F-16 Viper

[Abhay Rajput 02]

Both Rafale and F-16 Block 70 have cutting edge EW, sensor fusion, and weapons. And we do not know and will not know the true extent of their capabilities since they will always be confidential perhaps for another 50 years.

I daresay that the F-16 Block 70 benefits from LM's experience with F-22 and F-35 from radar to EW to sensor fusions, both platforms having the most cutting edge offensive and defensive systems on any fighter right now. And don't even mention weapons for the F-16 has the longest list of any fighter for weapons options, just take a look:

F-16
Guns: 1 × 20 mm (0.787 in) M61A1 Vulcan 6-barrel rotary cannon, 511 rounds

• Hardpoints: 2 × wing-tip air-to-air missile launch rails, 6 × under-wing, and 3 × under-fuselage pylon (2 of 3 for sensors) stations with a capacity of up to 17,000 lb (7,700 kg) of stores,
• Rockets:
  • 4 × LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19/7 × Hydra 70 mm/APKWS[337] rockets, respectively)
  • 4 × LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19 × CRV7 70 mm rockets)
  • 4 × LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4 × Zuni 127 mm rockets)
• Missiles:
  • Air-to-air missiles:
    • 6 × AIM-9 Sidewinder
    • 6 × AIM-120 AMRAAM
    • 6 × IRIS-T
    • 6 × Python-4
    • 6 × Python-5
  • Air-to-surface missiles:
    • 6 × AGM-65 Maverick
    • 2 × AGM-88 HARM
    • AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM)
    • 4 × AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW)
  • Anti-ship missiles:
    • 2 × AGM-84 Harpoon
    • 4 × AGM-119 Penguin
• Bombs:
  • 8 × CBU-87 Combined Effects Munition
  • 8 × CBU-89 Gator mine
  • 8 × CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon
  • 4 × Mark 84 general-purpose bombs
  • 8 × Mark 83 GP bombs
  • 12 × Mark 82 GP bombs
  • 8 × GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb (SDB)
  • 4 × GBU-10 Paveway II
  • 6 × GBU-12 Paveway II
  • 4 × GBU-24 Paveway III
  • 4 × GBU-27 Paveway III
  • 4 × Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) series
  • Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)
  • B61 nuclear bomb
  • B83 nuclear bomb

Rafale
Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.2 in) GIAT 30/M791 autocannon with 125 rounds

• Hardpoints:14 for Air Force versions (Rafale B/C), 13 for Navy version (Rafale M) with a capacity of 9,500 kg (20,900 lb) external fuel and ordnance,with provisions to carry combinations of:
  • Missiles:
  • Air-to-air:
    • Magic II
    • MBDA MICA IR or EM
    • MBDA Meteor
  • Air-to-ground:
    • MBDA Apache
    • MBDA Storm Shadow/SCALP-EG
    • AASM-Hammer (SBU-38/54/64)
    • GBU-12 Paveway II, GBU-16 Paveway II, GBU-22 Paveway III, GBU-24 Paveway III, GBU-49 Enhanced Paveway II
    • AS-30L
    • Mark 82[342]
  • Air-to-surface:
    • MBDA AM 39-Exocet anti-ship missile
  • Nuclear Deterrence:
    • ASMP-A nuclear missile

if you think f16 block 70 ew or sensor fusion is as good as rafale , you are delusional. in our competition rafale had the best sensor fusion, radar and ew. it also have the best pilot impression . the same thing was said in swiss competition too. there is no secret in leaked reports. and do remember that rafale did not had aesa radar then. we have already seen f21 capabilities . and rafale was far ahead in ew , sensor fusion and weapons. even in radar its better than f16s. plus you should know f22,f35 are very different than smaller f16. f35 has such good ew because of its multiple arrays . you will not find that on f16 same with sensor fusion. rafale can get firing solution on f16 while being completely passive. f16 cant do that. LM even agreed to move f16 prodution line to india yet we still rejected it because its not that good. we like f18 block 3 more because its better than f16 in every way . rafale is better than any non stealthy jet as of now. when new aam will enter service in usa , then f18 block 3 will be a close match . Also rafale has good enough weapons albeit little expensive.

 

[Wisemarko]

Btw the same LCA's variant is kicking out the prospect of IAF buying your outdated jet.

Don't think American products are to the moon, or the reality will hit you hard, like it did in 65 71 wars and vietnam war

Not just American products even Americans have been to the moon.

Don’t think IAF has enough money to buy anything from MMRCA. Probably some used Migs and some LCA is all that you’ll see.

 

[Wisemarko]

Rafale, SH, F15EX, GripenE are similarly capable fighters. They are at the cutting edge of fighter tech only below F-22 and F-35. The differences are in cost.

The longest BVR shot ever succeeded was less than 25 miles (37km). Over reliance on technical data and marketing materials makes these discussions unrealistic and at times unreasonable. I agree that Indian defense outlook is highly influenced by Soviets and change has been painful and slow.

 

[asianobserve]

The longest BVR shot ever succeeded was less than 25 miles (37km). Over reliance on technical data and marketing materials makes these discussions unrealistic and at times unreasonable. I agree that Indian defense outlook is highly influenced by Soviets and change has been painful and slow.

Indian defense establishment is stuck in 1971.

 

[Tang]

The longest BVR shot ever succeeded was less than 25 miles (37km). Over reliance on technical data and marketing materials makes these discussions unrealistic and at times unreasonable. I agree that Indian defense outlook is highly influenced by Soviets and change has been painful and slow.

There is term as No escape zone,
Please read about it and come back later.

 

[Tang]

Not just American products even Americans have been to the moon.

Don’t think IAF has enough money to buy anything from MMRCA. Probably some used Migs and some LCA is all that you’ll see.

IAF is definitely not buying your old F16, heck even USAF is now asking for a low cost 5gen minus plane

USAF mulls 4.5/5 gen minus clean sheet fighter to replace F-16, thinks to use the F-35 less to mitigate F135 engine wear issues - The Aviation Geek Club

USAF mulls 4.5/5 gen minus clean sheet fighter to replace F-16, thinks to use the F-35 less to mitigate F135 engine wear issues

theaviationgeekclub.com

 

[Wisemarko]

There is term as No escape zone,
Please read about it and come back later.

I must have read that in my 25 year career in aeronautical engineering.

 

[Wisemarko]

IAF is definitely not buying your old F16, heck even USAF is now asking for a low cost 5gen minus plane

USAF mulls 4.5/5 gen minus clean sheet fighter to replace F-16, thinks to use the F-35 less to mitigate F135 engine wear issues - The Aviation Geek Club

USAF mulls 4.5/5 gen minus clean sheet fighter to replace F-16, thinks to use the F-35 less to mitigate F135 engine wear issues

theaviationgeekclub.com

Repeating same words don’t make them more useful. India is not buying anything but used Migs. No money to make capital purchase. Let bravado go and care for the immediate issues.

 

[Tang]

I must have read that in my 25 year career in aeronautical engineering.

Then I am more suprised!
You are ignoring the evolution of BVRs then,

Do you think USAF is fool, that it is asking its vendors to develop long range BVR to counter Chinese PL15 and European meteor?

 

[Tang]

Repeating same words don’t make them more useful. India is not buying anything but used Migs. No money to make capital purchase. Let bravado go and care for the immediate issues.

India already bought 36 Rafale as first tranche.
Do not worry for the funds, worry about USAF unable to fund sustainment of F35 for long term.

Best Regards

 

[asianobserve]

Then I am more suprised!
You are ignoring the evolution of BVRs then,

Do you think USAF is fool, that it is asking its vendors to develop long range BVR to counter Chinese PL15 and European meteor?

USAF was ahead in ramjet A2A tech. Ever heard of AIM152 and FRAAM? There's a good reason why it did not pursue ramjet AMRAAM and why none of its upcoming A2A missiles are ramjet powered.

It's like bullpop and conventional AR-15 debate, which is better? Hint, more upcoming battle rifles are AR15 type...

 

[Tang]

USAF was ahead in ramjet A2A tech. Ever heard of AIM152 and FRAAM? There's a good reason why it did not pursue ramjet AMRAAM and why none of its upcoming A2A missiles are ramjet powered.

It's like bullpop and conventional AR-15 debate, which is better? Hint, more upcoming battle rifles are AR15 type...

But now they are asking for long range BVR, isn't it?
There are multiple projects like these which require massive funding, so USAF/Pentagon might not pursue after seeing the competition level (Russia China etc.) But might later revive it as in this case.
Further there are multiple weapon manufacturers lobbies in US, check why AH-56 was not given go ahead.

 

[asianobserve]

But now they are asking for long range BVR, isn't it?
There are multiple projects like these which require massive funding, so USAF/Pentagon might not pursue after seeing the competition level (Russia China etc.) But might later revive it as in this case.
Further there are multiple weapon manufacturers lobbies in US, check why AH-56 was not given go ahead.

Rest assured that US will always fund critical weapons systems unlike Russia who extorts gullible client countries for weapons development funding. Just under Biden the US has increased it's R&D budget.

In A2A weapons the US is known to be developing several AAM including AIM260 and ERW.

 

[Tang]

Rest assured that US will always fund critical weapons systems unlike Russia who extorts gullible client countries for weapons development funding. Just under Biden the US has increased it's R&D budget.

In A2A weapons the US is known to be developing several AAM including AIM260 and ERW.

That's what I have said,
Now it is developing 200km range BVR isn't it?
Rest check about AH-56

 

[asianobserve]

That's what I have said,
Now it is developing 200km range BVR isn't it?
Rest check about AH-56

What about AH56? It's a what if and it's pointless to be talking about what if's. I don't know if you want to be strapped to a rotating gunner's chair while the helicopter maneuvers?

 

[Tang]

What about AH56? It's a what if and it's pointless to be talking about what if's. I don't know if you want to be strapped to a rotating gunner's chair while the helicopter maneuvers?

It's pointless talking to you,
You can't understand anything.

Good day.

 

[asianobserve]

It's pointless talking to you,
You can't understand anything.

Good day.

I know what you mean. But "what if" programs elicit a lot of symphatetic conspiracies.

 

[Wisemarko]

India already bought 36 Rafale as first tranche.
Do not worry for the funds, worry about USAF unable to fund sustainment of F35 for long term.

Best Regards

I don’t worry. I predict- that’s my job. Worry about things you understand (such as what is aircraft, how it flies, what is BVR combat and how it works) before worrying about USAF budget.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I don’t worry. I predict- that’s my job. Worry about things you understand (such as what is aircraft, how it flies, what is BVR combat and how it works) before worrying about USAF budget.

And here you are trying to pimp out the best 4th gen fighter jet to a country which can't afford it as per you.
Fcukin failure in your job.

We have our own aviation industry which we will rather support than putting money on american crap.

We have an ally in Russia which can provide us better value for money.

We have European partners like France which provide us cutting edge tech with Rafale and offcourse cheaper than F-16s since we can't afford expensive crappy F-16 .

These three Factors completely rule out American fighter jet entry in India ever.

You should have predicted it long back.

 

[asianobserve]

And here you are trying to pimp out the best 4th gen fighter jet to a country which can't afford it as per you.
Fcukin failure in your job.

We have our own aviation industry which we will rather support than putting money on american crap.

We have an ally in Russia which can provide us better value for money.

We have European partners like France which provide us cutting edge tech with Rafale and offcourse cheaper than F-16s since we can't afford expensive crappy F-16 .

These three Factors completely rule out American fighter jet entry in India ever.

You should have predicted it long back.

Why would somebody sell a multi-million Dollar weapons system in a defense forum?