HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv

[sydsnyper]

@W.G.Ewald - Do such air cavalry units continue to exist in the U.S Army
@Kunal Biswas sir & @Ray sir - Can the Indian army have such cavalry regiments of weaponised ground attack choppers for quick pulverization of medium to heavy enemy outposts followed by quickly deployed forces to snuff out stragglers. This can be a very effective tactic against tank regiments, or enemy HQs in flatlands. I am not sure though, if such units will be easy prey to handheld MANPADS.

Apocalypse Now/Ride Of The Valkyries - YouTube

 

[Ray]

@sydsnyper

Useful.

However, raising such units will be expensive.

Given the lethargy and ineptness exhibited by the MoD, I wonder.

 

[hitesh]

@W.G.Ewald - Do such air cavalry units continue to exist in the U.S Army
Can the Indian army have such cavalry regiments of weaponised ground attack choppers for quick pulverization of medium to heavy enemy outposts followed by quickly deployed forces to snuff out stragglers. This can be a very effective tactic against tank regiments, or enemy HQs in flatlands. I am not sure though, if such units will be easy prey to handheld MANPADS.

The threat in not only from MANPADS but also from Pantsir-S1,9K22 Tunguska,other AAcannon shell which are normally accompanied with a tank column and they can easily detect helicopters form long range so the actual effectiveness of the choppers for such roles are actually a calculated risk whose success depends tactics and operations cleverness of field commanders on how they employ there resources .

 

[hitesh]

Kunal sir we need Mist Mounted Sight for this.

[PDF]http://www.drs.com/Products/RSTA/PDF/MMS.pdf[/PDF]

to be used to see above tree top

I read the post on BR where the person working on LCH said that it is quite difficult to make Mist Mounted system because of vibration etc. But they will make it when development of helicopter is complete.

They should at least start with putting the system on the on the ceiling then installing on nose

 

[hitesh]

^^

A Kawasaki OH-1 Reconnaissance

 

[W.G.Ewald]

@W.G.Ewald - Do such air cavalry units continue to exist in the U.S Army
@Kunal Biswas sir & @Ray sir - Can the Indian army have such cavalry regiments of weaponised ground attack choppers for quick pulverization of medium to heavy enemy outposts followed by quickly deployed forces to snuff out stragglers. This can be a very effective tactic against tank regiments, or enemy HQs in flatlands. I am not sure though, if such units will be easy prey to handheld MANPADS.

101st Airborne Division (Air Assault)

101st Airborne | The United States Army

Welcome to 1st Cavalry Division

 

[W.G.Ewald]

@sydsnyper

List of aviation shootdowns and accidents during the Iraq War

 

[sydsnyper]

Surprising.... the Kiowa, Apache and Blackhawk - All rather recent crafts have had the highest downed rates. Comparatively, the Chinook & the Huey & Bell 412 have very low casualty rates. Like Americans say, they dont make em' like that no more....

But is it not out of the ordinary that the most advanced of the choppers have on an average 8 times the probability of being shot down in Iraq compared to the old workhorses like Huey, Chinook and the Bell.

@sydsnyper

List of aviation shootdowns and accidents during the Iraq War

 

[mattster]

Surprising.... the Kiowa, Apache and Blackhawk - All rather recent crafts have had the highest downed rates. Comparatively, the Chinook & the Huey & Bell 412 have very low casualty rates. Like Americans say, they dont make em' like that no more....

But is it not out of the ordinary that the most advanced of the choppers have on an average 8 times the probability of being shot down in Iraq compared to the old workhorses like Huey, Chinook and the Bell.

There is always more behind the number.......cannot compare combat with transport choppers. Chinook is heavy lift operator that mostly only lands in a secured perimeter. The Apache is much more likely to be shot at from small-arms and will also undertake aggressive and dangerous flying missions.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Surprising.... the Kiowa, Apache and Blackhawk - All rather recent crafts have had the highest downed rates. Comparatively, the Chinook & the Huey & Bell 412 have very low casualty rates. Like Americans say, they dont make em' like that no more....

But is it not out of the ordinary that the most advanced of the choppers have on an average 8 times the probability of being shot down in Iraq compared to the old workhorses like Huey, Chinook and the Bell.

I think the missions of those aircraft are a factor in losses, but have not really analyzed it. Might be a good topic for an article for DFI Security Analysis.

Here is another article:

[PDF]http://www.ausairpower.net/PDF-A/TE-Helo-Mar-05-P.pdf[/PDF]

 

[sydsnyper]

Similar (but not equal) would be the case for the Blackhawks. Also look at this, The Apache's have thick armour and heavy weaponry and some of the best electronic control systems. The huey on the other hand is an old design, but customizable for many roles. They would both be frontline attack choppers, yet look at the disparity in their casualty rates. Similarly for the Apache and the Cobras, both have identical roles, but the Apache has atleast three times the losses of the Cobra.

My only logical explanation, which I have no way to confirm, is that these machines with highest enemy fire casualty rates were either more prolific on the frontline compared to the others or more in number were pressed into service than the others.

There is always more behind the number.......cannot compare combat with transport choppers. Chinook is heavy lift operator that mostly only lands in a secured perimeter. The Apache is much more likely to be shot at from small-arms and will also undertake aggressive and dangerous flying missions.

 

[bennedose]

I read the post on BR where the person working on LCH said that it is quite difficult to make Mist Mounted system because of vibration etc. But they will make it when development of helicopter is complete.

Yes. In fact in Aero India 2013 I specifically asked this question and the person at the HAL stall told me to walk across to the Boeing stall and ask them how much trouble they had in overcoming vibration for the mast mounted radar on the Apache.

I think it is an absolutely trivial matter to simply install electronics on the mast, but keeping it working will be hell. It looks Oh so nice to balance a watermelon on the mast but no one is going to tell you details like MTBF (Mean Time between Failure). The idea has its uses I guess but it has enough drawbacks to make other alternatives seem attractive.

But it is a good technical quest to try and design a system that isolates sensitive electronics from intense vibration. Being cost effective is another matter altogether IMHO

The other big discussion was why did the Dhruv/LCH got its optics above the nose and not below the chin. Hari Nair - Helo test pilot who occassionally posts on BR stated that the angles at which the helicopter would be required to see and aim at any target ensures that it makes no difference whether the optics ball is above or below the nose. No one will be targetng anything directly underneath while getting shot at. The target will be a few hundred meters or a km in front.

 

[sydsnyper]

Eaxctly my thoughts too, what advantage does a top mounted surveillance system have v/s a front or bottom mounted one. is it just a technological achievement or does it allow a better functioning 360 deg radar (which a bottom mounted unit can also provide).

Maybe the reason is that the tob mounted stuff allows for more space in the front nose and bottom for weapons, ammo etc...

Yes. In fact in Aero India 2013 I specifically asked this question and the person at the HAL stall told me to walk across to the Boeing stall and ask them how much trouble they had in overcoming vibration for the mast mounted radar on the Apache.

I think it is an absolutely trivial matter to simply install electronics on the mast, but keeping it working will be hell. It looks Oh so nice to balance a watermelon on the mast but no one is going to tell you details like MTBF (Mean Time between Failure). The idea has its uses I guess but it has enough drawbacks to make other alternatives seem attractive.

But it is a good technical quest to try and design a system that isolates sensitive electronics from intense vibration. Being cost effective is another matter altogether IMHO

The other big discussion was why did the Dhruv/LCH got its optics above the nose and not below the chin. Hari Nair - Helo test pilot who occassionally posts on BR stated that the angles at which the helicopter would be required to see and aim at any target ensures that it makes no difference whether the optics ball is above or below the nose. No one will be targetng anything directly underneath while getting shot at. The target will be a few hundred meters or a km in front.

 

[Ray]

I think the missions of those aircraft are a factor in losses, but have not really analyzed it. Might be a good topic for an article for DFI Security Analysis.

Why don;t you start one.

The US has most experience in helicopter operations in combat.

 

[Ray]

@Kunal Biswas sir & @Ray sir - Can the Indian army have such cavalry regiments of weaponised ground attack choppers for quick pulverization of medium to heavy enemy outposts followed by quickly deployed forces to snuff out stragglers. This can be a very effective tactic against tank regiments, or enemy HQs in flatlands. I am not sure though, if such units will be easy prey to handheld MANPADS.
sydsnyper ↑

This will give you some idea of Air Cavalry.

http://www.survivalebooks.com/free manuals/1969 US Army Vietnam War Air Cavalry Squadron 164p.pdf

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Cannot say ' Air cavalry ' but similar maneuvers are done at smaller scale for SF deployment ..

Like three to four Dhruvs with Lancers ..

[MENTION=9527 [user=4163]@Kunal Biswas[/user] sir & @Ray sir - Can the Indian army have such cavalry regiments of weaponised ground attack choppers for quick pulverization of medium to heavy enemy outposts followed by quickly deployed forces to snuff out stragglers. This can be a very effective tactic against tank regiments, or enemy HQs in flatlands. I am not sure though, if such units will be easy prey to handheld MANPADS. ]

 

[cobra commando]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtlGO9HR_Y
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xiEmRprzuJE
Ecuadorian Dhruv

 

[cobra commando]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OdtKhT0tY0k
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NJroQalxhk4
Mauritius Police Force Dhruv

 

[cobra commando]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bSx-xW976o4
President's Dhruv Helicopter landing at Quito.(Ecuador)

 

[Soumya1989]

Awesome picture of Indian Advanced Light Helicopter Dhruv deploys Saab's integrated EW self-protection system radar, laser and missile approach along with robust countermeasures.