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Bhadra

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Super power in importing and back bitching own products



Proponents of an indigenous defence industrial base say fast-track imports are like a foot in the door and gradually expand into larger orders, diverting limited budgetary resources. The army is close to placing a second order of 72,000 battle rifles from US arms-maker SIG Sauer, after an identical purchase last year. Indian manufacturers who have invested in developing domestic capabilities to design and develop small arms are aghast. “FTPs strike the biggest blow to Indian industry.


When the armed forces go for foreign weapons, even small arms, you are effectively telling the world that your indigenous capacity is worthless. When we try and export, the first question we are asked is ‘why isn’t your own army buying your products’,” says the CEO of a private sector firm.


The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is worried that an order for a regiment (45 vehicles) of Russian 2SDS ‘Sprut’ light tanks for use in high-altitude terrains like Ladakh will kill its own under-the-wraps light tank project. The infantry wants more Israeli-built ‘Spike’ anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) even as the DRDO is readying an indigenous man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM) for the army.


A bulk of the current fast-track buys are for ammunition. The shortfalls, army officials say, have been caused by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), whose 41 factories have failed to keep the supply lines running. The OFB is part of the defence ministry’s Department of Defence Production.


A series of Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) reports have highlighted deficiencies in OFB-produced ammunition. A 2015 CAG report noted that 74 per cent of 170 types of ammunition failed to meet the ‘minimum acceptable risk level’ and only 10 per cent met the ‘war wastage reserve’ requirements. Another CAG audit for 2017-18 presented in Parliament in December 2019 said that the ordnance factories ‘had achieved production targets for only 49 per cent of the items’. A significant quantity of the army’s demand for principal ammunition items remained outstanding as on March 31, 2018, adversely impacting its operational preparedness, said the report. OFB exports, the report said, decreased by 39 per cent in 2017-18 over 2016-17. On May 16 this year, finance minister Nirmala Sitharaman announced that the government was corporatising the OFB to improve ‘autonomy, accountability and efficiency in ordnance supplies’. Corporatisation, though, could take several years to bear fruit. Attempts at private sector ammunition production have not taken off either, though not for want of capacity, capability or investments.

In June, the army’s Master General of Ordnance Branch inexplicably pulled the plug on a 2016 plan to procure ammunition from the private sector. A brainchild of then defence minister Manohar Parrikar, the plan had aimed to bring the private sector into what was until then a government monopoly. It studied the 2016 experience where ammunition deficiencies led to fast-track buys. The goal was not only import substitution but also to create a vast domestic ammunition manufacturing capacity that the armed forces could tap into in an emergency. Deliveries would commence from six months of signing of the contract and spread over 10 years.


Fifteen private sector firms had planned to bid for eight procurement contracts for specialised tank, anti-aircraft and infantry ammunition for the army’s vast Russian-origin arsenal of battle tanks, anti-aircraft guns, multiple grenade launchers and 155 mm artillery guns (see A Lost Opportunity). Some of the private players had even established plants and scouted for international partners, anticipating orders. Five requests for proposal (RFPs) for ammunition were withdrawn while no decision has been taken on proposals for BMCS (Bi Modular Charge System) and fuses. With the collapse of long-term capability building plans, short-term weapons acquisitions will continue to remain more attractive.
DRDO does not develop and make anything for infantry... the only Arm of Indian Army which remains constantly employed in operations and battles of various intensities..

What they require is rudimentary and small things like Rifles, Carbines, some smart fuzes, some good grenades. some good night sights and MPATGM... all things considered below their dignity and caliber by DODOs...

So kindly leave them apart.. it is only after 30 years that they are getting to import some rifles... a few emergency spikes.. may be a few carbines..

Make one and I would flood you you all with so much orders and the theory of Economy of Scale would fail..

It is absolutely correct for anyone to ask that if you can not make MPATGM why should they buy your astras or Dhruva helicopters.. or your guns.. the guys only seek refuge in never ending fancy projects..

By the way I was reading the views of one DODO working on ATGM that wire guided MACLOS missiles were the best for infantry and they should not ask for anything more.... such is callousness of the people there.. so if DODOs start deciding on what is a good rifle and start writing Army Doctrines then God only save us all..
 
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Bhadra

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View attachment 54398


Super power in importing and back bitching own products



Proponents of an indigenous defence industrial base say fast-track imports are like a foot in the door and gradually expand into larger orders, diverting limited budgetary resources. The army is close to placing a second order of 72,000 battle rifles from US arms-maker SIG Sauer, after an identical purchase last year. Indian manufacturers who have invested in developing domestic capabilities to design and develop small arms are aghast. “FTPs strike the biggest blow to Indian industry.


When the armed forces go for foreign weapons, even small arms, you are effectively telling the world that your indigenous capacity is worthless. When we try and export, the first question we are asked is ‘why isn’t your own army buying your products’,” says the CEO of a private sector firm.


The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is worried that an order for a regiment (45 vehicles) of Russian 2SDS ‘Sprut’ light tanks for use in high-altitude terrains like Ladakh will kill its own under-the-wraps light tank project. The infantry wants more Israeli-built ‘Spike’ anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) even as the DRDO is readying an indigenous man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM) for the army.


A bulk of the current fast-track buys are for ammunition. The shortfalls, army officials say, have been caused by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), whose 41 factories have failed to keep the supply lines running. The OFB is part of the defence ministry’s Department of Defence Production.


A series of Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) reports have highlighted deficiencies in OFB-produced ammunition. A 2015 CAG report noted that 74 per cent of 170 types of ammunition failed to meet the ‘minimum acceptable risk level’ and only 10 per cent met the ‘war wastage reserve’ requirements. Another CAG audit for 2017-18 presented in Parliament in December 2019 said that the ordnance factories ‘had achieved production targets for only 49 per cent of the items’. A significant quantity of the army’s demand for principal ammunition items remained outstanding as on March 31, 2018, adversely impacting its operational preparedness, said the report. OFB exports, the report said, decreased by 39 per cent in 2017-18 over 2016-17. On May 16 this year, finance minister Nirmala Sitharaman announced that the government was corporatising the OFB to improve ‘autonomy, accountability and efficiency in ordnance supplies’. Corporatisation, though, could take several years to bear fruit. Attempts at private sector ammunition production have not taken off either, though not for want of capacity, capability or investments.

In June, the army’s Master General of Ordnance Branch inexplicably pulled the plug on a 2016 plan to procure ammunition from the private sector. A brainchild of then defence minister Manohar Parrikar, the plan had aimed to bring the private sector into what was until then a government monopoly. It studied the 2016 experience where ammunition deficiencies led to fast-track buys. The goal was not only import substitution but also to create a vast domestic ammunition manufacturing capacity that the armed forces could tap into in an emergency. Deliveries would commence from six months of signing of the contract and spread over 10 years.


Fifteen private sector firms had planned to bid for eight procurement contracts for specialised tank, anti-aircraft and infantry ammunition for the army’s vast Russian-origin arsenal of battle tanks, anti-aircraft guns, multiple grenade launchers and 155 mm artillery guns (see A Lost Opportunity). Some of the private players had even established plants and scouted for international partners, anticipating orders. Five requests for proposal (RFPs) for ammunition were withdrawn while no decision has been taken on proposals for BMCS (Bi Modular Charge System) and fuses. With the collapse of long-term capability building plans, short-term weapons acquisitions will continue to remain more attractive.
Can China wait till DRDO / OFB will make those items... or India will fight only with Prithvi and Agni.. you do not seem to understand the mindset of DRDO bosses who consider it below their dignity to make a rifle..

You seems to suggest that China will attack only after DRDO / OFB are ready...
 

Bhadra

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In 2018, the DAC had approved 300 Nags and 12 NAMICAs but nothing got reported after then as if it's something shameful that needs to be hidden. If the same amound of Spikes would have been ordered, the chest thumbing and celebrations would have known no limits.
Only peanuts as compared to requirement of over 80000 MPATGM and thousand on Nag. That order would not suffice even for one Regt. Now they will order Helina (means new Nag) based on all weather MMW seekers for ground role if DRDO provides them means of controlling a battle space of 7km.. and a minimum range of 50m.

I feel 7 km range is uncalled for the ground launched missile.. MMW seeker is a must to overcome dust and smoke...
 

Ajax01

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Can China wait till DRDO / OFB will make those items... or India will fight only with Prithvi and Agni.. you do not seem to understand the mindset of DRDO bosses who consider it below their dignity to make a rifle..

You seems to suggest that China will attack only after DRDO / OFB are ready...
China has created a local industry to support it in war while our import army has done nothing. While you troll day and night that DRDO is delaying it fact remains many of these systems are in user trials ( that is trials by the Army and will forever remain so ). After all who will provide our generals with kickback money ? A indigenous MIC in its infancy or huge internatinal arms companies?
 

Bhadra

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China has created a local industry to support it in war while our import army has done nothing. While you troll day and night that DRDO is delaying it fact remains many of these systems are in user trials ( that is trials by the Army and will forever remain so ). After all who will provide our generals with kickback money ? A indigenous MIC in its infancy or huge internatinal arms companies?
I think that stage will soon be there when Armed Forces will start doing things on their own.. Indian Navy is well off in this regard. IA and IAF will soon start it.. What has DODOs given in last sixty years .... Dhoka ..Dhoka.. bus Dhoka..
 

noobmaster69

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Only peanuts as compared to requirement of over 80000 MPATGM and thousand on Nag. That order would not suffice even for one Regt. Now they will order Helina (means new Nag) based on all weather MMW seekers for ground role if DRDO provides them means of controlling a battle space of 7km.. and a minimum range of 50m.

I feel 7 km range is uncalled for the ground launched missile.. MMW seeker is a must to overcome dust and smoke...
Well you gotta start somewhere... Else the excuse of things not even being in production will be thrown around to import stuff in high tense situations like these.
 

Bhadra

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The bine burier is a drdo development and a recent product at that .

This one most probably , this was fitted behind ( towed behind ) a vehicle as mentioned in the article.

View attachment 54379
Not at all a DRDO product.. exist in IA Engineers unit for so many years...

Though not a very efficient instrument in terms of spacing...
 

noobmaster69

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I think that stage will soon be there when Armed Forces will start doing things on their own.. Indian Navy is well off in this regard. IA and IAF will soon start it.. What has DODOs given in last sixty years .... Dhoka ..Dhoka.. bus Dhoka..
And changing the requirements just before an indigenous defence equipment, which was developed with very little funds because most of the money flows outside, is about to clear loooooooong exhaustive trials is not dhokha?
 

BangaliBabu

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From the geological perspective, the tunnel has been deemed as safe and stable as it has been caved through 250 to 500 million-years-old proterozoic rocks which are known to have high bearing capacities.
200-300 million year old rocks are no Proterozoic rocks. Proterozoic rocks are 545 MY to 2500 MY old (million years - MY). And Aravalli hills are Archean to Mid-Proterozoic (~900 MY to >>2500 MY). Which means, Aravallis start from Archean age, which is 10 times older than the 200-300 mil. yr. figure.

I'm sorry to say, but journalism sure is today yellow journalism. Distorting facts is criminal, but stating WRONG facts is murder of truth, however innocuous it might be. :mad2:
 

Karthi

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Can China wait till DRDO / OFB will make those items... or India will fight only with Prithvi and Agni.. you do not seem to understand the mindset of DRDO bosses who consider it below their dignity to make a rifle..

You seems to suggest that China will attack only after DRDO / OFB are ready...

Some private Firms developed it , atleast we need to help them. I don't know what was the role MOD and GOVT , why they didn't ask for Developing these things .

It's the attitude of entire Indians , when I criticize military and DRDO people turn against me . When I say China has guns and we only have swords we need to upgrade our Weapons people start to lecture me about how great is a sword , and gun can't be useful without bullets . Even DFI us turned into Fanboys place(not everyone)
 

Karthi

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This Ashok Leyland 4×4 LSV Military Vehicle is Perfect to Take on the Worst Terrains and Weather Conditions.

Military vehicles have always been a fascination for auto enthusiasts around the world. The Indian Army has a few of the most stunning vehicles in their fleet that we can only dream. Out of all the providers for the Indian Arm, Ashok Leyland tops the list. The company’s arsenal of defence vehicles has impressive offerings including tracked vehicles, 6x6s, 8x8s, basic trucks to small 4×4 LCVs.

One such iteration is what you see above. What you see in the picture is the Ashok Leyland 4×4 LSV, which is a light, specialist, troop mobility vehicle developed to operate in difficult terrains and adverse weather conditions. An armoured vehicle is fitted with an H6 engine that is mated to a 5-speed gearbox and a 2-speed unit for accessories. It rides on independently suspended axles which are integrated with an electronically-controlled air suspension system. The same allows adjustment of ride height which can be decided according to the terrain beneath. Braking duties on the truck are handled by a hydraulic system that is governed by ABS.

There is also STANAG protection on all four sides as well. The vehicle is built upon a sturdy space frame chassis that can support a platform of up to 8 tonnes. It can carry a payload of 1 tonne and 5 occupants inside the cabin in addition to the same. A few of the most notable features of the car include a central tyre inflation system, a large protective plate under the cabin to protect the cabin from debris and perhaps deflect ammo. There’s also a winch up front which can pull some heavy stuff. Optional elements on the car come in the form of a water tank, a rearview camera, a 360-degree rotatable gunners station with viewport & gun mount, provision for a weapons station, additional jerry cans, an antenna mount and a searchlight on the roof which can either be motorized or manually operated.
 

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DRDO- L&T team might develop K-9 Chassis based Light Battle Tank.

The PLA’s aggressive deployment in eastern Ladakh and its potential of quickly escalating into a full-blown conflict has seen the Indian army going in for fast track purchases to meet equipment shortfalls. On the list is a requirement for up to 300 air-transportable light tanks. There is a debate underway within the government — a section of the establishment favours imports, another wants the light tanks to be built indigenously.

Top candidates for fast track imports include Russia’s 18-ton Sprut light tank. The Sprut’s 125 mm main gun, derived from Russian MBTs, means commonality of ammunition with the army’s existing T-90 and T-72 tanks. The Russian side indicates that the first 20 tanks could be made available in a few months. The indigenous alternative is a DRDO- L&T team up for a 35-ton tank based on the army’s in-service K9 ‘Vajra’ 155 mm self-propelled howitzer.

The 100th unit of the Vajra, based on the Hanwha Techwin K-9, is to be delivered to the army this December. It was part of a Rs 4,500 crore contract signed in 2017 with all guns built indigenously by L&T at its Hazira plant. Discussions over the last two years have picked up speed. The project aims to field the first three tank prototypes in 18 months at a project cost of under Rs 200 crore.

The DRDO design swaps the K9’s 155/52 mm howitzer with a modular turret and 105 mm gun made by Belgian firm John Cockerel Defence SA. The gun can fire at a 42-degree elevation, suited for mountain warfare. L&T’s highly automated production line set to be idle by the year-end can churn these tanks at a rate of nearly 100 tanks a year. The K9 light tank’s 1000 Horse Power engine will give it a power-to-weight ratio of 28 HP/ tonne.

What might finally happen — as CDS General Bipin Rawat has indicated in the past — is a balance between desi and videshi. The Army might end up importing a regiment of tanks (45 vehicles) and opt for indigenous tanks to make up the numbers.
 

Bhadra

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200-300 million year old rocks are no Proterozoic rocks. Proterozoic rocks are 545 MY to 2500 MY old (million years - MY). And Aravalli hills are Archean to Mid-Proterozoic (~900 MY to >>2500 MY). Which means, Aravallis start from Archean age, which is 10 times older than the 200-300 mil. yr. figure.

I'm sorry to say, but journalism sure is today yellow journalism. Distorting facts is criminal, but stating WRONG facts is murder of truth, however innocuous it might be. :mad2:
Are you a Geo physicist or geologist ??
 

Bhadra

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DRDO- L&T team might develop K-9 Chassis based Light Battle Tank.

The PLA’s aggressive deployment in eastern Ladakh and its potential of quickly escalating into a full-blown conflict has seen the Indian army going in for fast track purchases to meet equipment shortfalls. On the list is a requirement for up to 300 air-transportable light tanks. There is a debate underway within the government — a section of the establishment favours imports, another wants the light tanks to be built indigenously.

Top candidates for fast track imports include Russia’s 18-ton Sprut light tank. The Sprut’s 125 mm main gun, derived from Russian MBTs, means commonality of ammunition with the army’s existing T-90 and T-72 tanks. The Russian side indicates that the first 20 tanks could be made available in a few months. The indigenous alternative is a DRDO- L&T team up for a 35-ton tank based on the army’s in-service K9 ‘Vajra’ 155 mm self-propelled howitzer.

The 100th unit of the Vajra, based on the Hanwha Techwin K-9, is to be delivered to the army this December. It was part of a Rs 4,500 crore contract signed in 2017 with all guns built indigenously by L&T at its Hazira plant. Discussions over the last two years have picked up speed. The project aims to field the first three tank prototypes in 18 months at a project cost of under Rs 200 crore.

The DRDO design swaps the K9’s 155/52 mm howitzer with a modular turret and 105 mm gun made by Belgian firm John Cockerel Defence SA. The gun can fire at a 42-degree elevation, suited for mountain warfare. L&T’s highly automated production line set to be idle by the year-end can churn these tanks at a rate of nearly 100 tanks a year. The K9 light tank’s 1000 Horse Power engine will give it a power-to-weight ratio of 28 HP/ tonne.

What might finally happen — as CDS General Bipin Rawat has indicated in the past — is a balance between desi and videshi. The Army might end up importing a regiment of tanks (45 vehicles) and opt for indigenous tanks to make up the numbers.
How will you turn 49 ton machine into 35 tons.. ?? You want to make those turretless tanks...
Can a 35 ton tank be air dropped ???
Can a 35 ton tank be amphibious for six hours....
 

ARVION

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How will you turn 49 ton machine into 35 tons.. ?? You want to make those turretless tanks...
Can a 35 ton tank be air dropped ???
Can a 35 ton tank be amphibious for six hours....
Bhadra ji you want your your light tank to do everything , well not everyone could be perfect as you @Bhadra Ji , as for amphibious operations , better to leve to the dedicated or specially made Amphibious Armed Vehicle's .
 

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X band AESA based Vivaldi configuration radar seeker.

It is an advanced technology , AESA based Vivaldi configuration allows to pack in twice the no of transmitters and receivers per TRM module yet within the constraints of SWaP requirements of other corresponding AESA / legacy technologies .

In addition to other advantages it allows for large increase in range compared to other corresponding AESA or legacy tech based radars.
 
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ARVION

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Bhadra does not say any thing without adequate reason and logic..

Bhai mere, the Russian Spurt is an air dropped. amphibious light tank which can swim in water for six hours and can also fire while in water.. basically developed for Russian Navy... Russian call it anti tank plateform..

Chinese T-15 tank though of 34 tons is basically amphibious tank developed for PLAN.. they call it light tank..

Korean light tank is basically an AFV... andcall it so.

In comparison to all those how can V9 which is 49 ton tank be light tank ??

Let us first decide if India wants a new tank of Light tank that can be used in Ladakh, can be airdropped, can e amphibious for neval operations...

What is wanted, baba... pahale batao.. ??? Batao....
For that @Bhadra ji se would require an platform like an WHaap or the FICV upgunned tank's . Or the best Vijayanta's that have been in storage's for almost 17 to 20 year's .
 

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