HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv

[Pulkit]

What is the specialization require for such a tasks as per Indian context ?

In Indian Context:
We needed an dedicated attack heli which can perform at High Altitudes where the temperatures are very low and In deserts also where the temperatures are very high.
I believe that the technology in terms of material used in making LCH and its shape makes it less prone to SAM's /Missiles in comparison to RUDRA.

These factors are involved in designing of almost all the defense weaponry in our Nation

RUDRA is Dhruv armoured against small arm fire and with some attack power.

The Basic aim for the LCH was to have a Light and sleak Attack Heli which can operate at high altitude.LCH is itself a form of HAL Dhruv or its can called a derivative of it. LCH is stealthier than Dhruv .
Dhruv/Rudra Cannot be called a true Attack Heli as it carries passenger also.(I have my constraints about it).

LCH is up armored with bullet protection up to HMG where as Rudra is unarmored even vulnerable to LMG , Rudra will be meant for support role where as LCH will be for attack role.
LCH is more maneuverable though it's speed,range,rate of climb are nearly the same performance as RUDRA. But it battle Field maneuverability is a very important factor.

Rudra was not developed as an Attack Heli but was later converted to fill up the gap.
LCH is designed specifically for that role.....
Do you not believe that a specific and dedicated weapon is required for a particular role i.e. to full fill the requirements?
OR
Is it better to be jack of all Trades?

 

[Pulkit]

LCH is attack helicopter. It can't carry special forces. So, it can't carry CT operations at its own.
It's more like Tank killer.

Yes Attack Helicopters are not meant to carry troops .thats not there role.
Yes they are Tank Killer .

Rudra/Dhruv is designed to carry troops and carry out CT ops.

Dhruv & Rudra is same, it's next version of Dhruv which is well armed. Rudra is also called Dhruv mk4.

I am aware of this and I agree .Please share some light on the next version which will be well armed????
Rudra is mk4 I agree.....

Again, LUH is much smaller than Dhruv with single engine. I hope IA use Rudra in place of LUH for such operations.

Cost of acquiring ,maintaining and operating LUH will be very less when compared to Rudra for the same role.

If that's the case why don't we have all the Su or all the FGFA.... no we cannot as it will not be cost effective.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I was referring to Dhruv MK3 for SF purposes ..

The video you quoted showed SF movement via Dhruvs and not Rudras ..

In Indian Context:
We needed an dedicated attack heli which can perform at High Altitudes where the temperatures are very low and In deserts also where the temperatures are very high.
I believe that the technology in terms of material used in making LCH and its shape makes it less prone to SAM's /Missiles in comparison to RUDRA.

These factors are involved in designing of almost all the defense weaponry in our Nation

RUDRA is Dhruv armoured against small arm fire and with some attack power.

The Basic aim for the LCH was to have a Light and sleak Attack Heli which can operate at high altitude.LCH is itself a form of HAL Dhruv or its can called a derivative of it. LCH is stealthier than Dhruv .
Dhruv/Rudra Cannot be called a true Attack Heli as it carries passenger also.(I have my constraints about it).

LCH is up armored with bullet protection up to HMG where as Rudra is unarmored even vulnerable to LMG , Rudra will be meant for support role where as LCH will be for attack role.
LCH is more maneuverable though it's speed,range,rate of climb are nearly the same performance as RUDRA. But it battle Field maneuverability is a very important factor.

Rudra was not developed as an Attack Heli but was later converted to fill up the gap.
LCH is designed specifically for that role.....
Do you not believe that a specific and dedicated weapon is required for a particular role i.e. to full fill the requirements?
OR
Is it better to be jack of all Trades?

 

[Pulkit]

The current orders were made keeping in mind the absence of specialized Heli for a particular role....
The main purpose of Dhruv was transportation.

With some progress in the field of LUH and LCH i do not see alot many numbers being ordered further.

And we have also made commitment to Manufacture Russian LUH under Make in India initiative.

IAF and IA might make few further orders but will that be sufficient to keep two lines operational?

Are any export orders in pipeline?

Saar, I want to ask you which IAF chopper can perform this better than Dhruv/Rudra ?

Even looks like IA used them in Surgical Strikes across LOC.

Saar ji...
I will just say it was being used as it only in the absence of a specialised heli...
LCH has shown more potential and once it is approved it will take up the role of attack heli...

LUH HAL there is not much info but it's on track and will also take up its role once ready....

Dhruv is gonna be there and might be ordered more but Rudra is the one in question here as once the LCH is ready will it not be of greater value to order LCH and not Rudra

What is the specialization require for such a tasks as per Indian context ?

I was referring to Dhruv MK3 for SF purposes ..

The video you quoted showed SF movement via Dhruvs and not Rudras ..

I was not commenting on the ability of Dhruv or Rudra...
1) I said Not many orders or Rudra will be made further once the LCH is ready and For Dhruv once LUH is ready.They both have different roles but the numbers will impact once the LCH and LUH are ready.
2)I was asked that which IAF heli is better than Rudra and Dhruv when even IA used it for surgical Strikes to which I replied that They are different class and different roles entirely .
3)You asked what specialization is required I replied you in the same context.I was not referring to Dhruv earlier.As in the previous comment it was written "Even used in this"................


though I will like to know if you agree with what i said in quote 1061.

and I will also request you not to target me..... You just picked one statement of mine and started interrogating me....

 

[Rahul Singh]

Rudra is a multirole helicopter being built for specialised roles like C-SAR which includes special forces interdiction and support all bundled in a single platform.

LCH on other hand is an attack helicopter optimised for attacking targets at high altitudes, though it can be very much employed in plain fields as well in roles like anti-tank and DEAD.

I personally feel HAL should use baseline LCH airframe and develop a new heavy class attack helicopter in class of Apache by replacing its present turboshafts with uprated one. Since there is already a requirement for such an attack helicopter ( presently being filled by Apaches) it would be better if HAL starts this project along with IMRH.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rudra is a stop gap solution until LCH get into mass production, It will take 2-3.5 years more for LCH.

Though forces which are using Rudra and Dhruv MK3, Will find MK4 more user friendly as both design share 95% commonality with spares unlike LCH ..

Coast guards for example, Will prefer MK4 than going for LCH, LCH will be used primarily by IA and IAF ..

I was not commenting on the ability of Dhruv or Rudra...
1) I said Not many orders or Rudra will be made further once the LCH is ready and For Dhruv once LUH is ready.They both have different roles but the numbers will impact once the LCH and LUH are ready.
2)I was asked that which IAF heli is better than Rudra and Dhruv when even IA used it for surgical Strikes to which I replied that They are different class and different roles entirely .
3)You asked what specialization is required I replied you in the same context.I was not referring to Dhruv earlier.As in the previous comment it was written "Even used in this"................


though I will like to know if you agree with what i said in quote 1061.

and I will also request you not to target me..... You just picked one statement of mine and started interrogating me....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HAL should also design its MLH with 4 shakti turbine engines rather going for a new set of imported engines ..

The same design could be used for further roles, Like Dhruv MK1 = LUH = MK3 =MK4.

I personally feel HAL should use baseline LCH airframe and develop a new heavy class attack helicopter in class of Apache by replacing its present turboshafts with uprated one. Since there is already a requirement for such an attack helicopter ( presently being filled by Apaches) it would be better if HAL starts this project along with IMRH.

 

[tejas warrior]

HAL should also design its MLH with 4 shakti turbine engines rather going for a new set of imported engines ..

The same design could be used for further roles, Like Dhruv MK1 = LUH = MK3 =MK4.

Sir, What happened to HAL MLH project after last tender was cancelled few years back ?

Honestly, I would like HAL to work with Indian private companies than looking for global partners. Tatas seems to be producing other choppers components.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-multi-role-helicopter-imrh.5503/page-4

 

[Rahul Singh]

HAL should also design its MLH with 4 shakti turbine engines rather going for a new set of imported engines ..

The same design could be used for further roles, Like Dhruv MK1 = LUH = MK3 =MK4.

Good idea. But four engine won't be that fuel efficient because of lot of dead weight in form of repeated parts. I think it would be better if we design our IMRH with an engine similar/same to the winner of NMRH. And at later stage replace it with an uprated variant of HTSE.

 

[Pulkit]

Rudra is a stop gap solution until LCH get into mass production, It will take 2-3.5 years more for LCH.

Though forces which are using Rudra and Dhruv MK3, Will find MK4 more user friendly as both design share 95% commonality with spares unlike LCH ..

Coast guards for example, Will prefer MK4 than going for LCH, LCH will be used primarily by IA and IAF ..

Thats Exactly what I said..... Rudra was Inducted as there was NO LCH Once LCH is ready it will take up its role.
In terms of Maintenance yes it will be user friendly but given the numbers 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army it will not be a huge impact as it will be a updated platform .
Yes as of now only IA and IAF have shown interest in it......

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Thats Exactly what I said..... Rudra was Inducted as there was NO LCH Once LCH is ready it will take up its role.
In terms of Maintenance yes it will be user friendly but given the numbers 65 LCH to the IAF and 114 to the Army it will not be a huge impact as it will be a updated platform .
Yes as of now only IA and IAF have shown interest in it......

Not precisely because rudra can carry troops and provide some protection as well. LCH can only attack.

 

[Pulkit]

Not precisely because rudra can carry troops and provide some protection as well. LCH can only attack.

Not precisely??? What???
Please Elaborate......

 

[flying.modi]

LCH Aand RUDRA are two state of the art attacking helicopters .

 

[tejas warrior]

Indian Army Dhruv Mk3 in Action in Nepal. A MUST WATCH!!!

A MSNBC reports goes aboard an Indian Army Aviation Corps HAL Dhruv Mk3 engaged in Op Maitri Rescue & Relief Operations during the aftermath of the tragic Nepal Earthquakes.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1369762243087222&id=138059529590839

 

[tejas warrior]

Cheetah, Chetak choppers to retire after string of crashes raise safety concerns

Army has firmed up plans to retire its oldest light-utility helicopters, pushing the panic button, as a string of recent crashes have blemished the safety record of the machines.

A South Block source said that the early variants of the Cheetah and Chetak fleet will be replaced by the locally-made advanced light helicopter (ALH), also known as Dhruv.

The source said the army’s aviation wing would replace 41 Cheetahs and Chetaks with new helicopters from the “ALH reserve stock” and the proposal would be sent for Cabinet committee on security approval soon.
The army and air force grounded their fleets of 280 light-utility helicopters last December, concerned if the machines were fit to fly, after three aviators were killed in a crash in West Bengal.

The Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, lifeline of troops in high-altitude areas, including the Siachen glacier, are being cleared for flying in batches by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) after carrying out a comprehensive safety check.

The Kamov-226T light utility choppers, to be built with Russia, are to replace these helicopters. However, the $1-billion programme is yet to kick off and the military may have to wait several years for the new machines. Russia will supply 60 helicopters in flyaway condition while the remaining 140 will be manufactured in India.

“The manufacturing line of the ALH is quite stable and the machines are coming out at a pretty steady rate. The Kamovs will take time to come,” a senior officer said. The army operates a mix of 150 Cheetahs and Chetaks.
The design of these helicopters is more than 50 years old and their airworthiness is being questioned after a string of mishaps. Nine personnel were killed in six accidents involving these machines during 2012-15. The Cheetahs play a crucial role in supporting the army on the Siachen glacier, one of the world’s highest battlefields, flying at more than 20,000 feet.

A group of army wives met defence minister Manohar Parrikar in 2015, demanding the helicopters be retired. HAL has licence-produced 625 Cheetah and Chetak helicopters. It no longer builds them but is responsible for their maintenance and repair, a cause for concern.

http://m.hindustantimes.com/india-n...ty-concerns/story-

 

[tejas warrior]

Ramp up copter production, Defence Ministry tells HAL

Posted at: Jan 13, 2017, 1:08 AM
Last updated: Jan 13, 2017, 1:08 AM (IST)
90 helicopters needed per annum

• The MoD wants Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to produce up to 85-90 copters per annum of these three types — Dhruv and light utility and light combat helicopters

Ajay Banerjee

Tribune News Service

New Delhi, January 12

With the armed forces projecting the need for some 700 helicopters — light utility and armed — the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has asked the public sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to ramp up production, speed up existing under-development projects and start out-sourcing work.

The HAL, headquartered at Bengaluru, produces some 22-24 advanced light helicopters (ALH), the Dhruv, annually and some 200 of these are flying; however, the requirement is huge.

In the second phase, rapid production of light utility helicopters (LUH) and light combat helicopter (LCH) will start. Prototypes of both are ready but need operational clearance. The MoD wants HAL to produce up to 85-90 copters per annum of these three types – the Dhruv, LUH and LCH — said sources, while adding that out-sourcing of some work had been suggested on the lines of global manufacturing practices.

Some 100 copters – are needed annually to meet the needs of the three armed forces, the Central Armed Police Forces, the Coast Guard and smaller friendly nations. While HAL continues to be a major player, some of the production can be given to a selected private partner.

The three armed services need 484 of the LUH-type to replace Cheetah/Chetak fleet of helicopters for which the Army requires 259, IAF 125 and Navy around 100 such helicopters equipped with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities.

The Army and the IAF need some 180 attack helicopters. The Coast Guard and other paramilitary forces have their own requirements which are nearly 100 copters. The HAL has planned to expand capacity and a new facility at Tumkur, some 100 km from Bengaluru, will start production in 2018.

HAL is making a 5.5-tonne-class LCH, which is currently under development and undergoing weapons integration.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/ne...uction-defence-ministry-tells-hal/349695.html

 

[Abhi9]

HAL RUDRA ATTACk and LOTS OF DHRUV Action on Army Day parade

 

[Kunal Biswas]

From Army day parade 2015, Dhruv MK4 ..

===================================

 

[Prashant12]

ANALYSIS: India sets sights on rotorcraft upgrade

The Indian air force operates about 500 military rotorcraft, predominantly Russian Mi-17 V5/Mi-17-IV/Mi-17 variants and a few squadrons of venerable Mi-8s, in addition to about a dozen Mi-25/Mi-35 attack helicopters.

Incredibly, the air force and other services continue to operate substantial numbers of obsolescent Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) Cheetah and Chetak helicopters; licence-built examples of the Aérospatiale SA315B Lama (Cheetah) and SA316 Alouette III (Chetak).

The army and air force also operate an upgraded version of the Cheetah, called Cheetal, which can operate at altitudes as high as 23,000ft and is powered by a 1,100shp (820kW) Safran Helicopter Engines TM333-2M2 turboshaft.

The air force and army together still have about 280 Cheetah and Chetak helicopters in service, although serviceability rates are thought to be poor and there are growing safety concerns.

By 2020, the air force will have started induction of five new rotorcraft types; the indigenous HAL Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) and Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), Russian Ka-226 T and American Boeing AH-64 E Apache attack helicopters, and CH-47 F (I) Chinook heavy lifters.

More than 500 new rotorcraft will be inducted into the air force alone over the next 10 years.

Light Helicopters

The Kamov Ka-226T Sergei light helicopter emerged as the winner in 2015 of a tortuous procurement process for a new reconnaissance and surveillance helicopter (RSH) type that would replace the outdated Cheetah and Chetak fleets, and 200 Ka-226s (65 air force, 135 army) have now been contracted for. Of those, 140 will be produced under licence by HAL and 60 will be acquired in fly-away condition from Russian Helicopters.

First delivery dates for examples produced under licence are likely to slip because of delays in setting up infrastructure and the finalisation of aircraft specifications. It also now appears that a new engine production facility will be required for the Ka-226T’s Safran Arrius 2G1 engines, as HAL’s existing partnership with Safran to produce TM333-2B2 and Ardiden 1H1 Shakti engines in Bengaluru is already at full capacity.

The LUH is a new 3t single-engined helicopter designed and developed by HAL to meet the RSH requirement. The LUH made its maiden flight in September 2016 and developmental testing is under way.

Series production of the LUH is slated to begin in 2018, at a new manufacturing facility to be built at Tumkur, about 150km (90 miles) from Bengaluru. A production run of 187 LUH rotorcraft has been approved.

Hindustan Aeronautics' light combat helicopter is one of five new types slated to enter air force operation by the end of this decade

Hindustan Aeronautics

The LUH is powered by a Safran HE Ardiden-1U engine developing 750kW. The Ardiden 1U was selected in 2014 and engine certification is planned for 2018. The engine is a derivative of the Ardiden 1H1, which was co-developed by Safran and HAL and is known lokally as the Shakti.

The LUH, design and development of which started in early 2009, has a maximum all-up-weight (AUW) of 3,150kg and a range of 350km. It will carry six passengers and two pilots.

Deliveries of HAL’s Dhruv, a 5t-class helicopter, to the armed forces continues and all 159 on order will be delivered by 2018. Additional orders are likely to keep the production line running into the 2020s. HAL is now building 24 helicopters a year. Dhruv MkIII examples now being delivered are available with an Israeli-built forward-looking infrared (FLIR) pod.

At present the most advanced variant is the Dhruv Mk IV Weapon System Integrated (WSI), also known as Rudra. HAL has plans to develop a MkV which will be an update of the MkIII utility variant with improvements to the main gearbox, updated avionics and improved aerodynamics.

Another aspect that has emerged with the indigenous helicopters such as Dhruv, Rudra and LCH is that the Indian armed forces have now firmly incorporated simulators into their training philosophies for these helicopters.

Simulator training is now being undertaken by all military and paramilitary users of Dhruv.

“We are planning to induct the Rudra WSI cockpit for training in 2018 and we will be bidding for the LCH and LUH simulators,” says Wg Cdr (retd) Krishna, the chief executive of Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying (HATSOFF), a joint venture between HAL and CAE of Canada. In the 2016 fiscal year the Dhruv (conventional) Level D simulator at HATSOFF was used for 2,200h.

The LCH is a tandem-seat attack helicopter being designed to stringent air force and army requirements for a high-altitude attack helicopter, and makes extensive use of the experience gained from the Dhruv MkIII and MkIV variants.

“We have proved the basic airframe and we already have the experience of weapons integration which we performed on the Rudra,” says HAL chairman Suvarna Raju. “Now we have declared that the LCH is ready for induction depending on the weapons selection by the individual customer.” The LCH has been designed to operate at 10,000-12,000ft with an armaments load on its weapon stub wing/armament boom.

Commenting on the completion of weapons integration, which also requires the finalisation of the armament load by the user, Raju says: “Instead of waiting for weapons integration and declaration of initial operational capability [IOC], which is specific to Indian services, we went ahead and proved the basic platform at different altitudes and have completed hot and cold weather trials.”

The two weapon stations on either side of the LCH can carry anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), rockets or air-to-air missiles. An MBDA spokesman tells FlightGlobal: “The Mistral ATAM launcher has already been integrated on the Rudra and successful test firings have been carried out. Integration on the LCH is under way and progressing as per schedule.”

The LCH is also fitted with a slewable electro-optical sighting system, helmet pointing system, radar/laser missile warning system and countermeasures dispensing system (CMDS). A Nexter THL20 turret gun is also standard on all LCHs.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-india-sets-sights-on-rotorcraft-upgrade-433433/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I hope things get on fast track, So that development of new technologies could continue ..