F-18 Advanced Super Hornet

Sancho

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Can F-18 advanced super hornet fit on the INS Vikramditya lift. Sancho
That needs to be seen, Boeing says they can place it in a canted way on the lifts, which acually might work for Vikramditya, because the forward lift is large enough and thx to folding wings the wingspan of the F18 roughly fitting. The real challenge will be IAC1, since the lifts are not that long, only trials will prove it.

When you rank them on suitability for our carriers, it would be...

1. Mig 29K
2. F18SH
3. Rafale M

Having rather small carriers and developing the carrier with different fighters in mind, now will haunt IN. One more reason to do it the right way for IAC2 from the start.
 

sthf

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So when you don't even know for which carriers these fighters are meant for, it's not surprising that you make false conclusions.
On the contrary, I perfectly aware of the shenanigans of the armed forces. LCA Navy MK2, a programme initiated by the Navy itself is yet to take flight but navy is writing it's obituary in the media. These 57 MRCBF is Navy's way to get INS Vishal sanctioned as per their "requirements".

Now let's address the deadline. No disrespect to Admiral Lanba but his deadline of 2020 is wishful thinking on his part.

The F18SH has folding wings and therfore can reduce it's wingspan slightly below 10m and Boeing reportedly aims on fitting the fighter in an angled way to fit on the lifts.
Dassaults only option is to remove the missiles and the wing tips, every time the fighter has to be parked, or placed on the lift and fit it back again, every time if it needs to take off. All that, to get the wingspan down to a similar level that the folded F18SH will have. So at max, they can offer similar wingspan, with an unpractical procedure for proper carrier operations, which means that the F18 is more suitable by size for our carriers.
Not only that Boeing and Dassault are clueless about the dimensions of the lifts, neither of them have actually flew from a STOBAR carrier or a land based test facility. Boeing did attempt that with a F-18 C/D in the 80s and Dassault hasn't even done that.

In the world filled with false claims by defence industry, this is just another attempt to sell snake oil. Essentially getting their foot on the door for "pesky details" to be negotiated at a later stage.

Anybody that wants official figures without making false calculations, but you don't listen and prefer to make conclusions instead. As I already explained, your "calculation" includes 2 types of costs and that's why you get to a higher price. If you want US government confirmation, you can also Google for MoD budgets, that shows the flyaway costs for standard F18s and Growlers too, but you will see the same result.
But at the end of the day it doesn't matter, because even your false calulations showed that the F18SH is cheaper and that's significant in a tender, that should select shortlisted fighters in L1 and L2.
Jesus man, why are you hell bent on listening to the marketing departments of corporations instead of the actual users. There are only two users of SH, both of them operate Growlers so unless IN thinks (and you are certain about it) that SH is great platform but Growlers sucks I don't get your rationale kicking out Growlers from the equation. Same goes for costs, why should I listen to Boeing? Buying costs of both USN & RAN are available. Do me a favour, read them and then feel free to gush over the brochure specifications and costs. Till then adios.
 

binayak95

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We getting a bit off topic here.

Couple of observations to throw in:

1. The MiG 29Ks arguably atrocious availability rates have improved. Especially with the recent exercise that saw night ops. That's a nail in the coffin of the whole nightmare maintenance argument.

2. It still sucks as a carrier borne fighter, simply because of payload/fuel constraints due to the Ski Jump.

3. F-18ASH/Rafale M are the future fighter surely. The Navy brass is split about the choice. But they will make a good choice. Ideal combo would be Indianised Rafale Ms, E-2D hawkeyes and S-70B seahawks. Much will also depend on which dispensation rules White House. Lets hope its not Trump.

4. Hearing rumours that IN wants govt to push Dassault hard, and make them undertake folding wing R&D on their own. Not to get it funded by us like the Russkies did with the MiG-29K.

5. Also hearing that the Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology has essentially ensured access to EMALS and AAG.
 

Kshithij

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We getting a bit off topic here.

Couple of observations to throw in:

1. The MiG 29Ks arguably atrocious availability rates have improved. Especially with the recent exercise that saw night ops. That's a nail in the coffin of the whole nightmare maintenance argument.

2. It still sucks as a carrier borne fighter, simply because of payload/fuel constraints due to the Ski Jump.

3. F-18ASH/Rafale M are the future fighter surely. The Navy brass is split about the choice. But they will make a good choice. Ideal combo would be Indianised Rafale Ms, E-2D hawkeyes and S-70B seahawks. Much will also depend on which dispensation rules White House. Lets hope its not Trump.

4. Hearing rumours that IN wants govt to push Dassault hard, and make them undertake folding wing R&D on their own. Not to get it funded by us like the Russkies did with the MiG-29K.

5. Also hearing that the Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology has essentially ensured access to EMALS and AAG.
Is Rafale of F18 capable of taking off from the ski jump of Indian ships? Isn't MiG29 speciality exactly that? Otherwise, MiG29 is an average plane.
 

binayak95

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Is Rafale of F18 capable of taking off from the ski jump of Indian ships? Isn't MiG29 speciality exactly that? Otherwise, MiG29 is an average plane.
Both the Rafale and the F-18 should be easily capable of taking off from a Ski Jump. Hell, the Russians did it MiG-27s!!!


The thrust to weight ratio of all three birds (MiG 29K, Rafale M and F-18 Super Hornet) are very similar but the question remains of payloads and combat radius.
 

Babloo Singh

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Is Rafale of F18 capable of taking off from the ski jump of Indian ships? Isn't MiG29 speciality exactly that? Otherwise, MiG29 is an average plane.
Both Rafale & F18 will be able to take off from ski jumps on Vikrant & Vikramaditya.
Point is with how much fuel & ammo, if they end up giving same range/ MTOW as Mig 29K, will it be worth spending so much on them. Given that we already have dimensions problem.
With time our availability of Mig29K will improve further as we get to know it better & start stocking correct spares.

For IAC 1 & Vikramaditya Mig 29K seems to be best option, we should explore possibility of using GE 414
in Mig29K... that will improve the reliability/availability should increase MTOW given almost 10% higher power & I guess we will have improved range too, as GE414 will be more efficient than RD series.

As far as IAC 2 Vishal is concerned we should design lifts which can accommodate F-18, Rafale M & even F-35 & then wait for a while.. as it's going to take quiet some time for us in construction may, be AMCA will start taking shape within that time. Basically keep all the options open for IAC 2.
 

Kshithij

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Both Rafale & F18 will be able to take off from ski jumps on Vikrant & Vikramaditya.
Point is with how much fuel & ammo, if they end up giving same range/ MTOW as Mig 29K, will it be worth spending so much on them. Given that we already have dimensions problem.
With time our availability of Mig29K will improve further as we get to know it better & start stocking correct spares.

For IAC 1 & Vikramaditya Mig 29K seems to be best option, we should explore possibility of using GE 414
in Mig29K... that will improve the reliability/availability should increase MTOW given almost 10% higher power & I guess we will have improved range too, as GE414 will be more efficient than RD series.

As far as IAC 2 Vishal is concerned we should design lifts which can accommodate F-18, Rafale M & even F-35 & then wait for a while.. as it's going to take quiet some time for us in construction may, be AMCA will start taking shape within that time. Basically keep all the options open for IAC 2.
IAC-2 is likely to field only indian planes as it is coming in 2024-25. I don't see a need to get imports for it. Also, despite many shortfalls, Indian planes will have better serviceability
 

asianobserve

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xxx SH is great platform but Growlers sucks I don't get your rationale kicking out Growlers from the equation.
The SH Growlers are the best in the business of EW. China is even trying to make a copy. And Growlers are set to become even better with the introduction of the Next Generation Jammer.
 

asianobserve

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For IAC 1 & Vikramaditya Mig 29K seems to be best option, we should explore possibility of using GE 414
in Mig29K... that will improve the reliability/availability should increase MTOW given almost 10% higher power & I guess we will have improved range too, as GE414 will be more efficient than RD series.
That's going to be very difficult and complex technically, economically and politically. In short, it's close to impossibility.
 

Sancho

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Couple of observations to throw in:

1. The MiG 29Ks arguably atrocious availability rates have improved. Especially with the recent exercise that saw night ops. That's a nail in the coffin of the whole nightmare maintenance argument.
How so? That was just a PR exercise for the DM and the media, but doesn't change INs reported issues on the 33MK engines, issues with the airframe because of carrier landings and probably INs own problems with sufficient spares and logistics for the Mig.

2. It still sucks as a carrier borne fighter, simply because of payload/fuel constraints due to the Ski Jump.
Depends on what you want to do with it. For air defence for the CBG and anti ship operations against Pakistan, it's fine. But credibly striking shore bases, or air defence and anti ship against PLAN will be the problem.
 

Sancho

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The thrust to weight ratio of all three birds (MiG 29K, Rafale M and F-18 Super Hornet) are very similar but the question remains of payloads and combat radius.
That's not correct, the TWR of the SH is significantly lower, compared to the other 2, so it needs to be proven if it can take off and with what loads.
 

Sancho

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The SH Growlers are the best in the business of EW. China is even trying to make a copy. And Growlers are set to become even better with the introduction of the Next Generation Jammer.
Growlers as such are not exceptional, it's the jamming pod that was the key, but those are available from Israelis, Russian and the latest from Swedish sources too, not to mention that the individual detection and jamming capabilities of fighters are getting more and more advanced. A standard Rafale can do SEAD just as dedictated F16CJ, F18 Growlers or ECR Tornados, without the need of dedicated escorts jamming. Customizing the F18 EW is surely a must for IN and if required Skyshield or Arexis escorts jammers could be an option too.
 

binayak95

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How so? That was just a PR exercise for the DM and the media, but doesn't change INs reported issues on the 33MK engines, issues with the airframe because of carrier landings and probably INs own problems with sufficient spares and logistics for the Mig.



Depends on what you want to do with it. For air defence for the CBG and anti ship operations against Pakistan, it's fine. But credibly striking shore bases, or air defence and anti ship against PLAN will be the problem.
1. Night ops are far more significant than just a PR exercise. I do believe that neither the Russians nor the PLAN can even think of doing night ops. No navy will conduct sortie ops at night with fighters that have "availability issues". A lot of work was done with IAF's help to enhance their maintainability.

2. Precisely my point. It is effectively an Air Defence fighter. To enable it to conduct long range interdiction, it'll need Mid Air refuelling support. Maybe from future aircraft from the IAC-II, maybe from the IAF.
 

binayak95

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That's not correct, the TWR of the SH is significantly lower, compared to the other 2, so it needs to be proven if it can take off and with what loads.
Is it? Lemme see if I can find the source.
 

Sancho

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1. Night ops are far more significant than just a PR exercise. I do believe that neither the Russians nor the PLAN can even think of doing night ops. No navy will conduct sortie ops at night with fighters that have "availability issues". A lot of work was done with IAF's help to enhance their maintainability.

2. Precisely my point. It is effectively an Air Defence fighter. To enable it to conduct long range interdiction, it'll need Mid Air refuelling support. Maybe from future aircraft from the IAC-II, maybe from the IAF.
Night operation and availability have no relation. Also mid air refuelling can be done by Mig 29Ks in tanker roles, just as Rafale M or F18 SH do it too.

Is it? Lemme see if I can find the source.
F18 is below 1, the others above. That's why Boeing offered the EPE engine option late in the MMRCA, to in theory be able to meet the TWR of 1 or higher requirement in the tender.
 

binayak95

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Night operation and availability have no relation. Also mid air refuelling can be done by Mig 29Ks in tanker roles, just as Rafale M or F18 SH do it too.



F18 is below 1, the others above. That's why Boeing offered the EPE engine option late in the MMRCA, to in theory be able to meet the TWR of 1 or higher requirement in the tender.
1. Really? Do you have any idea just how difficult and dangerous it is to conduct night sorties from an Aircraft Carrier? Sorties that include both arrested recoveries and take off.
The Indian military takes the greatest precautions when any sort of supervised ops are conducted. If any equipment is liable to fail or is having issues, it is taken off the list.
Add the fact that is was the Raksha Mantri who was on board and the fact that it was night ops shows just how faith the IN reposes now in the MiG 29K and the men of INAS 303. Also chatter from the Malabar exercise seemed to suggest improved availability.

2. Agreed. I stand corrected. The F-18 doesn't have anything close to the TWR of the MiG 29K and the Rafale M.
 

Sancho

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1. Really? Do you have any idea just how difficult and dangerous it is to conduct night sorties from an Aircraft Carrier? Sorties that include both arrested recoveries and take off.
You are mixing up things here. Night missions are more demanding for the pilot, not the fighter. The forces created during landings are the same at day and night, that's why that mission has no relation to the technical situation of the fighter and it's availability.

Also chatter from the Malabar exercise seemed to suggest improved availability.
Yes maintainability has been improved, but still is not at levels of IAFs Mig 29s and most likely not of western counterparts.
Besides the technical issues due to carrier landings will be a concern over the service life, which shows the risks of navalising a fighter designed for land bases, compared to fighters that were designed for carrier operations from the beginning (something to learn for ADA and AMCA).
Add the fact that INs long term vision is a catobar carrier and you know why they aim on fighters that offer interoperability for all 3 carriers.
 

Sancho

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Scrolling' the Battle Space

F/A-18 Block III cockpit offers god's-eye view of the world

January 17, 2018

Next generation touch screen technology is the future for the Boeing Block III F/A-18 Super Hornet. The Advanced Cockpit System (ACS) is a 10X19 inch touch screen that pilots can use the same way we use phones and tablets in our daily lives.

“What ACS provides to that air crew in the jet is a flexible interface to the world of information that is in the [F/A-18] in an intuitive easy to act upon format, whether it’s what they see or touch on screen. That allows them to take maximum advantage to all the information that is available for the mission,” said Gregory Hardy, Boeing ACS program manager. “So with a touch screen, what that allows us to do is the entire surface is useful for information. Just like on your phones.”
http://www.boeing.com/features/2018/01/super-hornet-cockpit-01-18.page

Check the video in the link!
 

WolfPack86

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What if Indian Navy selects F-18 advanced super hornet and HAL build 57 F-18 advanced super hornet if there is any chance numbers might reach to 100. Sancho.
 

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