Does Pakistan hide Missile test Failures?

dineshchaturvedi

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I opening this thread to discuss if Pakistan actually reports its failures of missile test. The reason this came to my mind when someone today asked a question about Ghauri-3 missile. It was suppose to be tested in 2004 but I looked over the web found 2 sites saying the news came in but it was never tested. It has been 6 years since then so wondering what the story is, I might be plain wrong but hope we can discuss and get some thoughts.

This also made me feel that failures if not declared will never come to light.

Here are my 2 links finding more.


http://www.missilethreat.com/missilesoftheworld/id.42/missile_detail.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghauri-III
 

Yusuf

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Pakistani missiles are operational missiles with the chinese and north koreans so they don't need developmental tests. I think all their tests are user trials. Being tightly controlled by the pak army, no news of failure will ever come out unlike india where the media splashes it all over as soon as there is a failure.

But for the PA, they just can't be wrong or go wrong in their missile program. I don't know if we will ever find any whistle blowers from there.
 

JAISWAL

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yes they do it, as we naver heard of any failur. and all their missile deployed r china/n.k. develop so no need to test.
 

BunBunCake

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I opening this thread to discuss if Pakistan actually reports its failures of missile test. The reason this came to my mind when someone today asked a question about Ghauri-3 missile. It was suppose to be tested in 2004 but I looked over the web found 2 sites saying the news came in but it was never tested. It has been 6 years since then so wondering what the story is, I might be plain wrong but hope we can discuss and get some thoughts.
You know the Pakistani Armed Forces aren't very rich.

Take example, why do you think PAF is trying to buy 250+ JF-17's (will get by 2015+) when the IAF's FGFA/PAKFA's will be ready by 2020.

Those things cost $15 million a piece. If they wanted to match India, or "deter" India, they shoulda gone for J-11's. But they didn't. Because the J-11's price tag is at 60 million $.

I don't agree much that Pakistani missiles are from China, and Korea, but Pakistan doesn't have a lot of money to develop $$. With their $5 billion budget, they are spending all of it on buying from foreign countries. What do they have left over for R&D.

@Indian Armed Forces, with all that money what the hell are we still trying to DEVELOP an ICBM! This is 2010. We need to speed up our R&D.
 
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Just another angle to why there are so few Pakistani missile test. India by now has the capability to capture missile radar/ heat signatures can this be a reason?? Most of the Pakistani recent tests have been done on the Western side of the country.
 
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dineshchaturvedi

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Well so far I have not come across any credible source that say their missile are China/NK made. I have my doubts but trying to find truth. Hoping someone knows in this forum.
 
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Well so far I have not come across any credible source that say their missile are China/NK made. I have my doubts but trying to find truth. Hoping someone knows in this forum.
http://www.nti.org/db/china/mpakpos.htm

Also Babur is beleived to be a reverse engineered tomahawk missile that Pakistan found in Afghanistan and had China reverse engineer it.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/babur.htm

Ghauri and taepodong

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/pakistan/abdali.htm
 
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Tshering22

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Well so far I have not come across any credible source that say their missile are China/NK made. I have my doubts but trying to find truth. Hoping someone knows in this forum.
Isn't it obvious man? I mean how many countries exactly do you see and willing cooperation for Pakistani missile programmes? USA and NATO are a strict no-no as they don't want anyone equal or around them in capabilities. Russia is politically blocked because of us. That leaves only China as the "power" country to encourage something that would keep us distracted and not be a pain on their backs, and North Korea who is still stuck in 1953 mentally and dreams of a Communist world. In Pakistan one day, the missile designing is announced; 4 months later it is designed, 1 month later it is tested and 1 week after that it is inducted. Which country has been this perfect in "designing" missiles in such short spans of time? And that too without a single failure!

When was the last time we heard any missile failure from pakistani side? Any website, newspaper, international journal? NONE! Because NO ONE Not even USA or Russia can manufacture missiles this fast and so perfect that in first try itself it meets all requirements. Simply put, they're if not painted missiles, at least reverse engineered missiles from China and North Korea. Pakistan's "indigenous" missile theory is as much a reality as Ahmedinejad claiming Iran to have stealth fighters capable of 0 radar signatures already deployed in Iranian Air Force.:happy_7:
 

Daredevil

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India and Pakistan have a pact in place according to which each country should notify other country in the event of testing a ballistic missile. And this has been practiced by both countries. So, if Pakistan tests a missile, India will know it for sure - so Pakistan has to declare whether their missile was successful or not, they cannot hide their missile tests. So far, Pakistanis never reported even one missile failure which so far any other missile producing nation never achieved so far.

As others have already pointed out, it is well known in international community that Pakistani missiles are a painted missiles of North Korean Nodong missiles and Chinese ballistic missiles. Its just 'Paint Job' all the way.
 
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Rage

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Pakistan's first reported missile test was a failure. The Hatf-III, which was supposed to be indigenously developed, but was actually of French Duphin or Dragon-III lineage, aborted mid-flight at about 11 secs if my knowledge serves me correct. Following the failure, and I believe repeated failures to produce a missile, coupled with the first test of the Prithvi short-range missile, Pakistan began shopping around for missiles and procured the M-11 from China, which they also rechristened Shaheen-1 (these being the same thing). They had about 84 of these stored at the Sargodha air base by 2004. The Chinese ofcourse did not give them full shrift. They transferred production designs for a reduced-payload M-11, so that the actual thing could not reach much beyond the Thar desert.

Since then, the US, their sugadaddy that they are, have always been complicit in overseeing transfers btwn. Pak and China. China has regularly transferred systems technology for M-9 (Hatf-II/Shaheen-II) and M-11 (Hatf-III/Ghauri-III) <Notice the implicit conflation of names> as well as set up a fabrication plant for M-11's in Punjab. All the while, the US only imposed Category-II sanctions on Pakistan, and decidedly failed to take notice of the evidence of transfer, fearing it would lead to the imposition of Category-I sanctions on its ally-in-the-war-against-terror.

That's it in a nutshell. All of Pakistan's missiles <including their many conflated names that all pertain to the same thing> have been sourced out of China, after their original test in response to India's Prithvi test, met with abject failure.
 

pmaitra

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@Indian Armed Forces, with all that money what the hell are we still trying to DEVELOP an ICBM! This is 2010. We need to speed up our R&D.
The following report does throw some light on India's ICBM efforts, but then, the news is old. Note that this news is from 2009 and it says India will test a missile with ICBM capabilities in a year. Maybe India is just hiding all the tests it is doing? Who knows? Pakistan probably does not hide it's failures because they never fail. They have been thoroughly tested by PRC/NKorea, hence, no testing and no failure and thus no need to hide. However, India definitely hides a lot of things. INS Arihant is one good example.

Read below:

ICBM test to launch India into Big Five

Rajat Pandit, TNN, Feb 14, 2009, Times of India

BANGALORE: India will test its most ambitious strategic missile next year, in what will be its first step towards having potent ICBM (intercontinental ballistic missile) capabilities, largely the preserve of the Big-5 countries till now.

With the design work on the 5,000-km-range Agni-V virtually over now, DRDO chief M Natarajan on Friday said the missile would certainly be tested before December 2010. "I am very confident we will be able to do it,'' he said, speaking on the sidelines of the Aero India-2009 show here.

The work on the nuclear-capable Agni-V basically revolves around incorporating a third composite stage in the two-stage Agni-III, along with some advanced technologies like ring laser gyroscope and accelerator for navigation and guidance.

Agni-III, with a strike range of 3,500-km to accord the capability to strike targets deep inside China, on its part, has been successfully tested only two times till now.

Defence scientists want the solid-fuelled Agni-V, for which the government has sanctioned around Rs 2,500 crore, to be a canister-launch missile system to ensure it has the requisite operational flexibility to be fired from any part of the country.

Agni-V will be slightly short of true ICBMs, which have ranges in excess of 5,500 km. "We have the capability to go in for much higher range but it is for the government to give a go-ahead. At present, we have a green signal for only Agni-V,'' said a scientist.

As reported recently by TOI, while China is several leagues ahead, India continues to lag behind even Pakistan in the missile race. At present, only the 150-to-350 km short range Prithvi missile can be said to be "fully operational'' in the armed forces. The 700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km Agni-II are still in the process of being inducted into the forces.

India, of course, hopes to gate-crash into the very exclusive club of countries like US, Russia and China, which have both ICBM as well as SLBM (submarine-launched ballistic missile) capabilities, by 2010-2011.

DRDO is working on the K-15 SLBM, having tested it from submersible pontoon launchers till now, with the aim to integrate it on the indigenous nuclear submarines being built under the secretive ATV (advanced technology vessel) project.

Though not in the range of the over 5,000-km SLBMs in the arsenal of US, Russia and China, the 750-km range K-15 will accord India with the desperately-needed third leg of the "nuclear weapon triad''. India currently depends on the Agni missiles as well as fighters like Mirage-2000s as its platforms to deliver nuclear weapons.

DRDO, of course, is also going to shortly conduct the third test of the fledgling two-tier BMD (ballistic missile defence) system, capable of tracking and destroying incoming hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere.

The BMD system was tested for the first time in November 2006 when an "exo-atmospheric'' hypersonic interceptor missile was used to destroy an "enemy'' Prithvi missile at an altitude of 40-50 km.

The second time, in December 2007, an "endo-atmospheric interceptor'' took on an enemy missile at an altitude of 15-km. "After the third test in a month or so, we will test the endo and exo together in an integrated mode later this year,'' said a scientist.

Read more: ICBM test to launch India into Big Five - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ig-Five/articleshow/4126401.cms#ixzz17JNTJCyc
 

sob

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Gen. Musharraf is on record admitting the failure of Ghauri-i and Ghauri II missile tests.
Former President Pervez Musharraf has said missile tests of Ghauri I and Ghauri II failed and Dr. Qadeer Khan is well aware of all this, Geo News reported.
Link :http://geo.tv/11-10-2010/74121.htm
 

smarterone

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From the FreeLibrary.com
The New York Times article described a series of classified briefings given to U.S. lawmakers detailing China's export of missile technology and its provision of technical expertise to Pakistan.
Washington fears China's assistance will enable Pakistan to acquire long-range missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads.
In 1998 both India and Pakistan joined the nuclear club by detonating nuclear weapons.
Even though China is not a signatory to the MTCR, the U.S. Senate is currently debating a bill that would impose sanctions on China if ''credible evidence'' is found it is exporting missile technology, the New York Times reported.
And that debate may be delaying a Senate vote granting China permanent most-favored-nation (MFN) status, which passed the House of Representatives in late May.
But responding to similar allegations in early May, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman stressed China had ''very strict regulations'' on weapons exports.
China and Pakistan do, however, have a history of military cooperation. Beijing supplied Islamabad with some short-range missiles in 1993 but, facing pressure from the United States, agreed to abide by the main provisions of the MTCR in 1994, promising not to export its M-11 missile to Pakistan.
Pakistan never developed a diwali rocket forget a missile. All missiles in its arsenal are Chinese or N.Korean. It is a Pakistani strategy to call all things stolen/acquired from PRC/NK as indigenous to satisfy its domestic audience and also to save China from embarrassment on the world stage. And it is not only missiles - Al-Khalid MBT, JF-17 Thunder, UAVs etc all are outsourced, painted green and called indigenous. And then the pakistani zealots go to all forums and claim their wares as superior. JF-17 is a prime example. Even its radar is not finalised, forget WSI and avionics, and they have inducted the AC.
 

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