Exciting Times for Chinese Aircraft Engines!

[HariPrasad-1]

I don't how the scenarios were set up. I don't know what they were trying to train or showcase. I don't know the true classified capabilities of military systems.
I do know that Indians and Russians have been proven to be able to effectively use the same weapons that Arabs have been proven to be unable to effectively use.

that old saying, "It is a poor craftsman who blames his tool." I am blaming the craftsman (who is in this case the pilot or tanker).

Here Chinese used Chinese planes and lost. Parheps Chinese planes need Indian pilots to succeed.

 

[MonaLazy]

I was reading on Wikipedia. It says, "The WS-10 is derived from the CFM56 with the experience gained from the Woshan WS-6 turbofan project, which was abandoned at the start of the 1980s."

Doesn't that mean that the WS-10 engine design IS, or IS equivalent to, a Western engine? That all subsequent WS engine designs are likely also Western or equivalent to Western engines?

Why would the WS series be unreliable? Why is it compared to Russian engines?

CFM is a French-American company- why would they part with turbofan knowledge? Besides, the jump from civilian turbofan to military turbojet is pretty steep.

Secondly, China has been blocked off from access to Western tech since Tiananmen- Western engines are physically beyond their reach. So how can they match or exceed something they can't even assess in a lab etc?

 

[KurtisBrian]

CFM is a French-American company- why would they part with turbofan knowledge? Besides, the jump from civilian turbofan to military turbojet is pretty steep.

Secondly, China has been blocked off from access to Western tech since Tiananmen- Western engines are physically beyond their reach. So how can they match or exceed something they can't even assess in a lab etc?

I was a kind of asking SCLY. I don't know. Perhaps....
Money? A HUGE market of a type of people proven to be industrious, business savy and eager for an advanced technology driven society....proven in Japan then SK.
Or people trained in the "West" who then moved back to the "East"? Isn't that sort of how Pakistan got the bomb?
Japan hired skilled egg heads from the "West" to do it's big leap long ago. Maybe something like that.

 

[MonaLazy]

As early as 2007, China had 3.4 million media outlets, including more than 4000 TV stations, 2000 radio stations, 2000 newspapers, approximately 10,000 periodicals and magazines and 3.31 million websites.

& 0 articles critical of CCP or Emperor Xi.

What does that tell you about the kind of society China is?

Money? A HUGE market of a type of people proven to be industrious, business savy and eager for an advanced technology driven society....proven in Japan then SK.

Jet engine tech is too precious to be shared for money. Why create a competitor when you have a captive customer?

Or people trained in the "West" who then moved back to the "East"? Isn't that sort of how Pakistan got the bomb?

Pakis got the bomb by "eating grass". Discovering clandestine nuclear networks is where these Pakistani expats contributed most. Excerpted from Eating Grass - The Making of the Pakistani Bomb by Feroz Hassan Khan..

As for the Chinese jet engine effort, here is a more humbling assessment:

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China is throwing money at it, but that isn't taking it too far.

 

[MonaLazy]

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Quoting from above..

This is the key take away..

.. all this is not to say the Chinese or Indians won't get there. But it should take some time.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The J-16 uses the WS-10B engine. It is continuously testing the air routes around Japan and Taiwan. This goes on for practically every day and every year. You are telling me that Chinese engines are not reliable

In our new year of 2022!

In 2021:

 

[MonaLazy]

The J-16 uses the WS-10B engine. It is continuously testing the air routes around Japan and Taiwan. This goes on for practically every day and every year. You are telling me that Chinese engines are not reliable

You are telling me China has only one J-16?

 

[ym888]

CFM is a French-American company- why would they part with turbofan knowledge? Besides, the jump from civilian turbofan to military turbojet is pretty steep.

Secondly, China has been blocked off from access to Western tech since Tiananmen- Western engines are physically beyond their reach. So how can they match or exceed something they can't even assess in a lab etc?

In the 1980s, China had good relations with western countries. During this period, China introduced some Western weapons and technology.

It licensed CFM56, a civil aircraft engine.

It took the Chinese over 30 years to go from CFM56 to WS15.

There is no pie falling from the sky

 

[MonaLazy]

It licensed CFM56, a civil aircraft engine.

Again, why would the French-American company create a competitor, when all their customers are captive?

Also please provide a credible link for your claim where it clearly states China has been given full transfer of tech to manufacture CFM56 otherwise I will have to file your assertion under the library of bullcr@p.

Here's something I could find:

GE Aviation's Presence in China Continues to Grow | GE Aerospace News

ZHUHAI, China -- GE Aviation continues to increase its presence in China, with close to 2,000 GE and CFM56* engines now in service. An additional 1,000 GE and CFM engines are on order. "GE Aviation has seen significant increases in engine orders in the region over the last five years to support...

www.geaviation.com

CFM maintains strong commitment to China - CFM International

www.cfmaeroengines.com

.. which is a lot of words but essentially saying China is a big customer to us and nothing more.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

WS-10C engine of the J-20A! The third production batch which incorporated the WS-10C has at least 56 planes!

 

[ym888]

Again, why would the French-American company create a competitor, when all their customers are captive?

Also please provide a credible link for your claim where it clearly states China has been given full transfer of tech to manufacture CFM56 otherwise I will have to file your assertion under the library of bullcr@p.

Here's something I could find:

GE Aviation's Presence in China Continues to Grow | GE Aerospace News

ZHUHAI, China -- GE Aviation continues to increase its presence in China, with close to 2,000 GE and CFM56* engines now in service. An additional 1,000 GE and CFM engines are on order. "GE Aviation has seen significant increases in engine orders in the region over the last five years to support...

www.geaviation.com

CFM maintains strong commitment to China - CFM International

www.cfmaeroengines.com

.. which is a lot of words but essentially saying China is a big customer to us and nothing more.

Sorry, I fix my post. China did not receive the full technology transfer of cfM56. The Chinese factory produced the BLADES of the CFM56 and imported French technology and equipment, but nothing more.

China's military engine technology comes from a complex mix of sources, including research and imitation of American and Russian engines and, more importantly, the efforts of Chinese engineers.



Best compliments to Chinese engineers.

 

[KurtisBrian]

Sorry, I fix my post. China did not receive the full technology transfer of cfM56. The Chinese factory produced the BLADES of the CFM56 and imported French technology and equipment, but nothing more.

China's military engine technology comes from a complex mix of sources, including research and imitation of American and Russian engines and, more importantly, the efforts of Chinese engineers.



Best compliments to Chinese engineers.

Good post. What we believe or what information is/is not available to us is unimportant. He who becomes Emperor, God-King, will decide who is guilty, who he dislikes/hates, and how terrible their punishment. His beliefs will matter.

 

[MonaLazy]

Best compliments to Chinese engineers.

Best to the Indian scientists too! It's a race both countries could benefit from.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Evolution of the FC-1/J-35 and engine!

FC-1 V1 -- RD93:

FC-1 V2 (early) -- WS-13:

FC-1 V2 (late) -- WS-13E:

J-35 (interim) -- WS-13E:

J-35 (intended) -- WS-19:

 

[jadoogar]

If you are talking specifically of pharma APIs then China did not win on quality but cost. Simple!

View attachment 133054

Despite labour being cheaper in India- the other raw material, utilities, logsitics and financing are cheaper in China- undercutting India because of systemic efficiencies.

India’s road to freedom from Chinese API dependence

India’s road to freedom from Chinese API dependence

www.praxisga.com

Before the advent of cheap Chinese APIs, India used to manufacture it mostly in house, and there is a recovery plan in place:
View attachment 133057


Besides competing for APIs with Chinese, Indian pharma industry responded and climbed the value chain to become one of the top global manufacturers of formulation drugs:
View attachment 133056

India Plans to Revive Dormant API Manufacturing Industry, Cut Over Dependence on China - News18

The Indian pharmaceutical industry and Chinese API manufacturers have been fighting a very long war, and India was losing its API manufacturing industry to China.

www.news18.com

China does not invent, it only builds & builds to a cost less than anywhere else in the world by bringing cost efficiency and kills off competition. That's why the other posters are right when they say low cost is your only weapon. Can you point out one product that is available outside China for lower and yet the world is flocking to buy it more expensive from China? I can give you the example of France & Rafale that multiple countries are queuing up to buy despite say J-10 from China being cheaper.



Not taking the hard work away from the Chinese, but it is largely because of no other options as the world closed its doors to high tech for China post Tiananmen massacre. The fact that you cannot openly collaborate with the world on military programs (jet engines included) is a mess of your own making.

Especially on jet engines, you can keep counting as many WS-xx as you want but if the engine's life is merely a few hundred hours then you may as well call your planes as pilot killing machines.

Yes - all APIs (including antibiotics) used to be made in India. However PRC put the Indian manufacturers out of business by predatory pricing. Then they started raising prices. Actively aided in this by "western" financial interests that kept pumping trillions of Foreign Currency into PRC ... which they used to subsidize exports when needed. So unless that stops they could just lower prices again to drive new manufacturers out of business ??? & the cycle repeats.

Synthetic API manufacture is a very environmentally toxic business. So it is good that the GOI is setting up these parks/clusters where waste disposal infrastructure etc can be shared.

 

[no smoking]

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Quoting from above..

View attachment 133145

Using the performance of the engine in its earliest testing stage doesn't prove anything. Every country had faced the similar issue in her first turbofan engine project.

View attachment 133146

In this world, no one develop the jet engine from scratch except UK and German. All the other countries did reverse-engineering more or less in their early stage.

US and France got consent from their allies, so it called "consultancy".
Soviet and China didn't, that why we call it "Reverse-engineering".

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Using the performance of the engine in its earliest testing stage doesn't prove anything. Every country had faced the similar issue in her first turbofan engine project.



In this world, no one develop the jet engine from scratch except UK and German. All the other countries did reverse-engineering more or less in their early stage.

US and France got consent from their allies, so it called "consultancy".
Soviet and China didn't, that why we call it "Reverse-engineering".

Yes. The number of nations with with mass produced jet engines powering their fighters is five. And that five is the P5 of the UN

1) US
2) UK
3) France
4) Russia
5) China

There is no one else.

And UK and France are really just building one one current medium engine each right now -- EJ2000 and M88.

China has both heavy and medium in the WS-10 and WS-13 (just set up in 2021!) and one of each in development that are very close to delivery.

You can't be in a more exclusive club than that. The moment you build a production for a fighter's engine you are already ahead of the other 200 nations in the world.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Trainer engines! Uprated versions especially for new light attack variants of the JL-8 and JL-10 trainers.

WS-11 is a 17kN, non-afterburning, engine for the JL-8 (K-8.) The new K-8NG will have attack capabilities.

The JL-9 still uses a turbojet! It is the WP-13F with 65kN in afterburner. This is a supersonic trainer based on the J-7. There is an attack variant called the FTC2000 sold overseas.

The JL-10 is currently using a non-afterburner AI-222-25 from Ukraine. The ultimate engine would be the WS-17 which was already tested on a L-15 prototype. The L-15 family would include attack and also a carrier trainer.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

China is still making turbojets! Mainly for the JL-8 and the J-8II variants still used as recon craft and interceptors. J-8s are Mach 2+ machines.

Turbojets have short lives compared to turbofans but they can go high speed!

China is reported to be still building the WP-13 (WP-13BII is the fastest variant and used on most of the remaining J-8s) and the WP-14 (WP-14C is lastest and fastest) which is supposed to allow legacy J-7 and J-8 fighters one more upgrade.

WP-14C is supposed to be nearly 80kN and can push the JZ-8F (recon) to over M2.6.

The WP-14 was designed and introduced very late in 2009 when everyone else stopped putting new turbojet models into service for fighters!


J-7G with WP-14 in 2009:

JZ-8 recons with WP-13BII or WP-14:

WP-14 Kunlun:

 

[SexyChineseLady]

PLAAF in campaign to wear out Japanese fighters

This is a strategy of pure attrition created by immensely high flight volumes. The Chinese aircraft involved are mostly J-16s and J-11Bs powered by WS-10s. The Japanese aircraft involved in response are J-15Js with F100s.

While US and Canadian aircraft do about seven intercepts a year, the Japanese must do nearly a thousand!

This is intended to wear down the Japanese air force so they simply accept Chinese aircraft going through certain areas claimed by both nations.

China is betting its fighters can simply overwhelm the Japanese and their fighters with the numbers of flights.

While this campaign offers very good training for PLAAF pilots, it is a real life endurance contest between the logistics and maintenance ability of China and Japan. The wear and tear is real for both air forces -- it cannot be run if the engines of the Chinese planes were inferior

Japan's air force faces a 'relentless' burden, imposed by China

Japanese fighter pilot Lt. Col. Takamichi Shirota says his country is under increasing pressure from the air. Analysts say it's a pressure faced by few other nations.

amp.cnn.com

Japan's air force faces a 'relentless' burden, imposed by China
By Brad Lendon and Yoko Wakatsuki, CNN
Updated 12:08 AM EDT, Wed July 29, 2020

...

The air forces of the 27 European members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) combined flew fewer than half the intercepts last year than Japan did.

"I can tell you that over the 12 months period of 2019, NATO jets took to the skies approximately 430 times to intercept or visually identify unidentified aircraft that flew either in, close to, or towards NATO airspace," Lt. Col. Michael Wawrzyniak, chief public affairs officer for Allied Air Command in Germany, told CNN.

Across the Atlantic, US and Canadian fighters under command of NORAD, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, has averaged just seven intercepts a year

...

Analyst Peter Layton, a former Royal Australian Air Force pilot now with the Griffith Asia Institute, believes the pressure China puts on Japan by air is part of a larger plan.

"I think China wants to keep the JASDF off-balance and reactive, wear out its aircraft and air crew, gain training and keep the pressure up daily on who owns the disputed islands," Layton told CNN.

In a commentary last year written for The Interpreter blog from Australia's Lowy Institute, Layton detailed just how far the Chinese flights stretch the JASDF, and how China has the resources to push Japan to limits it may not be able to reach.

"
The JASDF's fleet of some 215 F-15J aircraft bears the brunt of scramble tasking," he wrote.

"Since 2016, the JASDF have often launched four aircraft for each scramble.

"These daily scrambles are gradually wearing the F-15J fleet out. The concern is that China has some six times more fighters then the JASDF, and could further ramp up intrusions whenever it considers appropriate. The in-service life of Japan's F-15J fleet is now almost a decision that lies with China," Layton said.