DRDO Multical Rifle Unveiled

[tharun]

People talking lot about caliber change is not that easy...simply it's PIA(Pain In Ass).
Reason if you want to change one caliber to another you need these things
1)Better guns and ammo
2)Infrastructure for making huge amount of ammo,because soldiers need alot of time and training for caliber change
3)And war wastage reserves.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

People talking lot about caliber change is not that easy...simply it's PIA(Pain In Ass).
Reason if you want to change one caliber to another you need these things
1)Better guns and ammo
2)Infrastructure for making huge amount of ammo,because soldiers need alot of time and training for caliber change
3)And war wastage reserves.

Whatever the points and counterpoints, opinions of keyboard warriors like us don't matter to the Armed Forces command HQ. Whatever they decide will go. And ammo should not be too hard to produce, just need different stamping and forming dies for the presses. But then again, this is OFB were talking about.

 

[devhensh]

Last year some info surfaced that OFB has designed a unlicensed copy of the MP5 called Anamika. TFB ran an article about it.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/06/16/of/

P.S. Don't read the comments.

News like these don't exactly paint a picture of HK being on good terms.

I know all about Anamika....i also know that it hasn't replaced MP5 anywhere...MP5s are still bought every year by lots of agencies in India......But again...if India wants to buy from Germany using FMS...it would be such a big deal that no company / organization can refuse it... But let's hope we don't need it, and our own Multical rifle is good enough..Lets finish this here.....

 

[tharun]

Whatever the points and counterpoints, opinions of keyboard warriors like us don't matter to the Armed Forces command HQ.

If you ask any senior defence analyst they too answer like this in general perspective.

And ammo should not be too hard to produce, just need different stamping and forming dies for the presses.

Not hard to produce wake up kid. you think that easy to produce ammo.
Bae systems invested 80+ million in new factory which produces only 1-1.5 million rounds a day.
Even largest ammunition manufacturer ATK produces only 1.5 billion(150 crore) rounds per year.
I you want to change caliber you need lot of ammo for training and stock for future war.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

If you ask any senior defence analyst they too answer like this in general perspective.

Not hard to produce wake up kid. you think that easy to produce ammo.
Bae systems invested 80+ million in new factory which produces only 1-1.5 million rounds a day.
Even largest ammunition manufacturer ATK produces only 1.5 billion(150 crore) rounds per year.
I you want to change caliber you need lot of ammo for training and stock for future war.

I didn't say it's cheap, just that it's not hard. Bullet cores are extruded lead wire, casings and jackets are stamped and extruded. All stages can be pipelined in a press machine. How much you have to invest for it is a different matter.

IA logistics corps already has to maintain stocks of 5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 7.62x54r etc, so 6.8 is the only new addition to the list. And all 3 kinds of ammo are not necessarily going to be used at once. COIN engaged units will use 7.62x39, general units can have 5.56. In case of conflict mobilization, 6.8 can be issued.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

I know all about Anamika....i also know that it hasn't replaced MP5 anywhere...MP5s are still bought every year by lots of agencies in India......But again...if India wants to buy from Germany using FMS...it would be such a big deal that no company / organization can refuse it... But let's hope we don't need it, and our own Multical rifle is good enough..Lets finish this here.....

At times like these, the chinese system does produce quick results.(Keyword is quick)

 

[devhensh]

People talking lot about caliber change is not that easy...simply it's PIA(Pain In Ass).
Reason if you want to change one caliber to another you need these things
1)Better guns and ammo
2)Infrastructure for making huge amount of ammo,because soldiers need alot of time and training for caliber change
3)And war wastage reserves.

Without getting into arguements and taking sides...
- Caliber Change for standard issue rifle for a country is indeed very expensive but countries need to do that to adapt to changing battle scenarios and to maintain OVERMATCH capability. NATO has changed from 7.62x51mm to 5.56mm as standard issue in past and is talking of going to 7.62x51

- When they talk about adding a new intermediate caliber like 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Creedmore, it's to replace existing calibers and not just add to them. For example 6.8 SPC can totally replace 5.56 x45mm as general issue, along with 7.62x39mm for counter insurgency...It's very lethal even from 8 inch barrels and it's replacing 9mm MP5s in many places for very very close CQC and for Personal Security Details(like SPG)......(Many US agencies have adapted it and even Jordan )...That's three calibers !!!

- So ideally, an army should be left with two standard issue rounds, 6.8 SPC as an intermediate and 7.62x51mm as a DMR / Sniper (there would be small requirements for exotic rounds like .338 Lapua and .50 BMG)...

- This should greatly simplify the Logistics, Inventory management and even manufacturing, as once the existing plants are retooled, the investment will pay for itself in double time.....

These are just my thoughts as a Technocrat with some practical expereince in the biggest gun market in world ..
of course there are much more knowledgeable and experienced folks to comment on this...

 

[Kchontha]

Calibar change, as a matter of fact standard issue rifle change, be it a change from 7.61mm to 5.56 mm round or vice versa or to any other hypothetical round, is nothing but part of the business strategy adopted by gun manufacturers nowadays because of the magnitude of money involves. Suppose 1 million strong infentry of a country is equipped with Colt M4 which costs $700 per piece. Therefore besides the OEM a lot of stakeholders are also involved in this business like arm merchants, middleman, media etc etc. But the thing is that you can't just change standard assault rifle of a country's army so easily. You can't just criticise, for example, Colt M4 because it's a world class product. What you can do is criticising 5.56 Nato round it has chambered. It is very easy to create a media hype about the weakness of an ammunition round because all these have its respective pros and cons with the help of paid media. Insas was the victim of the same reason cited above in spite of its reliability and usabiliry/practicability in Indian condition.

For a starter neither the 7.62 nor the 5.56 ammunition that don't use heavy metal can penetrate the ceramic armour at any combat distances. This means that for a 7.62 mm rifle to be effective it must fire a tungsten cored ammo. A tungsten cored 5.46 can also penetrate ceramic body armour to a 100-200 m distance.

 

[devhensh]

There is lot more to it than just marketing.....Especially the reason most of the big armies of the world are coming back to 7.62x51mm.....

This has to do with the lessons learnt by NATO forces in Afganisthan(see highlighted Red part below)...Frequently,the Taliban using PKM(7.62x54mm) were firing from beyond 300 metres ranges where NATO forces were unable to engage them effectively using 5.56x45 mm from mostly 14.5inch barrels...Thus Taliban had an edge in both Range and Knockdown power....

Thus to regain and maintain the overmatch capability....US, UK , Germany all fielded 7.62x51mm rifles......and will do in future

Indian Army will also need to fight most of it's battles in similar vast open terrian(mountains, desert and open plains)...Also 7.62x51mm is the standard issue caliber of Pakistan.......All these factors may have influenced Army's decision to go for 7.62x51mm...

http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=77

 

[devhensh]

Related to my previous post....A good read for people interested in why Infantry Tactics and Armaments are changing...Please note, our(Indian) forces already fight in similar terrain and may have to fight in Afghanistan some day....But i am sure, they definetly better trained for this terrian..not sure if better equipped..

https://www.defensetech.org/2010/03/01/taking-back-the-infantry-half-kilometer/

 

[tharun]

I didn't say it's cheap, just that it's not hard. Bullet cores are extruded lead wire, casings and jackets are stamped and extruded. All stages can be pipelined in a press machine. How much you have to invest for it is a different matter.

It's not that hard..seriously? Present machine capacity is 240 rounds per minute for bullet cup and assembly.
DO the math if you want to make 100 crore rounds per year.
And fixed capital for the plant and machinery and working capital for the raw materials for making bullets.

IA logistics corps already has to maintain stocks of 5.56, 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 7.62x54r etc, so 6.8 is the only new addition to the list. And all 3 kinds of ammo are not necessarily going to be used at once. COIN engaged units will use 7.62x39, general units can have 5.56. In case of conflict mobilization, 6.8 can be issued.

Adding new thing will create a headache.

 

[tharun]

Caliber Change for standard issue rifle for a country is indeed very expensive but countries need to do that to adapt to changing battle scenarios and to maintain OVERMATCH capability

Yes indeed country needs to adapt to current scenarios..but it takes more than a decade to adapt a new caliber not just in few months or less than five years.

NATO has changed from 7.62x51mm to 5.56mm as standard issue in past and is talking of going to 7.62x51

Nato is not changing caliber..it is adding 7.62 as main combat rifle for few regiments.Few days back it ordered 50k more M27 which is 5.45 caliber.

When they talk about adding a new intermediate caliber like 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Creedmore, it's to replace existing calibers and not just add to them. For example 6.8 SPC can totally replace 5.56 x45mm as general issue, along with 7.62x39mm for counter insurgency

Quoted in the above statement.. to replace a caliber takes a minimum decade because of current stock of ammunition and re training soldiers.

This should greatly simplify the Logistics, Inventory management

yes it will simplify the logistics but think about the investment and time needed to refill the war stockage.

These are just my thoughts as a Technocrat with some practical expereince in the biggest gun market in world

What type of experience do you have?

 

[Raj Malhotra]

India Army uses 7.62x51 Caliber as MMGs ie FN GMAG and Bren. This fulfills lot of requirement of long reach.

 

[devhensh]

Yes indeed country needs to adapt to current scenarios..but it takes more than a decade to adapt a new caliber not just in few months or less than five years.


What type of experience do you have?

Read my posts carefully ....Where have i said that the caliber change will happen immediately.....Matter of fact, i have stated that 5.56x45mm will coexist with 7.62x51 ....till maybe some intermediate cartidge like 6.8SPC (or so something in 6.5 range) will replace 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm as a standard issue, like US is planning to do ....7.62x51mm will still be there for long range applications...

M27 IAR is not in 5.45 (as stated in your post) but in 5.56x45mm ....

Also, why do i need to share my experience on a public forum...Is this an Interview !!! I will just say that i am in a country which has the biggest gun culture in the world ....and i have fired and learned about more guns, in gun ranges, than most keyboard warriors will read about in their lifetime.....

My objective was to share information and not get into unecessary arguements and most of my posts are about new developments and tactics....I won't waste my time anymore...

 

[tharun]

Read my posts carefully ....Where have i said that the caliber change will happen immediately.....Matter of fact, i have stated that 5.56x45mm will coexist with 7.62x51 ....till maybe some intermediate cartidge like 6.8SPC (or so something in 6.5 range) will replace 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm as a standard issue, like US is planning to do ....7.62x51mm will still be there for long range applications...

I neither said about replacement. I said was even adaption takes a lot of time.

M27 IAR is not in 5.45 (as stated in your post) but in 5.56x45mm ....

That was a mistake in typing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Keep debates civil, Minus abuses or provoking words ..

 

[tharun]

Here is the two different 6.5mm calibers

6.5mm creedmor and 6.5mm grendel

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

It's not that hard..seriously? Present machine capacity is 240 rounds per minute for bullet cup and assembly.
DO the math if you want to make 100 crore rounds per year.
And fixed capital for the plant and machinery and working capital for the raw materials for making bullets.

Adding new thing will create a headache.

Currently US army is supplied by a single major factory, Lake City ammunition plant, which makes about 150 crore rounds per year, including 5.56, 7.62, .45, 9mm, everything upto.50 cal. It's parent Olin, ATK typically gets awarded 90-100 million dollar contracts with 1.5-2yr duration. Per round costs and quantity are undisclosed tender info so no way to know those. Point is, one single factory supplies majority of the worlds largest armed force's small arms ammunition needs.

On the other hand OFB is world's largest govt operated organization, with about 1.7 lakh employees, and gets allocated around 15000 crore INR as funding each year, and with their very core purpose of making ammunition for the armed forces, CAG reports that Indian Army is short on ammunition.

The facts that OFB is inefficient, bloated, incompetent and complacent in their monopoly and additionally the Army and MoD bureaucracy injects extra lags and confusions are not technical excuses.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The problem is not the OFB but also with Army, Not long before 1999 OFB Chanda produce some thousands of 155mm ammunition which were discarded for silly reasons, When WAR happened Army could not replenish all the exhausted ammunition, Those people who discarded those rounds came back to pick up those faulty ammunition and used at War, OFB send its people to check the preform-ace of those ammunition and the feedback from gunners was better, The OFB rounds preformed better than imported rounds in terms of accuracy ..

OFB chanda`s involvement was not known before but very recently, Afaik, After the WAR there are two factories now producing 155mm rounds and propellants ..

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

The problem is not the OFB but also with Army, Not long before 1999 OFB Chanda produce some thousands of 155mm ammunition which were discarded for silly reasons, When WAR happened Army could not replenish all the exhausted ammunition, Those people who discarded those rounds came back to pick up those faulty ammunition and used at War, OFB send its people to check the preform-ace of those ammunition and the feedback from gunners was better, The OFB rounds preformed better than imported rounds in terms of accuracy ..

OFB chanda`s involvement was not known before but very recently, Afaik, After the WAR there are two factories now producing 155mm rounds and propellants ..

Basically at every level, there is bureaucracy, delay, red tape, confusion and the result is a bloated sick system. Curing the symptoms are not going to help much, and maybe the whole system has become too entrenched and big enough to be beyond repair. So taxpayer money will continue to be wasted, OFB employees will continue to be lazy, Army brass will continue to play blame game and engage is endless decision making process, and MoD will continue to introduce red tape delays about protocols and meaningless details, and year after year CAG will keep reporting about this, which will feed the media for a couple days, then will be forgotten until the next year cycle.