Exciting Times for Chinese Aircraft Engines!

SexyChineseLady

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we all know the engine core comes from russia . Probably derived from AL41F
The official US report on China from the Pentagon does not seem to know!


China began on developing the core for the WS-10 in the 1980s based off the CFM-56 according to Pentagon.

In 1982, China bought 2 CFM-56II Turbofan engines China's Trident airliners. The US Department of Defense worried about this export, because the CFM-56 was based on the core of the F101-GE-102 engine which was used in B-1B Lancer bomber.

The WS-10 project began mass production in 2010 for J-11B. The AL-41? It was on the SU-35 and SU-57 and nothing else. Even India did not get AL-41 for MKI. This is a later development than WS-10 ;)
 

MiG-29SMT

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The official US report on China from the Pentagon does not seem to know!


China began on developing the core for the WS-10 in the 1980s based off the CFM-56 according to Pentagon.

In 1982, China bought 2 CFM-56II Turbofan engines China's Trident airliners. The US Department of Defense worried about this export, because the CFM-56 was based on the core of the F101-GE-102 engine which was used in B-1B Lancer bomber.

The WS-10 project began mass production in 2010 for J-11B. The AL-41? It was on the SU-35 and SU-57 and nothing else. Even India did not get AL-41 for MKI. This is a later development than WS-10 ;)
yes China is so reliable that J-7 is not a MiG-21, Su-27 is not J-11 or J-16 is not Su-30, so reliable that an airliner turbofan is not a military engine to turn CFM-56 into a jet engine you make a new engine which only uses a few core parts but most of the technology is different

1643885593730.png


Trent engine basically a multinational program
1643885668103.png

CFM56

1643885730292.png



1643885898385.png



using some core technologies does not mean you have the same engine it is a pipe dream, since Chine had access to other engines but WS-10 is a Frankenstein that uses also Al-31 tech and Russia also says that

1643885767862.png
 
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MiG-29SMT

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LOL. If you wait for someone to share engine technology you will be waiting for a very long time.

Good luck to you waiting for foreign help.

For China, It takes a national effort like for HSR and the carrier programs and engines are outlined in 5-Year Plans:


China outlines push to develop domestic engine for C919 jet in five-year plan

China will push forward with the development of CJ1000, a turbofan jet engine designed to power the homemade C919 narrowbody aircraft, the government said on Friday in its development plan for the 2021-2025 period.

We will see a flight test of the CJ1000 civilian engine soon ;)

This is the difference between an industry and a project. When you have a project like Kaveri or imaginary Mexican fighter engine you can wait for foreign help.

No one can help you set up an industry that has many engines being built or in development -- WS-9, WS-11, WS-17, WS-13, WS-19, WS-10, WS-15, WS-20, CJ1000, etc.

(Seriously, good luck to India's Kaveri waiting for help from all her friends -- US, UK, France and Russia. With so many friends sharing engine technology, it must be easy according to the Mexican. Indians themselves must know this is not true.)
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By 2006, the People's Republic of China managed to develop its analogue, the WS-10 engine, based on the Russian AL-31F engine, created in the late 70s of the last century. However, despite the presence of this motor, serial J-11s are still equipped with AL-31F engines. Also, this engine is planned to be used on the J-10 single-engine fighter developed in China with the participation of Russian engineers based on the Israeli Lavi project.

 
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WatcherOfWatchers

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that is not common sense, that is a wikipedia article that any can edit (specially Chinese forum fans) an engine for an Airliner is different to a military jet since on an airliner the fan size has grown because the main thrust comes from the air mass, a fighter engine has to be small, thin, so its main thrust comes from temperature, means a very hot engine, totally different concepts

View attachment 135521

On the Trent fuel consumption is avoided by pulling very big masses of air

View attachment 135522

On F135 is very hot air and low bypass what generates thrust, so you need very high temperatures because the masses of air are reduced due to smaller cross section.

How does a turbofan engine work? The incoming air is captured by the engine inlet. Some of the incoming air passes through the fan and continues on into the core compressor and then the burner, where it is mixed with fuel and combustion occurs. The hot exhaust passes through the core and fan turbines and then out the nozzle, as in a basic turbojet. The rest of the incoming air passes through the fan and bypasses, or goes around the engine, just like the air through a propeller. The air that goes through the fan has a velocity that is slightly increased from free stream. So a turbofan gets some of its thrust from the core and some of its thrust from the fan. The ratio of the air that goes around the engine to the air that goes through the core is called the bypass ratio.

Because the fuel flow rate for the core is changed only a small amount by the addition of the fan, a turbofan generates more thrust for nearly the same amount of fuel used by the core
. This means that a turbofan is very fuel efficient. In fact, high bypass ratio turbofans are nearly as fuel efficient as turboprops. Because the fan is enclosed by the inlet and is composed of many blades, it can operate efficiently at higher speeds than a simple propeller.


I can only say you lack common knowledge about jet engines. Of course, the main trust source is different, but CFM56 and F101 share the same core module. CFM56 is a derivative from F101 by removing the afterburner and converting it into a high by-pass fan.

BTW do you even know the LM2500 gas turbine is developed from the CF6 jet engine? You certainly don't believe it right? Do your research.
 

MiG-29SMT

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I can only say you lack common knowledge about jet engines. Of course, the main trust source is different, but CFM56 and F101 share the same core module. CFM56 is a derivative from F101 by removing the afterburner and converting it into a high by-pass fan.

BTW do you even know the LM2500 gas turbine is developed from the CF6 jet engine? You certainly don't believe it right? Do your research.
CFM56 and F101 are not the same engine, for starters CFM56 has a new low pressure fan and low pressure turbine designed by Zafran (snecma), this increases the bypass and eliminates the afterburner.

A bigger low pressure fan means lower RPM those it uses a different gear spool system.
1643932160689.png

Since China never got to see the F101, to develop a similar engine they needed a basic model, that model was Al-31, which is a different engine to F101, now you might think CFM56 is simpler, airliners have more strict demands since they fly passengers, fly more often, and requiere lower SFC (specific fuel consumption).

China copied mostly Al-31, since all earlier engines they had were less advanced, and the Al-31 has been used on J-10, J-11 and J-20.

Low bypass engines often have a multistage fan which generates a low volume but relatively high speed air stream whereas high bypass engines usually have a single stage fan which generates a high volume but relatively low speed air stream. The fan airflow, referred to as the cold air stream, is accelerated by the fan and passes through the engine remaining outside of the engine core. The cold air stream moves much slower than the hot stream gas flow passing through the engine core. The cold stream serves to help cool the engine core and is then mixed with the hot stream exhaust to decrease both the temperature and the speed of the jet core exhaust flow. This speed reduction serves to both reduce the noise generated by the engine and to increase the engine efficiency by more closely matching the speed of the exhaust flow to the design speed of the aircraft.

1643933077658.png


1643933277277.png

1643933327408.png
 
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MiG-29SMT

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I can only say you lack common knowledge about jet engines. Of course, the main trust source is different, but CFM56 and F101 share the same core module. CFM56 is a derivative from F101 by removing the afterburner and converting it into a high by-pass fan.

BTW do you even know the LM2500 gas turbine is developed from the CF6 jet engine? You certainly don't believe it right? Do your research.
1643933490262.png


1643933805611.png
 

ym888

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J-20 Begins Flying With Groundbreaking WS-15 Engine: Will China’s Stealth Fighter be the World Leader in Thrust?

January-15th-2022

J-20 Stealth Fighter

J-20 Stealth Fighter

The first image is allegedly showing a Chinese J-20 fifth-generation fighter flight testing the long-awaited WS-15 engine have been released, following multiple indications that the new engine is set to enter service by 2025. The WS-15 was previously tested on a number of larger non-combat airframes, and its integration onto a fighter indicates it has reached an advanced stage of development. As is typical for initial tests the fighter used one WS-15 and one older WS-10 engine, as the reliability of the new engine remains uncertain so flying it with an older one provides engine redundancy and allows the fighter to land on the power of the WS-10 if needed. Designed by the Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, the WS-15 is to be manufactured by the Xian Aeroengine Corporation and is expected to have greater fuel efficiency and far greater power than its predecessor, providing the J-20 with a much greater endurance and superior flight performance. The engine is expected to make the J-20 the world's leader among fighters and interceptors in terms of thrust output, at least until the first sixth generation fighters enter service, meaning the engine will have a greater thrust and any other used by a twin-engine fighter. It's closest competitors are the upcoming Saturn 30 to be used by the Russian Su-57 and possibly the Su-34 fighters, the D-30 used by the MiG-31, and the F119 used by the American F-22.. The most powerful fighter engine and service worldwide today is the F135 which powers the American F-35 single engine fighter, with a number of reports indicating that the WS-15 could rival it in power.





Although Chinese military aviation has come to lead the world in a number of areas, its engine technology is still remain behind with the American F119 and F135 and Russian AL-41 all still outperforming any existing Chinese designs. The WS-15 program appears intended to leapfrog these older engines and place China on par with if not ahead of the world leaders. The recent transition to allow J-10 single engine fighters to use indigenous WS-10 engines was a major indicator of their growing perceived reliability, as single engine fighters lack engine redundancy meaning if the WS-10 failed during flight the aircraft would certainly be destroyed. The J-20 itself previously used Russian AL-31 engines developed for the Su-34 strike fighter as a stopgap until the WS-10’s design had been further refined, although the Russian design is still marginally more powerful. Integration of the WS-15 is expected to belatedly allow the J-20 to fly supersonically for sustained periods without using afterburners, providing a capability known as ‘supercruise’ which has been a key requirement for several 21st century fighter programs.





With new variants of the J-20 integrating thrust vectoring engines for greater low speed manoeuvrability, the WS-15’s increased thrust will further improve this and also facilitate greater high speed manoeuvrability, as well as potentially powering new more formidable sensors. It remains to be seen what other fighters the WS-15 could eventually power, with some speculation that an upcoming fifth generation single engine fighter aimed at export markets could use the same powerplant. The J-20 is one of just two fifth generation fighters fielded at squadron level strength and in production anywhere in the world today alongside the American F-35, although other fifth generation fighter designs including a naval fighter derived from the FC-31 program have been pursued in China. While Chinese combat aviation is considered a fully peer competitor to the United States in terms of avionics, missiles and to some extent even stealth technologies, bridging the gap in engine technologies would be a major step towards complete parity and eventually possibly primacy in the field.
 

MiG-29SMT

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J-20 Begins Flying With Groundbreaking WS-15 Engine: Will China’s Stealth Fighter be the World Leader in Thrust?

January-15th-2022

J-20 Stealth Fighter

J-20 Stealth Fighter

The first image is allegedly showing a Chinese J-20 fifth-generation fighter flight testing the long-awaited WS-15 engine have been released, following multiple indications that the new engine is set to enter service by 2025. The WS-15 was previously tested on a number of larger non-combat airframes, and its integration onto a fighter indicates it has reached an advanced stage of development. As is typical for initial tests the fighter used one WS-15 and one older WS-10 engine, as the reliability of the new engine remains uncertain so flying it with an older one provides engine redundancy and allows the fighter to land on the power of the WS-10 if needed. Designed by the Shenyang Aeroengine Research Institute, the WS-15 is to be manufactured by the Xian Aeroengine Corporation and is expected to have greater fuel efficiency and far greater power than its predecessor, providing the J-20 with a much greater endurance and superior flight performance. The engine is expected to make the J-20 the world's leader among fighters and interceptors in terms of thrust output, at least until the first sixth generation fighters enter service, meaning the engine will have a greater thrust and any other used by a twin-engine fighter. It's closest competitors are the upcoming Saturn 30 to be used by the Russian Su-57 and possibly the Su-34 fighters, the D-30 used by the MiG-31, and the F119 used by the American F-22.. The most powerful fighter engine and service worldwide today is the F135 which powers the American F-35 single engine fighter, with a number of reports indicating that the WS-15 could rival it in power.





Although Chinese military aviation has come to lead the world in a number of areas, its engine technology is still remain behind with the American F119 and F135 and Russian AL-41 all still outperforming any existing Chinese designs. The WS-15 program appears intended to leapfrog these older engines and place China on par with if not ahead of the world leaders. The recent transition to allow J-10 single engine fighters to use indigenous WS-10 engines was a major indicator of their growing perceived reliability, as single engine fighters lack engine redundancy meaning if the WS-10 failed during flight the aircraft would certainly be destroyed. The J-20 itself previously used Russian AL-31 engines developed for the Su-34 strike fighter as a stopgap until the WS-10’s design had been further refined, although the Russian design is still marginally more powerful. Integration of the WS-15 is expected to belatedly allow the J-20 to fly supersonically for sustained periods without using afterburners, providing a capability known as ‘supercruise’ which has been a key requirement for several 21st century fighter programs.





With new variants of the J-20 integrating thrust vectoring engines for greater low speed manoeuvrability, the WS-15’s increased thrust will further improve this and also facilitate greater high speed manoeuvrability, as well as potentially powering new more formidable sensors. It remains to be seen what other fighters the WS-15 could eventually power, with some speculation that an upcoming fifth generation single engine fighter aimed at export markets could use the same powerplant. The J-20 is one of just two fifth generation fighters fielded at squadron level strength and in production anywhere in the world today alongside the American F-35, although other fifth generation fighter designs including a naval fighter derived from the FC-31 program have been pursued in China. While Chinese combat aviation is considered a fully peer competitor to the United States in terms of avionics, missiles and to some extent even stealth technologies, bridging the gap in engine technologies would be a major step towards complete parity and eventually possibly primacy in the field.
that is no official statement and it is an opinion based article.

1643970540623.png

1643970663153.png

1643970780547.png



here is Su-57 operational, but propaganda claims it went from Al-31 to WS-10 and automatically to WS-15
 

SexyChineseLady

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WS-10C on J-20:
18E7D7EA-DF7B-4C3E-9E15-3DA6B4493863.jpeg

F77FFA37-2498-477A-A903-00B7FBE5A200.jpeg

E9AFB28A-98C4-4B2A-BD7B-7D2E7C9DB9CF.jpeg


Used on all new single- and twin-seat production aircraft:
BC7A29E6-A970-4651-A1FF-AC5E22176972.jpeg

2D344EE8-19F6-4B02-BD21-F5CABAE8EC25.jpeg


Now there is a new engine! WS-10 TVC or WS-15? :D
5A77AA3F-70AC-4645-9C8F-2C927728204E.jpeg
 

MiG-29SMT

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WS-10C on J-20:
View attachment 135825
View attachment 135826
View attachment 135827

Used on all new single- and twin-seat production aircraft:
View attachment 135829
View attachment 135828

Now there is a new engine! WS-10 TVC or WS-15? :D
View attachment 135830
WS-15 or WS-10 let us see a few details.

What materials are all aircraft made of?

Carbon Aluminium, Titanium, boron, all aircraft use the same materials, the lightest is carbon, mostly used on aircraft surfaces, second most used is aluminium, and third most used are titanium and iron.

So J-20 can not use any other material lighter than carbon, thus empty weight is going to be around 18000kg to 21000kg range, so No 3D additive technology will make J-20 much lighter than what Americans are doing F-35, F-22 or the Russians Su-57.

Even though the engine doesn’t go to space quite yet, the GE9X is so wide at more than 11 feet in diameter, one of her father’s cars could easily drive through it. Thanks to 3D printing (also known as additive manufacturing) and other technologies, the engine is 10% more fuel-efficient than its predecessor, the GE90. GE developed the GE9X for Boeing’s new 777X wide-body jet, which made its maiden flight on Saturday.
https://www.ge.com/additive/stories...rought-3d-printing-inside-ge9x-worlds-largest


Now if J-20 weighs in the range of F-22 or Su-57, why needs an engine like F135?

Russia has 117 on Su-57 operational now, which gives excellent performance having lower thrust than F135 , in fact the jet is faster than F-35.

The answer is J-20 if indeed is lighter why needs and engine as F135?

DSI loses pressure recovery after Mach 1.5, thus F-35 is rated at Mach 1.6, will WS-15 be effective?
Answer most current turbofans work at speeds of subsonic speeds, the air has to be subsonic thus the intake slow down the air stream.

So if Su-57 has variable geometry intakes, means 117 retains 100 of its thrust at Mach 2 while WS-15 using a DSI intakes loses pressure recovery after Mach 1.6 so at Mach 2 already has lost 13% pressure recovery then the engine can not achieve 100% of its max thrust, it might achieve 85% at Mach 2.

WS-15 then reduces thrust, wasting more fuel and damaging more likely the engine.


Then why? does it need to be so power? is J-20 really light? unlikely its long S ducts add weight, its cross section is huge, the only logic is power a single engine fighter.

China has a single engine fighter? no at this moment like F-35.

can it use it on an attack aircraft, maybe but long range aircraft require more economical engines of higher bypass than jet fighter
 

MiG-29SMT

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WS-10C on J-20:
View attachment 135825
View attachment 135826
View attachment 135827

Used on all new single- and twin-seat production aircraft:
View attachment 135829
View attachment 135828

Now there is a new engine! WS-10 TVC or WS-15? :D
View attachment 135830
ITP from Spain, that has US and Spanish owners

ITP Aero designs and manufactures one of the key structures of the new UltraFan® engine demonstrator via 3D printing

10/19/2021

1644023291252.png



So unlike our Chinese Propaganda 3d technology is used by GE, Pratt and Whitney or even ITP in jet engine designs, consider then F-35 and most modern aircraft use it, there is no reason to think J-20 is very light nor think ITP is lagging behind Chinese jet engine.


About ITP Aero
Ninth largest aircraft engine and components company


So Chinese propaganda boast a lot but hides a lot


SEPTEMBER 14, 2021
By Iñaki Berenzon and Josué Molina

A company is being developed in Mexico that will manufacture aircraft parts with large-scale 3D printing. The goal is to ensure that, in a few years, aircraft models from brands such as Boeing, Bombardier or Airbus have parts manufactured through 100% Mexican capital additive manufacturing.

So if you think J-20 is the only aircraft with 3D well even in Mexico we build parts of aircraft with 3d technology
see
1644024255218.png


our suppliers are building parts for aircraft companies using 3d additive technology
 

MonaLazy

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that is no official statement and it is an opinion based article.
Yes that's exactly why it is hard to trust anything on this thread. Chinese dudes keep claiming progress based on speculative photographs, but there is nothing official about it at all, ever. No statement from the government as if they are ashamed or hiding something.

CJ1000A is coming!

Tweet has disappeared! Does that imply same fate for CJ1000A??
 

SexyChineseLady

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Tweet has disappeared! Does that imply same fate for CJ1000A??

No Chinese engine had ever failed to materialize since people started following Chinese mil development on Twitter ;)

WS-10, WS-13, WS-17, WS-11 and WS-20 have all flown. With the WS-10, you are talking about multiple variants that have been mass produced which can be counted as separate engines because the WS-10B, WS-10C and the WS-10 TVC are all very different from the original WS-10.

You can check this thread here in the future for the WS-15 and WS-19! These engines not ready yet for mass production but there are documents stating that about five of each are built every year for testing so infrastructure is in place making them imminent.

The CJ1000A will be even less likely to disappear because it is a commercial engine tied to China's commercial jet, the C919, and it is prominently named and listed in the country's latest 5 Year Plan :)
 
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rockdog

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Yes that's exactly why it is hard to trust anything on this thread. Chinese dudes keep claiming progress based on speculative photographs, but there is nothing official about it at all, ever. No statement from the government as if they are ashamed or hiding something.



Tweet has disappeared! Does that imply same fate for CJ1000A??
If you follow this forum over 10 years. All the new weapon and components started from "Rumors", like J20, J31, H20, WS-10, WZ-10, Y20 ...

At the beginning, Indian members always denied and laughed at them, but few years later the reality made them accepted ...

Those threads are still existed, sometimes they are quite entertaining ...
 

SexyChineseLady

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If you follow this forum over 10 years. All the new weapon and components started from "Rumors", like J20, J31, H20, WS-10, WZ-10, Y20 ...

At the beginning, Indian members always denied and laughed at them, but few years later the reality made them accepted ...

Those threads are still existed, sometimes they are quite entertaining ...
Hardly any Chinese system once it is named fails to appear. In fact, I can't think of one.

There are so many threads on the aircraft but less on the engines. Now because one of the main attacks on the J-20 is it is missing the intended engine, everyone knows about WS-15!

Also WS-19 is now more well-known because of the J-35.

This thread will remind some people about five years from now when they become ubiquitous ;)
 

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