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AnantS

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Don't you guys think Kalyani 105mm MGS is just proof of concept and not a fully military grade mature product. Its basically screwdrivergiri of mandus 105mm artillery. They could have atleast tried to engineer the concept on a vehicle like pcl-161 and pcl-171. Just compare these three vehicles and find out which one seems better.
View attachment 230324
View attachment 230325
and now compare these to this jugaad of kalyani mgs
View attachment 230326

So, where is the space for ammo and crew to operate the gun. And if anything to learn from Ukraine is that you atleast want your vehicle to be protected from shrapnels. This is just not good.

Only advantage of this vehicle is lightweight of 5.5tons but no space for gun crew and ammo. Otoh Chinese systems providers for both as well as basic Armor in total weight of some 11tons.
We haven't also got enough chinooks to lug around these kalayani mgs for air mobility ops too.

It may sadden some people but I surely don't want this half baked system in IA.

If only kalyani offers something like their other product View attachment 230328
chinese version isnt compact and lacks direct firing capability sideways due to obstruction. Both of them are imp esp in mountain warfare. you can always carry ammo separately in more quantities in separate vehicle.
 

Aniruddha Mulay

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Don't you guys think Kalyani 105mm MGS is just proof of concept and not a fully military grade mature product. Its basically screwdrivergiri of mandus 105mm artillery. They could have atleast tried to engineer the concept on a vehicle like pcl-161 and pcl-171. Just compare these three vehicles and find out which one seems better.
View attachment 230324
View attachment 230325
and now compare these to this jugaad of kalyani mgs
View attachment 230326

So, where is the space for ammo and crew to operate the gun. And if anything to learn from Ukraine is that you atleast want your vehicle to be protected from shrapnels. This is just not good.

Only advantage of this vehicle is lightweight of 5.5tons but no space for gun crew and ammo. Otoh Chinese systems providers for both as well as basic Armor in total weight of some 11tons.
We haven't also got enough chinooks to lug around these kalayani mgs for air mobility ops too.

It may sadden some people but I surely don't want this half baked system in IA.

If only kalyani offers something like their other product View attachment 230328
Even if it's a licensed product, it does not matter as long as Kalyani holds the IP.
The entire point of a 4x4 mounted 105mm/37 cal MGS is for the system to be ultra light and can literally go anywhere.
The entire 105mm MGS offered by Kalyani weighs less than 5.5 tons
 

NutCracker

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Don't you guys think Kalyani 105mm MGS is just proof of concept and not a fully military grade mature product. Its basically screwdrivergiri of mandus 105mm artillery. They could have atleast tried to engineer the concept on a vehicle like pcl-161 and pcl-171. Just compare these three vehicles and find out which one seems better.
View attachment 230324
View attachment 230325
and now compare these to this jugaad of kalyani mgs
View attachment 230326

So, where is the space for ammo and crew to operate the gun. And if anything to learn from Ukraine is that you atleast want your vehicle to be protected from shrapnels. This is just not good.

Only advantage of this vehicle is lightweight of 5.5tons but no space for gun crew and ammo. Otoh Chinese systems providers for both as well as basic Armor in total weight of some 11tons.
We haven't also got enough chinooks to lug around these kalayani mgs for air mobility ops too.

It may sadden some people but I surely don't want this half baked system in IA.

If only kalyani offers something like their other product View attachment 230328
How safe are those ammo canisters ? There can be downsides too of having ammo right at the back of crew.
 

Kuldeepm952

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Even if it's a licensed product, it does not matter as long as Kalyani holds the IP.
The entire point of a 4x4 mounted 105mm/37 cal MGS is for the system to be ultra light and can literally go anywhere.
The entire 105mm MGS offered by Kalyani weighs less than 5.5 tons
My point is what can kalyani do which pcl-171 can't. Go everywhere seems like just a buzzword. Anyway with kalyani system, you'll have a larger footprint due to another vehicle for carrying gun crew.
Engineering current towed 105mm into mobile like
1701156282613.png
seems to be much better and cost effective
 

Kuldeepm952

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T
How safe are those ammo canisters ? There can be downsides too of having ammo right at the back of crew.
Then the entire concept of a mounted gun system is flawed and all nations are in vain who own a mgs artillery. I believe those ammo canisters won't go boom with a little bit of rough ride atleast.
By the way our Mahindra armado mounted mortar also have ammo at back :yo:
 

AnantS

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My point is what can kalyani do which pcl-171 can't. Go everywhere seems like just a buzzword. Anyway with kalyani system, you'll have a larger footprint due to another vehicle for carrying gun crew.
Engineering current towed 105mm into mobile likeView attachment 230332 seems to be much better and cost effective
what can 6x6 do which 4x4 cant? You have taken too seriously english adage: Looks can kill.
 

Azaad

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what can 6x6 do which 4x4 cant? You have taken too seriously english adage: Looks can kill.
You guys are unnecessarily complicating a simple issue. The question to be asked is does the 105 mm Garuda MGS howitzer comply with the IA's PSQR?

If it didn't, we wouldn't see any forward movement or at any rate little forward movement on the matter like for instance how the IA is dragging its feet on the ATAGS on the grounds that it's overweight.

Hence every now & then we're ambushed with news of the ATHOS 155 mm howitzers sneaking in thru the back door
 

Kuldeepm952

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chinese version isnt compact and lacks direct firing capability sideways due to obstruction. Both of them are imp esp in mountain warfare. you can always carry ammo separately in more quantities in separate vehicle.
Just a tad bit correction, pcl 171 can direct fire
1701178078600.png

And so can pcl 161, both 122mm mounted artillery
1701178183448.png
 

Azaad

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In front of our eyes Indian industry is entering 3 sectors robustly ~
1) Electronics
2) Defense & aerospace
3) New Energy.

Just see the massive wave of small small startup kind of companies.
This ecosystem particularly the aerospace ecosystem should stand us in good stead when we develop our own ecosystem of civilian airliners beginning with the MTA hopefully , much like the Chinese have done absorbing tech thru such JVs & outsourcing to local cos.
 

AnantS

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raju1982

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What technology they absorved from Al-31FP? One of the best at that time. and Adour, RD-33M? They say same thing every 10 years for license manufacturing.

Need return based investments in private cos for such ToT. As Tata is making C295, they should be asked to make one of their own in next 10 years based on tech learning.

The main problem is MoD dont learn from history, it is just sarkari naukri for most.
 

Kuldeepm952

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What technology they absorved from Al-31FP? One of the best at that time. and Adour, RD-33M? They say same thing every 10 years for license manufacturing.

Need return based investments in private cos for such ToT. As Tata is making C295, they should be asked to make one of their own in next 10 years based on tech learning.

The main problem is MoD dont learn from history, it is just sarkari naukri for most.
Let's see how much of tech is absorbed by our private cos or will they be happy with screwdrivergiri only.
On the part of them making something of their own in next 10 yrs, yeah good luck.
 

raju1982

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Let's see how much of tech is absorbed by our private cos or will they be happy with screwdrivergiri only.
On the part of them making something of their own in next 10 yrs, yeah good luck.
Screwdrivergiri is in India's DNA. Tata for example makes everything sourced from outside in their SUVs for decades, now struggling to build a simple TGDi engine. TCS, Tata Communications, Tata Elxsi all so called tech companies are basically BPOs. They provide services and license manufacturing.

Tata may start selling chappal and jhadu next to their salt, tea, watch to cars to C295 airplanes but will never invest good money in basic research.

So Govt must force them to do so. Thats i meant.
 

ezsasa

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it's the nature of engineering innovations.

folks might have heard of agile and rolling wave
agile is used typically for software development, and rolling wave is used for engineering projects.

ultimately it boils down to how many IPs you own, and out of IPs you own how many can be combined to make a final product. in rolling wave, you can't move to the next step fully until previous step is completed.

take the example of nag missile(prospina), for many years user was not happy with the outcome (12-3 pm "restriction"), ultimately seeker break through came in 2019. and since then there have been a slew of short range missile with seekers from innovation stand point, production is a different story.

no choice but to keep at it, until the critical mass is reached on I.Ps, to reach a point where engineers can mix and match relevant I.Ps to cook up products that user has asked for.

mean while security forces can't sit idle, they will need to be supplied to fulfill their priorities, hence screwdriver giri. if their purchasing requirements are not fulfilled, it will only add to the existing procurement backlogs, and will become a headache later.

1701249056677.png


1701249083467.png


Let's see how much of tech is absorbed by our private cos or will they be happy with screwdrivergiri only.
On the part of them making something of their own in next 10 yrs, yeah good luck.
Screwdrivergiri is in India's DNA. Tata for example makes everything sourced from outside in their SUVs for decades, now struggling to build a simple TGDi engine. TCS, Tata Communications, Tata Elxsi all so called tech companies are basically BPOs. They provide services and license manufacturing.

Tata may start selling chappal and jhadu next to their salt, tea, watch to cars to C295 airplanes but will never invest good money in basic research.

So Govt must force them to do so. Thats i meant.
 

Chinmoy

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Don't you guys think Kalyani 105mm MGS is just proof of concept and not a fully military grade mature product. Its basically screwdrivergiri of mandus 105mm artillery. They could have atleast tried to engineer the concept on a vehicle like pcl-161 and pcl-171. Just compare these three vehicles and find out which one seems better.
View attachment 230324
View attachment 230325
and now compare these to this jugaad of kalyani mgs
View attachment 230326

So, where is the space for ammo and crew to operate the gun. And if anything to learn from Ukraine is that you atleast want your vehicle to be protected from shrapnels. This is just not good.

Only advantage of this vehicle is lightweight of 5.5tons but no space for gun crew and ammo. Otoh Chinese systems providers for both as well as basic Armor in total weight of some 11tons.
We haven't also got enough chinooks to lug around these kalayani mgs for air mobility ops too.

It may sadden some people but I surely don't want this half baked system in IA.

If only kalyani offers something like their other product View attachment 230328

I would rather prefer conversion of current towed 105mm to mobile solutions like
View attachment 230330
View attachment 230331

No need to waste money on half baked solutios like kalyani 105mm mgs which not bringing anything significant to the table.
I do agree whole heartedly over here with you. I personally believe Garuda system to be a half cooked design.

But if you would look at both the Garuda systems, both have tried to keep one thing common in design, weight. At 5.5 ton and with a 4 wheel vehicle, we can transfer 4 such systems in C17. But with the existing 105 MGS on 6*6, Globemaster could accommodate only 2. We have both 4*4 and 6*6 system of mounted 105 mm gun. But there is a reason why Kalyani has kept both their system as a half cooked measure design.

Personally I would have loved Sarang on TATA to take on PCL-161 and PCL-171. But it would not be a feasible system for us.
 

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