DRDO, PSU and Private Defence Sector News

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[Mr.Evil007]

Are you saying that helmets are never replaced? Old used helmets are being reused again and again? If helmets are replaced as uniforms after some years or for every new entrant, the helmets are likely already advanced. Using completely closed helmets are not suitable for Indian climate as the heat will cause one to become dizzy. Also, who said that soldiers don't have BPJs? Again, using them during low risk scenarios causes dehydration in the heatwave.

As for INSAS, unless you are a dalal with agenda, there is no problem with INSAS 1C. All optics are attached as per requirement. The electronic optics need batteries and can get damaged easily in rough use and hence soldiers don't use them when on patrol duties. It does not mean the optics are not available

1.Did you really just compare uniform with helmet wow iam shocked.
2.As if Indian Army is the only army that uses bpjs and helmets brother look the world outside stop living in this bubble of "muh India supa powaa" delusion.
3.Talking about INSAS i fired it myself couple of time and everytime it got jammed failure to feed, failure to eject the round and what not once i fired 5 rounds and it got stuck again fired some more and got stuck again whoever Army or paramilitary personnel you will ask they will tell you how sht INSAS is and how they loved the SLRs.
4.On optics you are entirely wrong and you probably have no idea how an optic works.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Oh watch our mq9 we are coming in hot with my flying Maruti 800 be scareddd

 

[Smoothbore125mm]

Oh watch our mq9 we are coming in hot with my flying Maruti 800 be scareddd

DRISTI 800 the original which the adani elbit stole the tech from

 

[Samej Jangir]

1.Did you really just compare uniform with helmet wow iam shocked.
2.As if Indian Army is the only army that uses bpjs and helmets brother look the world outside stop living in this bubble of "muh India supa powaa" delusion.
3.Talking about INSAS i fired it myself couple of time and everytime it got jammed failure to feed, failure to eject the round and what not once i fired 5 rounds and it got stuck again fired some more and got stuck again whoever Army or paramilitary personnel you will ask they will tell you how sht INSAS is and how they loved the SLRs.
4.On optics you are entirely wrong and you probably have no idea how an optic works.

What do you think? Stinky old, dented helmets will be used for decades? Are you serious?
As for INSAS, no gun jams after every 5 rounds. Either you got some dirty old gun or you are just making propagandas. Even the Pakistani KPK made guns don't jam like that. It is simply absurd to accuse INSAS that way.
I have perfect idea as to how optics work. I was speaking of thermals or other advanced optics. As for lens based optics, INSAS users hardly need then as they are not expected to fire over 500m with accuracy. There are snipers for that. Firing 5.56 rounds over long distance does not work

 

[Blood+]

It was inducted by army. The army keeps replacing its rifles after they are fired for certain rounds, used in intensive operations or after a period of time as older rifles tend to jam and pose a risk. These rifles are either stored for emergency use like war breaking out or given to central or state police forces.

So, as 1C was made, they were inducted in the regular replacement cycle

Nah, I'm quite certain the 1C was never inducted by the Army.

 

[Mr.Evil007]

What do you think? Stinky old, dented helmets will be used for decades? Are you serious?
As for INSAS, no gun jams after every 5 rounds. Either you got some dirty old gun or you are just making propagandas. Even the Pakistani KPK made guns don't jam like that. It is simply absurd to accuse INSAS that way.
I have perfect idea as to how optics work. I was speaking of thermals or other advanced optics. As for lens based optics, INSAS users hardly need then as they are not expected to fire over 500m with accuracy. There are snipers for that. Firing 5.56 rounds over long distance does not work

1.Yes stinky old helmet are being used as we speak the 1974 Model fibreglass helmets are still standard issue for our troops.
2.Thats totally dependent upon you if you want to believe it or not I fired in firing ranges where every is checked and serviced before used.
3.You will use Thermals on a battle rifle thermals and nvg’s are mainly for marksmen role.
4.For a Rifle like Ak 203 (7.62x39mm)you generally use 3x24 rifle scopes so that the soldier can actually use his rifle for precise striking rather than seeing through an iron sight and spray and pray technique.
5.It is recommended to use optics on 5.56 aswell but for a gun like ak 203 in which you use a heavier round recoil is enough to derail you from what you were aiming through the iron sights.
6.Never said INSAS needs an optics clearly mentioned ak 203 you know what I said KICK INSAS OUT OF THE SERVICE that’s what I said how many times have you fired an INSAS to come on a judgement that it doesn’t jam?
7.
INSAS shortcomings

During the 1999 Kargil conflict, INSAS rifles were used by the Indian troops.

They faced various problems like:-

• Frequently jammed due to cold weather caused grave problems in a firefight.
• Magazines cracking due to the cold.
• Brittle muzzle due to low temperatures.
• Oil sprays in the eye of the operator due to malfunctioning.
• Faulty mechanism which shifted the firing mode from 3 rounds burst to automatic fire.
• Was planned to be used for 10 years in 1980s, still in use.
• They can upgrade it and probably did too but “gadhe k upar boosters lgane se wo ghoda nhi ban jayega”.

 

[patriots]

1.Yes stinky old helmet are being used as we speak the 1974 Model fibreglass helmets are still standard issue for our troops.
2.Thats totally dependent upon you if you want to believe it or not I fired in firing ranges where every is checked and serviced before used.
3.You will use Thermals on a battle rifle thermals and nvg’s are mainly for marksmen role.
4.For a Rifle like Ak 203 (7.62x39mm)you generally use 3x24 rifle scopes so that the soldier can actually use his rifle for precise striking rather than seeing through an iron sight and spray and pray technique.
5.It is recommended to use optics on 5.56 aswell but for a gun like ak 203 in which you use a heavier round recoil is enough to derail you from what you were aiming through the iron sights.
6.Never said INSAS needs an optics clearly mentioned ak 203 you know what I said KICK INSAS OUT OF THE SERVICE that’s what I said how many times have you fired an INSAS to come on a judgement that it doesn’t jam?
7.
INSAS shortcomings

During the 1999 Kargil conflict, INSAS rifles were used by the Indian troops.

They faced various problems like:-

• Frequently jammed due to cold weather caused grave problems in a firefight.
• Magazines cracking due to the cold.
• Brittle muzzle due to low temperatures.
• Oil sprays in the eye of the operator due to malfunctioning.
• Faulty mechanism which shifted the firing mode from 3 rounds burst to automatic fire.
• Was planned to be used for 10 years in 1980s, still in use.
• They can upgrade it and probably did too but “gadhe k upar boosters lgane se wo ghoda nhi ban jayega”.

Many of the shortcomings you have mentioned in insas is already addressed.
New insas variants are good than the olders.
It's true that the army should replace insas , as now the battle is changed,people bpjs to stop even 7.62*51 rounds .
Still Indian army is reluctant to use Indian weapons.

1. Mku helmets , and tata bpjs first exported then inducted by army।
2. Atags already exported,not inducted yet.let alone marg
3. SSS defence snipers already exported,in trial for army.

In rifle part ।।।SSS defence is doing good work
First Indian paramilitary forces should induct Indian guns ।।।first in large numbers, indian police also using foreign guns for their special ops...this mentality should be changed

 

[Mr.Evil007]

Many of the shortcomings you have mentioned in insas is already addressed.
New insas variants are good than the olders.
It's true that the army should replace insas , as now the battle is changed,people bpjs to stop even 7.62*51 rounds .
Still Indian army is reluctant to use Indian weapons.

1. Mku helmets , and tata bpjs first exported then inducted by army।
2. Atags already exported,not inducted yet.let alone marg
3. SSS defence snipers already exported,in trial for army.

In rifle part ।।।SSS defence is doing good work
First Indian paramilitary forces should induct Indian guns ।।।first in large numbers, indian police also using foreign guns for their special ops...this mentality should be changed

That’s what iam trying to say everything has an age a lifespan you can’t keep using INSAS till 2040s upgrades can do much to a gun which has that much issues.

I actually want to know why is SSSDefence so ignored is their rifle not optimised or is not good like what’s the issue for it getting rejected?

 

[patriots]

That’s what iam trying to say everything has an age a lifespan you can’t keep using INSAS till 2040s upgrades can do much to a gun which has that much issues.

I actually want to know why is SSSDefence so ignored is their rifle not optimised or is not good like what’s the issue for it getting rejected?

It's in testing

 

[RDXChauhan]

Is this insas?

 

[Blood+]

View attachment 251641
Is this insas?

Yep, with FAB defence mods I think.

 

[Chinmoy]

kabhi kabhi lagta hai gun leke sabko uda du lekin woh bhi ofb ki hai hath mein hai phat jayagi

Don't boil your blood. By 2029 Mk2 would be undergoing user evaluation trials.

 

[Chinmoy]

But it is fashionable to shit on any imported platform so this will be treated as completely normal phenomenon.

LUH too faced same vibration issue.

 

[Samej Jangir]

1.Yes stinky old helmet are being used as we speak the 1974 Model fibreglass helmets are still standard issue for our troops.
2.Thats totally dependent upon you if you want to believe it or not I fired in firing ranges where every is checked and serviced before used.
3.You will use Thermals on a battle rifle thermals and nvg’s are mainly for marksmen role.
4.For a Rifle like Ak 203 (7.62x39mm)you generally use 3x24 rifle scopes so that the soldier can actually use his rifle for precise striking rather than seeing through an iron sight and spray and pray technique.
5.It is recommended to use optics on 5.56 aswell but for a gun like ak 203 in which you use a heavier round recoil is enough to derail you from what you were aiming through the iron sights.
6.Never said INSAS needs an optics clearly mentioned ak 203 you know what I said KICK INSAS OUT OF THE SERVICE that’s what I said how many times have you fired an INSAS to come on a judgement that it doesn’t jam?
7.
INSAS shortcomings

During the 1999 Kargil conflict, INSAS rifles were used by the Indian troops.

They faced various problems like:-

• Frequently jammed due to cold weather caused grave problems in a firefight.
• Magazines cracking due to the cold.
• Brittle muzzle due to low temperatures.
• Oil sprays in the eye of the operator due to malfunctioning.
• Faulty mechanism which shifted the firing mode from 3 rounds burst to automatic fire.
• Was planned to be used for 10 years in 1980s, still in use.
• They can upgrade it and probably did too but “gadhe k upar boosters lgane se wo ghoda nhi ban jayega”.

You are relentless in propaganda without any logic or reason. You just keep barking nonstop. This is the last reply I am giving you:
1. 1974 model does not mean made in 1970s. It is just the design. Don't you wear similar design underwear, shirt & pants that existed in 1970s? Does it make your clothes outdated? Ak47 designed in 1950s are still widely used. What is your problem with 1974 model helmets? Do you want "vibranium" helmets? Indian soldiers even use patkas a lot because it is much more comfortable when wearing for long hours. Merely using new designs mindlessly is like dressing up like Uurfi Javed and calling yourself modern
2&7. Only you should believe yourself. No one with a sane mind believes such utter nonsense. Most of the INSAS problems were old. INSAS were inducted in 1997 and problems arising in 1999 is not that surprising as new rifles will always have some problems. Making it a big issue is just propaganda.
3. You think soldiers don't get deployed for night duty? Do you want them to use simple optics while enemy hunts them down with thermals? Thermals can be used on any rifles. There is no restrictions.
4&5&6. Do you think optics have no weight and don't cause obstruction when wading through obstacles, forest etc? Soldiers are not visually impaired that they need optics all the time. Optics are provided but not always used. As for Ak203, it is not yet inducted in good quantity and you already are whining about optics? Give some time as new equipments always have teething problem.

 

[ezsasa]

i still see posts dissing screw driver giri on this thread, might as well take another shot at running it thru a scenario which threads the dots across multiple silos of thought processes.

so let's have an overview from 30,000 feet..

on the need for a private MIC (military industrial complex), we have a public sector MIC, it may not be comparable to the scale and depth of more mature western and northern MIC counterparts. but it fits the purpose limited by our defence doctrine. GoI does not have a expeditionary military doctrine, it has a defensive military doctrine to protect against an incoming threat to territorial sovereignty. the existing MIC is designed to cater to this doctrine. the requirements and purchases are defined by attempts to fulfil this defensive doctrine.

for a long period post kargil, the idea was that any war would not last more than a few weeks of intense fighting, it was about gaining upper hand before stalemate is forced by international powers. covid, galwan 2020 and ukraine war changed that, where it is becoming increasingly evident that multilateral bodies like UN have lost their capacity to enforce outcomes, and are useless when P5(five permanent members) themselves are directly involved, and one of our adversaries is part of P5 i.e china. so the pakistan oriented assumption of short swift intense war is no longer valid in current circumstances, so alternative solutions must be developed.

if the situation is demanding for MIC to prepare for long period of hostilities, supplies and spares are needed to sustain the front lines and the rear, which would mean augmentation of production capacity. choice is between expanding the capacity of current public sector MIC production with known inherent inefficiencies ( which is typical of organisations which are few decades old ), or build a parallel MIC. the current GoI is doing both, they are expanding existing capacity of public sector MIC and developing private sector MIC.

initially in 2015, involving private sector may have as a response to demands from the private industry, which monahar parrikar tried to solve. in later years as geo politcal situation evolved and circumstances presented themselves, it became an imperative to involve private sector in defence supply chain. but defence supply chain is typical of any specialised commercial supply chain, it is an engineering oriented supply chain and normal engineering supply chain rules apply i.e intellectual property, technology denial, engineering skill set, specialised skill sets, raw materials, factory setups. none of these can be built overnight in a span of few years.

so what does GoI and private sector do, leverage existing systems and try to use them in efficient manner, with priority being to fullfil the order backlog for the forces irrespective where the I.P comes from, at the same time developing domestic defence production capacity, with in the financial constraints of existing defence budget . while a section of private sector develops their own I.Ps, other private sector companies are willing to invest in manufacturing pipelines since some of them have already been part of the MIC supply chain as sub-system suppliers, they got upgraded to OEM category like TATAs, BF and EEL etc.. and there are those like adani, punj lloyd who had no prior experience in defence but want to have a piece of the cake.

the assumption that if some company wants to be an OEM but not R&D in their portfolio is a negative attribute may be misplaced idealism. there will be cases where some companies are good at R&D but don't have the acumen to run a commercial production line because let's not forget manufacturing in India is still a headache. these set of companies can leave the production headaches to OEM who specialise in production i.e screwdriver giri.

the industry itself is in a nascent stage, trends will evolve as long as defence doctrine supports it.

 

[shade]

.. and there are those like adani, punj lloyd who had no prior experience in defence but want to have a piece of the cake.

Ye sab theek hai but govt needs to ensure these companies actually end up producing most of what they sell, minimal foreign dependencies.
Tomorrow Israel can refuse to sell us the engine for that drone that Adani makes because Uncle Sam told them to.

 

[ezsasa]

Ye sab theek hai but govt needs to ensure these companies actually end up producing most of what they sell, minimal foreign dependencies.
Tomorrow Israel can refuse to sell us the engine for that drone that Adani makes because Uncle Sam told them to.

there can no answer that can be given on internet which assuages such anxieties, this is why this notion keeps floating for such a long time. there can be no logical answer because it is a nirvana fallacy, expectation is premised on asking for a commitment that nothing will go wrong in the future, which no one can give. at best anyone can say, is we can try our best to make sure that it doesn't happen.

there is no idealised solution here, the country will deal with situations as they present themselves. those who are empowered to deal with this, will deal with this.

that risk is ever present, even for israel. that's what diplomacy is for, and contingency planning done for these scenarios.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/report-in-first-us-delayed-an-ammunition-shipment-israel-us-supplies-are-continuing/

 

[jai jaganath]

i still see posts dissing screw driver giri on this thread, might as well take another shot at running it thru a scenario which threads the dots across multiple silos of thought processes.

so let's have an overview from 30,000 feet..

on the need for a private MIC (military industrial complex), we have a public sector MIC, it may not be comparable to the scale and depth of more mature western and northern MIC counterparts. but it fits the purpose limited by our defence doctrine. GoI does not have a expeditionary military doctrine, it has a defensive military doctrine to protect against an incoming threat to territorial sovereignty. the existing MIC is designed to cater to this doctrine. the requirements and purchases are defined by attempts to fulfil this defensive doctrine.

for a long period post kargil, the idea was that any war would not last more than a few weeks of intense fighting, it was about gaining upper hand before stalemate is forced by international powers. covid, galwan 2020 and ukraine war changed that, where it is becoming increasingly evident that multilateral bodies like UN have lost their capacity to enforce outcomes, and are useless when P5(five permanent members) themselves are directly involved, and one of our adversaries is part of P5 i.e china. so the pakistan oriented assumption of short swift intense war is no longer valid in current circumstances, so alternative solutions must be developed.

if the situation is demanding for MIC to prepare for long period of hostilities, supplies and spares are needed to sustain the front lines and the rear, which would mean augmentation of production capacity. choice is between expanding the capacity of current public sector MIC production with known inherent inefficiencies ( which is typical of organisations which are few decades old ), or build a parallel MIC. the current GoI is doing both, they are expanding existing capacity of public sector MIC and developing private sector MIC.

initially in 2015, involving private sector may have as a response to demands from the private industry, which monahar parrikar tried to solve. in later years as geo politcal situation evolved and circumstances presented themselves, it became an imperative to involve private sector in defence supply chain. but defence supply chain is typical of any specialised commercial supply chain, it is an engineering oriented supply chain and normal engineering supply chain rules apply i.e intellectual property, technology denial, engineering skill set, specialised skill sets, raw materials, factory setups. none of these can be built overnight in a span of few years.

so what does GoI and private sector do, leverage existing systems and try to use them in efficient manner, with priority being to fullfil the order backlog for the forces irrespective where the I.P comes from, at the same time developing domestic defence production capacity, with in the financial constraints of existing defence budget . while a section of private sector develops their own I.Ps, other private sector companies are willing to invest in manufacturing pipelines since some of them have already been part of the MIC supply chain as sub-system suppliers, they got upgraded to OEM category like TATAs, BF and EEL etc.. and there are those like adani, punj lloyd who had no prior experience in defence but want to have a piece of the cake.

the assumption that if some company wants to be an OEM but not R&D in their portfolio is a negative attribute may be misplaced idealism. there will be cases where some companies are good at R&D but don't have the acumen to run a commercial production line because let's not forget manufacturing in India is still a headache. these set of companies can leave the production headaches to OEM who specialise in production i.e screwdriver giri.

the industry itself is in a nascent stage, trends will evolve as long as defence doctrine supports it.

All well and good
But can we have a separate thread to speak about screwdriver products as it doesn't contribute to thread and also due to unavailability of such thread discussion takes place here and members do get triggered either for or against the motion

 

[ezsasa]

All well and good
But can we have a separate thread to speak about screwdriver products as it doesn't contribute to thread and also due to unavailability of such thread discussion takes place here and members do get triggered either for or against the motion

it's a non issue, it's an issue only for those who are either not applying their mind on this or deliberate black pillers.