F-16 Viper

[Flying Dagger]

Why would somebody sell a multi-million Dollar weapons system in a defense forum?

?

 

[MirageBlue]

Replaced with what? There are around 100 Mig-21 in IAF. What is the replacement rate with LCA?

Better product than Rafale exists already that every major airforce in the world is buying. Fanboys

There are 12 Su-30MKIs that are going to be contracted for since the Acceptance of Necessity was granted by the MoD. They will be the last Sukhois delivered to the IAF before the line closes. Then there's 21 MiG-29UPGs that will most likely be contracted this year. They will form one more MiG-29UPG squadron.

Apart from them, there's 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons that will be fully ops in a couple of years and 2 Rafale squadrons as well. So the Bisons will be retired by 2025 for sure. By 2025, the first Tejas Mk1A squadron would also have been formed.

So all in all, there are enough airframes coming in to replace the Bisons. But there will still be an overall shortage that has to be addressed and the 114 MRFA contest is not the answer to that. Only an off the shelf acquisition of 36-48 Rafales will address that somewhat.

 

[MirageBlue]

F-16 AESA can “see” large aircraft like SU-30 way before Su-30 (even with BARS which is obsolete) can see F-16.

The RCS of SU-30 (15m2) is too large to hide anywhere from a decent radar let alone state of the art RACR. I am not going to go in details of already well known information

BARS is obsolete?! LOL!!

There are thousands of fighters flying with mechanically scanned array radars developed in the late 1990s and early 2000s and you call a radar that was fully developed with all modes in the mid to late 2000s as obsolete?!

It isn't state of the art, but calling it obsolete is pure bunkum.

 

[MirageBlue]

No one brought F-22 or troubled F-35 to compare with Rafale apart from you.

This non-sense zibber zabber only tells how insecure you are to pitch F-16 against Rafale.

Gripen E is also better than F-16 in terms of RCS, avionics, GaN based AESA radar MBDA Meteor already integrated etc etc.

F-16s stand no chance against china while against American ally Pakistan we will use our Indo French Russian arsenal.

Tejas is there to replace whatever left of Mig 21 and is a much better transition for IAF than F-16s

In short both technologically & politically F-16s brings nothing but downgrade to the table now.

Gripen E may have a slightly lower RCS than F-21, but the overall RCS difference will be negligible especially when they're carrying stores externally. F-16s are now also appearing in the 5th gen Have Glass grey paint that basically uses RAM coatings to reduce the RCS of the fighter it is applied on.

Have Glass V on F-16s

The Gripen E also has a GaAs AESA radar in the swashplate equipped Selex Raven ES-05A and not a GaN radar. One advantage it has is the Meteor which the F-21 cannot get in most likelihood. But if the F-21 was to be completely/mostly indigenised with Indians getting access to source codes to integrate the Astra Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3, then that disadvantage is minimized..however, integration of these indigenous weapons with any foreign fighter and testing them is no small task.



F-21s will be excellent 4th gen fighters in any part of the world, there is simply no doubt about it. As they stand, the upgraded F-16Vs will form the primary bulwark of Taiwan's air defence against PLAAF fighters.

The bias against the F-16 (and F-21) is very strong in a lot of people due to it's Paki association for so many decades. But in overall performance, avionics, payload, operating costs, sheer variety of stores integrated, it is always a very strong contender. The weakest points in air to air now are related to the lack of integration with the latest European missiles that the IAF would want, such as Meteor and ASRAAM.

 

[MirageBlue]

F-16 doesn't have enough lift to operate from high altitude areas like Ladakh, especially in summer.

Not true at all. The T/W ratio of the F-16 has never been an issue, even with sizeable payloads.

 

[asianobserve]

I don't think F-16 is handicapped by its AMRAAM missile as compared to Meteor. Just recently USAF claimed the longest known air to air missile shot downing most probably a high performance BQM-167 target drone using AMRAAM D beyond 100 miles.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...to-air-missile-shot-during-u-s-air-force-test

 

[MirageBlue]

I don't think F-16 is handicapped by its AMRAAM missile as compared to Meteor. Just recently USAF claimed the longest known air to air missile shot downing most probably a high performance BQM-167 target drone using AMRAAM D beyond 100 miles.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...to-air-missile-shot-during-u-s-air-force-test

Shooting down a drone that may or may not be maneuvering hard versus taking down a fighter that will likely be maneuvering hard to avoid being shot down is quite different, that too at very long distances.

Secondly, the AIM-120D still uses just 1 motor, and is NOT a dual pulse missile. So endgame maneuvering at long distances will not be anywhere near as good as it is for a throttlable motor like that on the Meteor which can modulate the thrust for preserving highest energy at the end. The No-Escape Zone as a result, will be far smaller for the AIM-120D than it is for the Meteor.

So there is a big difference in how dangerous a Meteor will be to a target at long distances versus what a AMRAAM 120D will be.

 

[asianobserve]

Shooting down a drone that may or may not be maneuvering hard versus taking down a fighter that will likely be maneuvering hard to avoid being shot down is quite different, that too at very long distances.

Secondly, the AIM-120D still uses just 1 motor, and is NOT a dual pulse missile. So endgame maneuvering at long distances will not be anywhere near as good as it is for a throttlable motor like that on the Meteor which can modulate the thrust for preserving highest energy at the end. The No-Escape Zone as a result, will be far smaller for the AIM-120D than it is for the Meteor.

So there is a big difference in how dangerous a Meteor will be to a target at long distances versus what a AMRAAM 120D will be.

What this exercise is telling you is that it's very hard to shoot down a target at more than 100 miles. In fact most successful missile shots will be inside 100 kms., which I think (guess) is within AIM120D's NEZ. That's why stealth is a game changer as it can get closer to 4th gen without being detected.

 

[Flying Dagger]

What this exercise is telling you is that it's very hard to shoot down a target at more than 100 miles. In fact most successful missile shots will be inside 100 kms., which I think (guess) is within AIM120D's NEZ. That's why stealth is a game changer as it can get closer to 4th gen without being detected.

Dont guess... 120 D has no where close to 100 km as NEZ may be one fourth of it.

Meteor on the contrary have 60-70 km .

 

[Flying Dagger]

Gripen E may have a slightly lower RCS than F-21, but the overall RCS difference will be negligible especially when they're carrying stores externally. F-16s are now also appearing in the 5th gen Have Glass grey paint that basically uses RAM coatings to reduce the RCS of the fighter it is applied on.

Have Glass V on F-16s

The Gripen E also has a GaAs AESA radar in the swashplate equipped Selex Raven ES-05A and not a GaN radar. One advantage it has is the Meteor which the F-21 cannot get in most likelihood. But if the F-21 was to be completely/mostly indigenised with Indians getting access to source codes to integrate the Astra Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3, then that disadvantage is minimized..however, integration of these indigenous weapons with any foreign fighter and testing them is no small task.



F-21s will be excellent 4th gen fighters in any part of the world, there is simply no doubt about it. As they stand, the upgraded F-16Vs will form the primary bulwark of Taiwan's air defence against PLAAF fighters.

The bias against the F-16 (and F-21) is very strong in a lot of people due to it's Paki association for so many decades. But in overall performance, avionics, payload, operating costs, sheer variety of stores integrated, it is always a very strong contender. The weakest points in air to air now are related to the lack of integration with the latest European missiles that the IAF would want, such as Meteor and ASRAAM.

Basically you have said Gripen have advantages over F-16s in avionics radar weapon package .

Regarding RAM coating to reduce rcs that can be employed by any jet. But they are expensive to maintain.

Regarding Bias against F-16s well there is no bias but fact that its american that means lots of string attached to it.

Not much benefit for us considering we have our own flourishing aerospace industry now with Tejas Mk2 and TedBF coming up in next 5 years apart from LCAs and Rafale joining in.

 

[Wisemarko]

And here you are trying to pimp out the best 4th gen fighter jet to a country which can't afford it as per you.
Fcukin failure in your job.

We have our own aviation industry which we will rather support than putting money on american crap.

We have an ally in Russia which can provide us better value for money.

We have European partners like France which provide us cutting edge tech with Rafale and offcourse cheaper than F-16s since we can't afford expensive crappy F-16 .

These three Factors completely rule out American fighter jet entry in India ever.

You should have predicted it long back.

I am not selling anything and I don’t think anyone here is buying anything either.

US defense industry did just fine without India for decades and can continue to do so.

Remember that request for weapon sale come to US DoD/ DCA from India, not the other way around. So you can do less with bravado and more with a dose of reality.

 

[liuqi10]

His bloody works are like the massacre of Nanjing! Maybe he’s the descendant of the japanese! The one who doesn’t know about it may regard it as the illustrations of a horror novel! #Huayong#

 

[Tang]

I am not selling anything and I don’t think anyone here is buying anything either.

US defense industry did just fine without India for decades and can continue to do so.

Remember that request for weapon sale come to US DoD/ DCA from India, not the other way around. So you can do less with bravado and more with a dose of reality.

The request for weapon sale was by LM to get clearance to sell it to India.

India just sent an RFI, as it did with others, don't be so salty, sell your F16 to Iraqis who are grounding this jet.

 

[Wisemarko]

The request for weapon sale was by LM to get clearance to sell it to India.

India just sent an RFI, as it did with others, don't be so salty, sell your F16 to Iraqis who are grounding this jet.

It’s ok if you don’t understand how tenders work: you can add this to your kitty of things you don’t know.

As the name suggests: RFI is Request for Information. Which surprisingly is a “request” by foreign governments (India here) to either
1. US government for FMS route - (MH-60R sale to India) or
2. Vendor for DCS route - (P-8 sale to India)

Vendor cannot respond to RFI unless cleared by US government to do so.

You don’t have to respond to me just for sake of it. It will serve you better to learn something than spewing ignorance.

 

[Tang]

It’s ok if you don’t understand how tenders work: you can add this to your kitty of things you don’t know.

As the name suggests: RFI is Request for Information. Which surprisingly is a “request” by foreign governments (India here) to either
1. US government for FMS route - (MH-60R sale to India) or
2. Vendor for DCS route - (P-8 sale to India)

Vendor cannot respond to RFI unless cleared by US government to do so.

You don’t have to respond to me just for sake of it. It will serve you better to learn something than spewing ignorance.

RFI was sent to LM(as in case for every other defence manufacturers), and if LM was not interested to sell to India, they wouldn't ask US govt for permission.

Your initial statement was India asked US govt for permission for f16, which isn't the case.

Six global companies respond to India's RFI for 110 fighter jets

The six firms which are competing for the IAF contract worth billions of dollars are Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Eurofighter, Saab and Russian United Aircraft Corporation

m.economictimes.com

 

[Flying Dagger]

It’s ok if you don’t understand how tenders work: you can add this to your kitty of things you don’t know.

As the name suggests: RFI is Request for Information. Which surprisingly is a “request” by foreign governments (India here) to either
1. US government for FMS route - (MH-60R sale to India) or
2. Vendor for DCS route - (P-8 sale to India)

Vendor cannot respond to RFI unless cleared by US government to do so.

You don’t have to respond to me just for sake of it. It will serve you better to learn something than spewing ignorance.

Stop lying like a cheap salesman just to respond and make some stupid point.

Those acquisition were made because USA asked India to buy weapon from them by threatening the trade etc . Else we wouldn't have.. and you know that well.

American defense industry did worked fine without India....

To maintain lead in tech is getting expensive and we have a big market here...

why are these companies roaming here?

F-16 /F-18 were offered by LM which asked to be part of MMRCA.

Do you even understand the process of RFI. It is issued in general and suppliers respond to it or sometimes vendor known to have those products and offered interest to sell are informed with a copy to be part of it.

US gov approval is a separate process. But then you had tonrespond with something go on..make more of those unwise arguments.

 

[lixun]

It’s ok if you don’t understand how tenders work: you can add this to your kitty of things you don’t know.

As the name suggests: RFI is Request for Information. Which surprisingly is a “request” by foreign governments (India here) to either
1. US government for FMS route - (MH-60R sale to India) or
2. Vendor for DCS route - (P-8 sale to India)

Vendor cannot respond to RFI unless cleared by US government to do so.

You don’t have to respond to me just for sake of it. It will serve you better to learn something than spewing ignorance.

Do you really think India bought Rafale to counter the Chinese Air Force's Three Musketeers: J20, J16, 10C?

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Do you really think India bought Rafale to counter the Chinese Air Force's Three Musketeers: J20, J16, 10C?

Yes

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Do you really think India bought Rafale to counter the Chinese Air Force's Three Musketeers: J20, J16, 10C?

Why do you think , india bought Rafael then ?

 

[lixun]

Why do you think , india bought Rafael then ?

Do you know how the war between China and India will proceed in the future?
Do you know what the weaknesses and strengths of the Chinese military are?
Do you know what are the strengths and weaknesses of the Indian Air Force?
Do you know what the tactical theory of the Indian Air Force is?