Defective T-72 Tanks

[SATISH]

Kunalji I wanted to ask one thing. The Bursting barrel has been reported since the induction of the new explosive charge in the tank ammo. Does that have something to do with the pressure created inside the barrel? Or is it because the barrel itself is at fault?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Bursting of barrels specially with T-72M1 are reported since early 90s within Army reports ..

Old barrels with new ammo are bad idea, The old barrels cannot take the chamber pressure of new ammo hence explodes ..

Then again there are faulty barrels, There are not just one reason for such a mess..

Kunalji I wanted to ask one thing. The Bursting barrel has been reported since the induction of the new explosive charge in the tank ammo. Does that have something to do with the pressure created inside the barrel? Or is it because the barrel itself is at fault?

 

[p2prada]

Seems like journalists on both sides have a great deal of knowledge regarding defense equipment.

Desi Dork Media, they're called.

 

[Dazzler]

Bursting of barrels specially with T-72M1 are reported since early 90s within Army reports ..

Old barrels with new ammo are bad idea, The old barrels cannot take the chamber pressure of new ammo hence explodes ..

Then again there are faulty barrels, There are not just one reason for such a mess..

2a46-M, standard fit on Ajeya offers 500-520 bar pressure, wonder what is the chamber pressure for these two rounds since its not mentioned in the brochure, considering their respective velocities i.e. 1500, 1600m/s, it should be around 500-510 mpa at best, shouldnt put much pressure on the barrel.

 

[Dazzler]

EDIT: according to this source, the pressure of OFB round is indeed higher than what the Ajeya 2a46-M1 gun can support

Projectile weight 7.89 kg
Projectile unit length max. 678 mm
Penetrator Tungsten alloy
Sabot Aluminum
Tail
Steel

Propelling charge weight 8.5 kg
Penetrator L/D ratio approx. 20

BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE
Muzzle velocity 1660m/s (nominal)
Chamber pressure 570 Mpa (nominal)
Accuracy, typical SD 0.25 mil

TEMPERATURE LIMITS
Firing -40 to +50°C
Storage -40 to +70°C
Storage class SCG 1.3C

Ordnance Factory Board

 

[ersakthivel]

Desi Dork Media, they're called.

You just can't simply say DDM in this instance,

The pressure handling capacity of the T-72 gun is far lower than the new rounds developed by OFB seems to be the issue.

We can simply blame OFB for giving high chamber pressure ammo to T-72 regiments for this problem.

The crucial fact we forget here is it is not impossible for OFB to make lower chamber pressure rounds for T-72,

But considering today's tech level those low pressure rounds won't have so much penetration level.

So we can't dismiss this report as simply DDM of incompetent OFB,

If the IA has asked for higher penetration rounds for T-72 barrel from OFB, there is no way OFB is going to make better penetration ammo with lower chamber pressure. it goes against the laws of physics more velocity , more chamber pressure leads to higher penetration with longer penetration rods .

So the bottom line is those thousands of T-72 barrels are obsolete. That is what important,

Question is instead of preparing for the induction of far better tech level Arjun into at least it's desert specific strike formations with suitable supporting infra like 70 ton bridge laying tanks , the IA is continuously finding one excuse after another to stop the induction of Arjun in large scale and throwing good money over bad money by repeatedly upgrading these totally obsolete cold war relic called T-72.

There is no meaning in boasting about cold start doctrine , with 1970's obsolete tech level T-72 tanks.

It is this that needed to be noted.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Back in 2008, I was inside a T-72M1 upgraded Ajaya, The tank was original from Soviat factory with CCCP markings ..

That how old they are, Not every T-72M1 has upgraded barrel ..

We can simply blame OFB for giving high chamber pressure ammo to T-72 regiments for this problem..

 

[sayareakd]

Question is and should be why we have T 72 tanks in first place. If we have local MBT available then we should use it. Arjun is far far better then geeting our tank crew killed on outdated T72.

 

[Dazzler]

cant they replace outdated barrels with new ones so they could fire new rounds without putting crew life on stake? it shouldnt be that difficult.

 

[sayareakd]

cant they replace outdated barrels with new ones so they could fire new rounds without putting crew life on stake? it shouldnt be that difficult.

that is the easy part, difficult part is how to make money while doing the same. That is what they are trying.

 

[The Last Stand]

2a46-M, standard fit on Ajeya offers 500-520 bar pressure, wonder what is the chamber pressure for these two rounds since its not mentioned in the brochure, considering their respective velocities i.e. 1500, 1600m/s, it should be around 500-510 mpa at best, shouldnt put much pressure on the barrel.

The T-72M's original 2A46 is not that great of a gun, it can probably take no more than 600 mpa (I don't know the exact values), but still even a round creating pressure within 100 mpa of the pressure limit can wear out the barrel incredibly quickly.

 

[Dazzler]

The T-72M's original 2A46 is not that great of a gun, it can probably take no more than 600 mpa (I don't know the exact values), but still even a round creating pressure within 100 mpa of the pressure limit can wear out the barrel incredibly quickly.

True that, the higher the chamber pressure the more wear tear in the barrel, although electro-slag refined steel does help to reduce it to an extent but not much. Though, 2a46M4 and onwards are real quality guns to be honest.

 

[p2prada]

Question is and should be why we have T 72 tanks in first place. If we have local MBT available then we should use it. Arjun is far far better then geeting our tank crew killed on outdated T72.

That's because we have a major tank project running already and the leftover funds can be better utilized in upgrading the infantry and getting force multipliers like command and control aircraft. Inducting that "local" tank will make it more expensive than what the T-90 already is and will put FMBT program on the backburner, which is planned to be the "real" local tank and is much more crucial for indigenization.

The point is IA is more busy raising entirely new corps for the Chinese theater, which is even more expensive, instead of looking to build more and more capability only against Pakistan. The F-INSAS program itself is going to be a huge program which will increase IA's fighting power by many times, so why waste money on something that even T-72 is good enough for.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian T-72M1 Ajaya use variety of Guns, This include Soviet design 2A46 ( 600 MPa ) and OFB made 125mm Gun ( 612 MPa ), The rounds are suitable firing from OFB barrels, Not 2A46 ..

There is mess about T-72M1 from defective OFB barrels to rusting 2A46 and defective Russian propellents purchased by OFB ..

The T-72M's original 2A46 is not that great of a gun, it can probably take no more than 600 mpa (I don't know the exact values), but still even a round creating pressure within 100 mpa of the pressure limit can wear out the barrel incredibly quickly.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This thread should be also visible now ..

T-90 are in same condition as T-72 are ..

 

[Jagdish58]

Wa the Tank Ex Aka MBT Karna was not good enough to replace T-72 ???

Tank EX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just like the great warrior Karna in mahabharat , Tank ex also fought against fortune sadly failed

 

[Kunal Biswas]

A nice article on Tank EX program ..

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Tank Ex, ideal T-72 upgrades

Mercifully, Tank – Ex is not an Indian Army requirement/product like Arjun tank. Tank-Ex is fortunately not going to witness the Indian Army unprofessional attitude as it displayed on the Arjun Tank project and it's even more fortunate that Indian Army has already asked "we didn't ask it, why you made it?" I hope I am clear that Tank Ex has got nothing to do with Indian Army and very good chances that it won't. If ever has anything to do it Indian Army, god save it.

In the Defence Expo, 2004, Tank Ex was displayed for the first time. George Fernandes, the then defence minister standing on the top of the tank along with DRDO officials asked them the purpose of the tank model. The DRDO officials replied by saying that there are many T-72 tanks around the world that will be available for upgrades; Tank-Ex is an ideal choice.

Arjun Tank Turret like most 55 ton + tank turrets has many advanced features. Arjun Tank also has many advanced electronics add-ons and a very good gun. The first task was to reduce the weight of the Arjun Turret for T-72 use. The armor of the Arjun Turret was rationalized and hence it brought down the weight of the Turret. An autoloader can be installed into the turret. The two changes along with advanced addon's and Arjun Tank Gun will make it a very potent upgrade for T-72 tanks worldwide.

Read more: Tank Ex, ideal T-72 upgrades
Frontier India - news, Analysis, Opinion
Follow us: @frontierindia on Twitter | frontierindia on Facebook

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Logically it would have been very good for force, But unfortunately its not ..

Wa the Tank Ex Aka MBT Karna was not good enough to replace T-72 ???

Tank EX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just like the great warrior Karna in mahabharat , Tank ex also fought against fortune sadly failed

 

[ghost]

A nice article on Tank EX program ..

==================================>>


Tank Ex, ideal T-72 upgrades



Read more: Tank Ex, ideal T-72 upgrades
Frontier India - news, Analysis, Opinion
Follow us: @frontierindia on Twitter | frontierindia on Facebook

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Logically it would have been very good for force, But unfortunately its not ..

So how many tank EX have been exported ?or how many t72 of the other country have been upgraded by DRDO?
Do not blame anyone and everyone except drdo.If ur ---- is so good why does it not show in terms of export?
Again you will blame government and army.


Here i am posting someone else comment which i found apt for DRDO fanboys

While most of what you have mentioned is true, there is a hint of derision in the way Indian Army is mentioned vis a vis the DRDO. At the onset, it must be understood that the DRDO exists because of and to support the Armed Forces, and not vice versa. To that end, when the Army says it has not asked for the X-tank, it is well within its rights.
What went wrong with Arjun has been a matter of intense debate in various forums. But the bottomline is that the customer is not happy. Even if it a 'captive' customer – seller relationship as in this case, the customer is still the king. This would probably be a unique case where the seller is stuffing his product down the cutomer's throat, and then going to town complaining about the latter's attitude.
The moot point in my view, apart from the numerous shortcomings of the Arjunj, it is not at the end of the day, an indigenous tank. At best, it is a conglomeration of components from a number of sources. X-tank is taking this approach a step further. So the basic argument of 'indigenisation' of tank design in both the cases is flawed. The other issue is that why should we look at re-inventing the wheel in this day and age? If we are not capable of developing our own tank engine or fire control system, why should we insist on window dressing?
Why not look at a model where we go in for joint development with others to produce an improved tank after giving Arjun a decent burial?
Its time people rise above their narrow turf wars and start looking at solutions that are pragmatic and in the larger interest of the country.


My take its time we stop cribbing and look for solutions .T72 good or bad are here to stay beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its creation was not meant for export but an upgrade of T-72M1 in Indian Army, Tank EX program never made into Indian Army coz Russian did-not allow modification of existing T-72 chassis back then due to copy-write issues like T-90 case of now, This leads to a new tank not an upgrade of T-72, Hence it was rejected from Op Rhino ..

The Dark Horse: Then there is DRDO's Tank-Ex. More of a de novo development, rather than an upgrade - this project sees the Arjun's firepower and protection coupled with the T-72M1's low profile and agility. The Arjun's turret is integrated with the T-72M1's hull. The armour is the Kanchan and a 1000 hp power plant (an up rated 780 hp engine) is standard. An APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) is also provided. The Tank-Ex will also benefit from the Arjun-LAHAT integration. Two prototypes have been built and are to be demonstrated to the Indian Army this year. Once the trials are successful, some 300 tanks could be ordered. It has been suggested that T-72M1 hulls will be imported from Russia instead of utilising the existing T-72M1s in the Indian inventory. In that case, the Tank-Ex would be more of a new acquisition rather than part of Project Rhino.

Source :Bharat Rakshak :: Land Forces Site - Project Rhino - T-72 Upgrade

Before making such posts, I suggest go through ' Op Rhino ' ..

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This would be last time, I am probably replying your rant with patience ..

So how many tank EX have been exported ? My take its time we stop cribbing and look for solutions .T72 good or bad are here to stay beggars can't be choosers.

 

[Blood+]

Good riddance.