First export of the LCH to Sri Lanka?

[The Messiah]

you forget they always claim India to be supporting LTTE..... and even SL people fear Indians as LTTE, this is my personal experiance in UK....

are lankans this delusional ?

if GoI was supporting LTTE then they would raped the sri lankan army since they would have had better weapons and more funding and intelligence support.

 

[Param]

You're still not getting it. Ace009 says that Lanka is targeting Indian fishermen by justifying it with what happened in the 20 year period between 1980 and 2000 (some Indian Tamils providing logistical support to LTTE), even if nothing happened afterwards.

Why don't you talk about the part that he denied and replying to selective posts by me. You know the truth don't you, about training in 1983 and the policy of 2 previous PMs?

 

[The Messiah]

Param has misunderstood ace009...he is saying by selling sri lanka weapons we can control them more easily since they are tied down to our systems.

I am not a tamil so maybe im not seeing this as emotionally as param. But since im Indian i dont justify killing of Indian citizens by any country. We should have captured one of there border patrol boats and taken them to task.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

All members keep the discussion civil avoid personal attacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ace009]

Thanks - I have stopped talking about these issues on the forum.

 

[Suryakiran]

.self delete.

 

[Rage]

Don't see much wrong in what ace009 is saying. I won't get involved in this debate because of a severe lack of time. But I'm of the view, that any opportunity to capture the Sri Lankan military market must not be missed. It'll help not just geo-strategically, but with our own exports and mil-industry development. Of particular interest to Sri Lanka are small arms and ammunition, military training, naval missiles and surveillance equipment. We are somewhat strong in at least one out of the three departments, and with Israeli help should get strong in the third. It also forces time-bound delivery of weapons, when at least one export client is leaning on your platforms.

Pakistan supplied about $85 million in mortar and grenade equipment in 2007, from its war reserves. That is something we have an advantage in- advantage of scale. With all the ordnance factories we have, a spurt in defence orders could definitely catalyze flagging production. When we make arms sales, we get the opportunity to impart material and logistical training too. Something we have not realized.

Most important of all, we have to realize that the most important small arm is a decent rifle. With all the bad press about the INSAS, and the poor quality control, we can't but be surprised when Sri Lanka negotiates the sale of 10,000 G3 rifles from our arch-rival.

The bureaucracy will have to figure out first whether they want to sell only offensive or defensive weapons to Sri Lanka. They will have to relinquish Tamil Nadu domestic compunctions for international compunctions. We can't afford to let Sri Lanka out of our ambit. And if we do, we will pay heavily for it.

Once they do that, they will have to constitute a special team to negotiate various diplomatic-political necessities with neighboring states. That will have to focus more on ruling parties than on parties in opposition. China may be able to undercut us, but a little political lobbying can go a long way.

A major revamp of the defence factories will then have to be in order. Focusing on an expansion in scale of all small arms producers. That will be good for our burgeoning arms import bill as well. Probably a standing SIT will have to be constituted for quality control.

Moving onto the political...

It also doesn't seem to me like this Tamil-Tamil thing goes far. If you see the state of amenities in Tamil Nadu refugee camps, you'll know to what extent they consider Sri Lankan refugees human.

 

[Tshering22]

Hey - first customer, second customer - how does it matter - I feel SL should be our customer for defense productions - that way we can control their actions.

No. It is simply not possible as SL will always have that "WE WILL GO TO CHINA IF YOU DON'T" threat against us no matter what we do. We have given them way too much help and assistance and it is clear that their loyalty is with the Chinese than us and they cannot just tolerate us as the better nation around them. Their support of Pakistan, their support of China, their having the audacity to welcome Chinese military in OUR ocean territory shows it more than what some people think is simply innocent actions.

As for "India haters" - they might have their reasons - read my last post. Who do you think funded and supported the LTTE?

What caused them to?? Have you seen shocking videos where the Sinhalas massacred the Tamil people. What the hell do you think was that? A brotherly love? LTTE was formed as a response to Sinhala atrocities against Tamil people long time back. True that LTTE crossed all the lines later on, but SL army used this as an excuse to kill thousands of Tamils. Recently even rights bodies are showing these shocking videos about how Tamil people (who're Indian) were killed.

What's worse, the recent killing of half a dozen fishermen in OUR waters; what the f*** do you think is that? We should have sunk their cruiser for having the audacity to enter our waters and kill our fishermen. Just because MMS lacks a spine and his mistress is unconcerned about our country, doesn't meant that we can overlook our enemy's actions against our fellow countrymen.

When they asked for our help, we declined (after pulling back the IPKF). So they turned to Pakistan (not much use there), then to China - who supplied them with amrs and training to defeat the LTTE.

Our soldiers went and fought there and died for SL. What gratitude did the Lankans show? Nothing. Our soldiers spending OUR money paid for by OUR people fought for these slimeballs in SL and still today SL is more pro-China and Pro-Pakistan than even a simple thank you to us. We have always walked the extra mile. Don't you think that the lives of our fishermen is precious? I don't think that is more valuable than a couple of LCH exports to a country who's defense budget is lesser than a well known businessman's bank balance in our country.

India has done it's share of stupid things - just because it's my country - "right or wrong" is not true for me.

The most idiotic thing that the GOI has done till date is the dealing with Nepal and China (Even worse than dealing with other neighbors) turning a virtually twin nation into an estranged country. GOI meddled where they shouldn't have and didn't where they should have since 80s. The only thing sensible that they did was dismembering of Pakistan into two different countries.

Today the dealing with Lanka at the cost of our fishermen is making GOI of today look the same as the idiocy they did with Nepal a few years back.

I say we make SL our client state in terms of defense. Then we can control their shooting our poor fishermen better.

If we had aggressive and smart leaders, I would agree with you. But with this government I doubt that will ever happen.

 

[Param]

Thanks - I have stopped talking about these issues on the forum.

And you better stop accusing any state Govts and their political leaders without proof, you've done that in your previous posts including mentioning of names.

Just like I do not have proof of the centre's role in the mess created in the 80s you do not have proof to support all that you said about TN state govts and prominent leaders.
By proof I meant real convictions in a court of Law for treason or anti national activities not some crappy links that talk about accusations and allegations.

So you should refrain from making such comments about TN state govts and their leaders.

 

[p2prada]

Thanks TR - I am not sure he will EVER get it. He is blinded by his "Tamil patriotism". Honestly, I have at least a dozen Tamil friends over the years - all highly educated and I have never seen such bind dogma in anyone. He is stuck with one misrepresentation of one part of one of my posts and wasting time - enough is enough - I am out ...
May the forum belong to the morons and bigots.

Ace....You are talking out of your ass, just like me.

Don't worry about it, any post that criticizes India by an Indian, you will see a hundred people hit back with the some really useless garbage.

Anyway, I couldn't read all the posts on this thread, skipped 2 pages. But I get the gist of your point and support it.

If we bag SL as a client state it would go a long way in helping us secure the IOR. Slowly we can make their economy a similar class as that of South Korea or Taiwan, but very highly integrated with the Indian economy. Tamil Nadu can play that part very well. This will give us a powerful client state which will back us in every turn. No doubt a country in the same class as South Korea with a kick azz port in IOR would definitely be heard by the international community. Democracy will automatically take care of the plight of the Tamils in SL.

We want an American version of Australia in the IOR, not an American version of Cuba.

 

[Tshering22]

Don't see much wrong in what ace009 is saying. I won't get involved in this debate because of a severe lack of time. But I'm of the view, that any opportunity to capture the Sri Lankan military market must not be missed. It'll help not just geo-strategically, but with our own exports and mil-industry development. Of particular interest to Sri Lanka are small arms and ammunition, military training, naval missiles and surveillance equipment. We are somewhat strong in at least one out of the three departments, and with Israeli help should get strong in the third. It also forces time-bound delivery of weapons, when at least one export client is leaning on your platforms.

I know that strategically we must take some hard decisions but Lankans have been crossing the line these days. Especially after the inaction of MMS and party for the 5 fishermen killed in two weeks by SLN, this is something outrageous. Capturing military markets is one thing and having dignity to at least stand up for fellow countrymen is another.

Pakistan supplied about $85 million in mortar and grenade equipment in 2007, from its war reserves. That is something we have an advantage in- advantage of scale. With all the ordnance factories we have, a spurt in defence orders could definitely catalyze flagging production. When we make arms sales, we get the opportunity to impart material and logistical training too. Something we have not realized.

Pakistan is everything that India is not. It was built on the philosophy that "we will be everything India is not". Its existence is depending only on hating us and our culture. It will eat grass and oppose us if it has to because that is the extent to which their people are brainwashed; from a 5 year old to a 100 year old ( don't think many people cross the age of 50, either blowing up or being blown up these days). So while arms supplies bring additional revenue, we must at least have issued a strong action against the action of SLN, if not sink their cruiser at least fired at them for their audacity. What happened? Krishna went with open arms to them like a fool issuing a warning that no one listens. Reminiscent of MMS begging to Pakistan like a beggar after 26/11.

You think the US will stop if a Brazilian ship fired on its people and killed them? They will hang Brazil inside out even though Brazil is south America's largest US client. Arms sales is different from keeping national dignity. And this GOI has kept nothing for us to save up on. If we take concrete and hard steps against someone opposing us, we will be in negative light as well; but we will also be respected for standing up for our national dignity.

Most important of all, we have to realize that the most important small arm is a decent rifle. With all the bad press about the INSAS, and the poor quality control, we can't but be surprised when Sri Lanka negotiates the sale of 10,000 G3 rifles from our arch-rival.

It is not just about our quality; SL has been pro-pakistani and anti-Indian since the beginning (even before LTTE) when it allowed Pakistani ships to refuel for war. They just cannot handle the inferiority complex they have against us.

The bureaucracy will have to figure out first whether they want to sell only offensive or defensive weapons to Sri Lanka. They will have to relinquish Tamil Nadu domestic compunctions for international compunctions. We can't afford to let Sri Lanka out of our ambit. And if we do, we will pay heavily for it.

Defensive weapons is good enough. Otherwise they will test it against our fishermen. SL is already into China's net.

You're talking just what the Lankans want us to think; "help us or we will take China's side". To that, a correct Indian response should be: "That's fine enough, but remember; if in wartime your territory is used against us by PLAN, we will make sure that you will suffer our wrath as well". That would put Lankans in place, if they're thinking that the "brother Chinese" are coming to save them from "oppressive India".

And have some national empathy; you're talking about an entire state's population of India. The way this government cringes and croons for so-called minorities' sentiments in national politics, if it has even half the respect, it should be harsh with the already-sold-out Lankans.

If your state had seen half the massacres like how our Tamil people have seen at the hand of SL, you will be shouting at the top of your lungs to destroy SL root and branch. So please put yourself in their place for once before getting ready to step over national dignity of a state of India.

Moving onto the political...

It also doesn't seem to me like this Tamil-Tamil thing goes far. If you see the state of amenities in Tamil Nadu refugee camps, you'll know to what extent they consider Sri Lankan refugees human.

I know that this is simply political rhetoric, but common people's sentiments in Tamil Nadu is genuine, isn't it? I mean these Tamils went long before SL was even born as an independent nation to live there. All until the Sinhala radicals started killing them calling them alien and inferior and what not.

Politics is understandable but not the cost of our people's lives. SL might have been a good friend but it made a very bad mistake by taking our peaceful and friendly nature as weakness. It has to be taught a lesson.

 

[Dinku]

Fishermen are NOT expendable - I agree. But neither are our armed forces. You want to make an enemy of SL, so that in the future, they give China an open door in our backyard? So that we can send hundreds if not thousands of our armed forces into their death if and when hostilities break out?
Have you heard of the word diplomatic strategy? The lesser of the two evil? Finding a friend instead of an enemy?

Think news China already much in SL. Port make. Now very big money give. Sorry not find link.

 

[p2prada]

Pakistan is everything that India is not. It was built on the philosophy that "we will be everything India is not". Its existence is depending only on hating us and our culture.

Pakistan has achieved this goal.

It is indeed everything India is not.

 

[Yatharth Singh]

I heard about separate naval version of LCH, am I right?
SL can wait for few years then. So can others.

Nope. It was the naval variant of armed Dhruv proposed for anti submarine warfare and other utilities. No naval LCH till date as far as i know.

 

[Param]

Right - holier than thou Mr Param - thanks for the personal hits.
Let's see - have you heard the term "for greater good"? Or the famous saying "An eye for an eye ... leaves the whole world blind"?
So, you want to create another enemy out of SL because SL navy might be involved in killing Indian fishermen? You know the story from their side? You know that in the guise of fishermen, Indian tamil sympathizers of LTTE (yes, tamils voting for DMK) were straying into SL waters and supplying weapons to LTTE for about 20 years? Even when IPKF was trying to keep the peace in SL, the tamil sympathizers of LTTE were arming them, many of the same arms were indeed used against the IPKF. You know what it is called? Treason.
it's also called international "terrorism", something we blame on our neighbors too.
Modern Indian fishermen also stray into SL waters, evoking their navy's ire. We need to train and equip our fishermen with locational and communication devices (gps, radios), without which they are sitting ducks.
Fishermen are NOT expendable - I agree. But neither are our armed forces. You want to make an enemy of SL, so that in the future, they give China an open door in our backyard? So that we can send hundreds if not thousands of our armed forces into their death if and when hostilities break out?
Have you heard of the word diplomatic strategy? The lesser of the two evil? Finding a friend instead of an enemy?
So, bottle your harangue if you want to be a responsible citizen of India.

Now I understand that some people when they hear TN fishermen, SL the first thing that comes to their mind is LTTE.

I was only talking about Indian fishermen being killed by a foreign navy, the same country to whom we are planning to sell these war machines.
All I was conveying was that their lives are also important not just the sale of weapons.
But you went deep into the history of the ltte problem, DMK, IPKF and 20 years of weapons supply blah blah blah.

" Let's see - have you heard the term "for greater good"? Or the famous saying "An eye for an eye ... leaves the whole world blind"? "

^^^ when was I demanding revenge or "eye for an eye"??? That's Jumping into conclusions.

I understand the Carrot and stick part but there was no need for you to bring in the SL Tamil issue or TN politics.
Then you make ambiguous statements about Tamils voting for a particular party and calling them supporters of some foreign organisation and expect others to interpret it the way you want it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Nope. It was the naval variant of armed Dhruv proposed for anti submarine warfare and other utilities. No naval LCH till date as far as i know.

It is been planed..

and Progress is going on..

 

[ace009]

I know that strategically we must take some hard decisions but Lankans have been crossing the line these days. Especially after the inaction of MMS and party for the 5 fishermen killed in two weeks by SLN, this is something outrageous. Capturing military markets is one thing and having dignity to at least stand up for fellow countrymen is another.

Tsering,
First let me tell you a story - in 1947, Hindu Bengalis suffered terribly at the hands of Muslim Bengalis. This was repeated again in 1970-71 as Hindu refugees (and muslims too) took refuge from east Pakistan into India. What do you think Bengalis should have done? Massacre the Muslim refugees coming through - for revenge? Instead GOI helped the same muslims from east Pakistan to form Bangladesh.
It was the best thing to do and the most responsible action by the GOI.
Instead of bashing and blaming SL, it is high time that we made them our client state, where their defense system is tied to our defense industry. in which case SLN would be hard pressed to defend their attacks on Indian fishermen.
Otherwise you can threaten them as much as you want - but in the "carrot and stick" policy, all you would show is the stick and get nothing in return.

 

[civfanatic]

Is it possible to insert a remote-activated self-destruction device into the LCH?

If so, we should sell these "modified" LCH to Sri Lanka, so that we can control them in case they try anything funny - like blowing up Indian civilians.

 

[asianobserve]

Is it possible to insert a remote-activated self-destruction device into the LCH?

If so, we should sell these "modified" LCH to Sri Lanka, so that we can control them in case they try anything funny - like blowing up Indian civilians.

Now you are sounding more and more Ameerikan. You're in the big league now...

 

[Yatharth Singh]

It is been planed..

and Progress is going on..

Just on papers and maybe one or two virtual designs. hahaha. Hundreds of project are planned like this every year.