. and they cancel the Contract.