Chinese Regional Jets & Airliners

[rockdog]

Chinese ICE autos are pretty good too and their manufacture is on an epic scale but they don't have the marketing clout of the established players. Everyone starts fresh with EVs.

China's gas turbine powered aircraft industries will be epic too but won't match the marketing clout (and slanted regulations) that entrench the Boeing-Airbus duopoly. But everything will start fresh with EP aircraft though battery size for airliners might be prohibitive unless there is a very massive leap in technology.

China has a major nuclear power program including mini-reactors. Now that can power flight as well as moonbases and floating settlements in the open ocean

China Makes World's First Small Modular Nuclear Reactor

The China made world's first small modular nuclear reactor heats up helium instead of water to produce power.

tech.hindustantimes.com

China is Home to World's First Small Modular Nuclear Reactor

China continues to stake its claim as the world’s biggest proponent of new nuclear energy technology, connecting its first small modular reactor to the power grid.

www.bloomberg.com

Another interesting trend is, on UAV area, no matter big or small, more and more nations are considering to learn the concept from China.

Like two recent UAVs from Turkey, they are quite similar with Chinese GJ11 and j20. as you knew China and Turkey had good military cooperation.

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for smaller drones, there are countless DJI like products over the world.

@SexyChineseLady @ym888

The best thing here is, i don't need to hear any stuff like "we Mexico / and my neighbor Brazil are good at a b c..." in coming UAV era.

Because for UAV supply chain you would find almost all components in Shenzhen + Dongguan +Zhongshan, or just one market in Shenzhen called Huangqiangbei 华强北.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Chinese ICE autos are pretty good too and their manufacture is on an epic scale but they don't have the marketing clout of the established players. Everyone starts fresh with EVs.

China's gas turbine powered aircraft industries will be epic too but won't match the marketing clout (and slanted regulations) that entrench the Boeing-Airbus duopoly. But everything will start fresh with EP aircraft though battery size for airliners might be prohibitive unless there is a very massive leap in technology.

China has a major nuclear power program including mini-reactors. Now that can power flight as well as moonbases and floating settlements in the open ocean

China Makes World's First Small Modular Nuclear Reactor

The China made world's first small modular nuclear reactor heats up helium instead of water to produce power.

tech.hindustantimes.com

China is Home to World's First Small Modular Nuclear Reactor

China continues to stake its claim as the world’s biggest proponent of new nuclear energy technology, connecting its first small modular reactor to the power grid.

www.bloomberg.com

pure excuses, the duopoly of Airbus and Boeing is based upon making airliners with longer range, in fact Chinese C919 uses western components, the west has allowed China the use of western engines and subsystems, even tech transfers in fuselage design.


However the Chinese practice is copy and later try to compete, however in this case, they have failed since it is a fact C919 is behind to Airbus main products A-321XRL and A-220-300, which have longer range due to aerodynamics and better structural design, since A-220-300 matches even C919 main parameters

engine CFM Leap one, western engine

he A220-300's advanced aerodynamics, combined with specifically-designed Pratt & Whitney PurePower PW1500G geared turbofan engines, contribute to an aircraft that delivers 25% lower fuel burn per seat than previous generation aircraft, with half the noise footprint and decreased emissions, making it a true community- .

So there is no excuse, C919 has ever western aid

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Another interesting trend is, on UAV area, no matter big or small, more and more nations are considering to learn the concept from China.

Like two recent UAVs from Turkey, they are quite similar with Chinese GJ11 and j20. as you knew China and Turkey had good military cooperation.


View attachment 202973

View attachment 202974

View attachment 202975

View attachment 202976

--------

for smaller drones, there are countless DJI like products over the world.

@SexyChineseLady @ym888

The best thing here is, i don't need to hear any stuff like "we Mexico / and my neighbor Brazil are good at a b c..." in coming UAV era.

Because for UAV supply chain you would find almost all components in Shenzhen + Dongguan +Zhongshan, or just one market in Shenzhen called Huangqiangbei 华强北.

Military aircraft never can compare to the efficiency of civil aircraft because of high by pass engines reduce drastically fuel consumption.

So bringing drones or fighters is just a big excuse to say why ARJ-21 has a shorter range than E-195 or A-220 and a big excuse why C-919 can not compete with the newer A-321XRL or A-220-300 in terms of range.

See here contrary to the Chinese the west allows C919 the use of western engines and subsystems, no Chinese turbofan powers both ARJ-21 or C919 both are powered by western engines but the aerodynamics of A-220 and A-321XRL plus better fuselge design allows more fuel and lower fuel consumption making the A-321XRL ticket price for seat up to 40% cheaper than C919.

What then happens? China can build under obligation lots of ARJ-21 and C919 similar to the Soviet Union, but outside China most airliners will buy western aircraft simply because seat price by ticket will allo people to fly for lower price and low cost airliner will get advantages with Airbus aircraft.

Can China compete, yes it can but contrary to Airbus that has sold more than 10000 A-320 derivatives, COMAC is basing its C919 on a protectionist base, why? the R&D of Airbus is coming from revenue and profits and the program makes Airbus aircraft more profitable than C919

 

[KurtisBrian]

pure excuses, the duopoly of Airbus and Boeing is based upon making airliners with longer range, in fact Chinese C919 uses western components, the west has allowed China the use of western engines and subsystems, even tech transfers in fuselage design.


However the Chinese practice is copy and later try to compete, however in this case, they have failed since it is a fact C919 is behind to Airbus main products A-321XRL and A-220-300, which have longer range due to aerodynamics and better structural design, since A-220-300 matches even C919 main parameters

Isn't the C919 made in collaboration with Bombardier?
The A-220 is a Bombardier jet, purchased by Airbus.

Planes must be very similar.

As you said obtaining better technology isn't too difficult.
People with knowledge, abilities, powers or skills will go to whoever rewards them the best/cheats them the least.
Of course, like said in Batman, once cheated/harmed/robbed some just want to see the world burn. World is getting hot, isn't it?

 

[MiG-29SMT]

Isn't the C919 made in collaboration with Bombardier?
The A-220 is a Bombardier jet, purchased by Airbus.

Planes must be very similar.

As you said obtaining better technology isn't too difficult.
People with knowledge, abilities, powers or skills will go to whoever rewards them the best/cheats them the least.
Of course, like said in Batman, once cheated/harmed/robbed some just want to see the world burn. World is getting hot, isn't it?

There are collaboration in both programs, but now A-220-300 is 80% owned by Airbus,

It is no more a Bombardier product, Embraer tried to do the same but Boeing did not accept, Embraer wanted just to keep its private jet manufacturing and ownership since they know E-195 is competing to some degree with A-320

 

[KurtisBrian]

There are collaboration in both programs, but now A-220-300 is 80% owned by Airbus,

It is no more a Bombardier product, Embraer tried to do the same but Boeing did not accept, Embraer wanted just to keep its private jet manufacturing and ownership since they know E-195 is competing to some degree with A-320

A-220 proves my point.

Bombardier created the C-series jet but could only sell a few. Same jet branded as Airbus 220 sells like hotcakes.
Like I said, cabalism matters.
Pricing did not matter. Technology did not matter.

Fire, ice, drought will matter.

 

[rockdog]

Military aircraft never can compare to the efficiency of civil aircraft because of high by pass engines reduce drastically fuel consumption.

so why compared Y20 and B787?

 

[MiG-29SMT]

A-220 proves my point.

Bombardier created the C-series jet but could only sell a few. Same jet branded as Airbus 220 sells like hotcakes.
Like I said, cabalism matters.
Pricing did not matter. Technology did not matter.

Fire, ice, drought will matter.

is not that simple, Bombardier is like Embraer a big company but not in the league of Airbus, Airbus has more resources to sell the aircraft, consider that Embraer tried the move Bombardier did, why? competing versus Boeing or Airbus is not easy consider E-170 Family including all its versions E-190/195 for example have production numbers in the region of 1700 aircraft built but only A-320 has more than 10000, so Airbus sells more aircraft than Embraer and same is A-220 when it was owned by Bombardier.

Bombardier was competing with Boeing, directly.

So Bombardier still has other jets to sell the move was easy get rid of a program that might bankrupt you.

MRJ for example tried to enter on a market and fail, same was Mc Donnell douglas with MD-11, aviation always has the risk factor of any business to fail

I recommend you this video, Technology is not enough selling and revenue is always the main objective

 

[MiG-29SMT]

so why compared Y20 and B787?

View attachment 202989

pure blah blah blah, Airliners need economic efficiency.

In the 1950s most Airliners were 4 engined such as

By the 1960s Tri jets were common, B727, Yak-40, Tu-154

By the 1980s

A-300 started the trend of 2 engined wide body aircraft, by 1990s Il-96 was obsolete, same was MD-11 or Il-62


Comac thanks to modern western engines designed the 2 engined C919, but you lack to comprehend Airbus designed the A-321XRL with a range and ticket price that leaves C919 obsolete, despite is a very modern aircraft, delays have make it less efficient than even compared to the original A-320, but totally outclassed by A-321XRL, entering first means selling first thus basically Airbus will enjoy at least a decade of sales before Comac can upgrade C919 and by that time Airbus will have enough money for new aircraft


Since Y-20 is not a twin engined aircraft, modern Chinese turbofans do not power C919 but even they would have a turbofan they are late, C919 flies on western engines and A-321 XRL or A-220 are available now with better performance

 

[KurtisBrian]

I recommend you this video, Technology is not enough selling and revenue is always the main objective

In that case, the COMAC 919 has all of China and China's partners and nations dependent upon China trade as a source for revenue. Partners could even be anybody the European nations robbed/enslaved while the Chinese didn't.
Like you say technology is not enough to sell.

COMAC 919 was designed in collaboration with Bombardier, creator of the advanced C-series (now A-220). COMAC 919 will undoubtedly be competitive especially considering all the other added advantages trade with China brings.

This time it is not little Bombardier/Canada competing against the EU or US, it is huge China and any who don't want to be under the thumb of the EU cabalists or US.

 

[ym888]

Indian airline Go First files for bankruptcy blaming US engine maker
https://www.ft.com/content/42de2bdf-6442-43d1-bdbb-a5ea1a5dfad7

Prior to ceasing operations, Go First operated an all Airbus A320 fleet:[34][35]

Go First fleet

Total	53	89
Aircraft	In service	Orders	Passengers	Notes
Airbus A320-200	5	—	180	—
Airbus A320neo	48	89	186	—

 

[MiG-29SMT]

In that case, the COMAC 919 has all of China and China's partners and nations dependent upon China trade as a source for revenue. Partners could even be anybody the European nations robbed/enslaved while the Chinese didn't.
Like you say technology is not enough to sell.

COMAC 919 was designed in collaboration with Bombardier, creator of the advanced C-series (now A-220). COMAC 919 will undoubtedly be competitive especially considering all the other added advantages trade with China brings.

This time it is not little Bombardier/Canada competing against the EU or US, it is huge China and any who don't want to be under the thumb of the EU cabalists or US.

I agree in some points, If you check all nations do support their aviation industry, governments do support them, It goes from COMAC, Airbus, Boeing or Irkut, same even in small players like Cicare or Horizontec from Argentina or Mexico.

But do not lie to your self, COMAC is as predatory as Boeing or Aibus, they simply hide their true intentions like the under dog,.

But technically speaking there are many examples of aircraft where economics bankrupt their creators and production never even started but were technologicall marvels

Example

in jet fighters

commercial aircraft

or

Dassault mercure


I mean there are ample examples of aircraft failing it is not unusual

A-220 was an aircraft that needed a joint venture and they did it but later Bombardier withdrew, leaving only 19% ownership by Canada

Technology is not the problem, it is always money

SR-10 for example very beautiful design, very modern, where is it production?

COMAC knows their jet is not selling but they will buy it as Russia continue building Tu-154 in 2013, I mean in 2010 Russia did not have a true equivalent to A-300 or B-777, so they have technology by it is by margins of 20% or 30% what makes enourmous differences, specially in ticket price

I recommend you this video

 

[Azaad]

Indian airline Go First files for bankruptcy blaming US engine maker
https://www.ft.com/content/42de2bdf-6442-43d1-bdbb-a5ea1a5dfad7

Prior to ceasing operations, Go First operated an all Airbus A320 fleet:[34][35]

Go First fleet

Total	53	89
Aircraft	In service	Orders	Passengers	Notes
Airbus A320-200	5	—	180	—
Airbus A320neo	48	89	186	—

Yup. Go First is accusing P&W of screwing it over . Prima facie Go First seems to have a case.

Go First at NCLT: What are the airline’s allegations against Pratt & Whitney?

Go First at NCLT: The airline argued that the Los Angeles-based engine-maker is to be blamed to a great extent, along with COVID-19 restrictions, for its situation today. Go First had also moved for emergency arbitration in Singapore.

www.businesstoday.in

 

[MiG-29SMT]

In that case, the COMAC 919 has all of China and China's partners and nations dependent upon China trade as a source for revenue. Partners could even be anybody the European nations robbed/enslaved while the Chinese didn't.
Like you say technology is not enough to sell.

COMAC 919 was designed in collaboration with Bombardier, creator of the advanced C-series (now A-220). COMAC 919 will undoubtedly be competitive especially considering all the other added advantages trade with China brings.

This time it is not little Bombardier/Canada competing against the EU or US, it is huge China and any who don't want to be under the thumb of the EU cabalists or US.

what I am trying to say eventually joint ventures make more sense, even for big companies, failing in aviation is not uncommon, success is not always granted, I know it since I know in Mexico we were building aircraft very competitive in the 1920s but economics and politics destroyed their programs, Embraer succed because they learned to make money by listening to airliners and doing joint ventures

 

[KurtisBrian]

Technology is not the problem, it is always money

money is a problem for those who want, or need, to purchase. If you are not doing either of those things then money is unimportant.

Kind of like that Iron Man scene where he builds an armored robot suit in a cave.

 

[ym888]

Yup. Go First is accusing P&W of screwing it over . Prima facie Go First seems to have a case.

Go First at NCLT: What are the airline’s allegations against Pratt & Whitney?

Go First at NCLT: The airline argued that the Los Angeles-based engine-maker is to be blamed to a great extent, along with COVID-19 restrictions, for its situation today. Go First had also moved for emergency arbitration in Singapore.

www.businesstoday.in

The cash-strapped Indian carrier, which has declared insolvency, has blamed the US firm’s ‘faulty engines’ for its woes.
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New Delhi: Germany’s flag carrier Lufthansa has temporarily grounded a third of its Airbus A220 fleet in Zurich due to issues with Pratt & Whitney engines, days after India’s Wadia Group-owned Go First accused it of supplying “faulty engines”.



Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said in a statement that elements were missing way down in their supply chains, and that companies needed to rebuild their production facilities.
India’s third-largest airline, which filed for bankruptcy Tuesday, said it had to ground 25 aircraft or about 50% of its Airbus A320neo aircraft fleet — as of 1 May — due to issues with Pratt & Whitney engines. Pratt & Whitney is the exclusive engine supplier for Go First’s Airbus A320 neo aircraft fleet.
Go First has argued in the case that Pratt & Whitney engines had a “serious design flaw” which caused shutdowns and premature failure, and led to the grounding of its aircraft.
The US engine-maker, on the other hand, said the recently-branded Go First “had a lengthy history of missing its financial obligations” to P&W.
The Wadia Group-owned airline has now cancelled flights till 9 May and assured passengers a full refund — a day after it abruptly suspended operation and declared insolvency. The cash-strapped airline has also suspended the sale of tickets till 15 May.
To Go First’s charge, the US firm hit back saying the Wadia Group had a “lengthy history” of missing financial obligations to the company.
But in a three-page, strongly-worded statement Tuesday, Go First – formerly GoAir — said the airline was set back by Rs 10,800 crores in lost revenues and additional expenses. “Moreover, Go First has paid Rs 5,657 crores to lessors in the last two years of which approximately Rs 1,600 crores was paid towards lease rent for non-operational grounded aircraft from the funds infused by the Promoters & Government of India’s Emergency CreditLine Guarantee Scheme,” the statement read.
The company also said the Go First management had repeatedly sought to engage with Pratt & Whitney on the engine issue, but Pratt & Whitney did not respond constructively. “Instead, despite its contractual obligations to provide a spare leased engine within 48 hours of failure, it refused to provide sufficient spare leased engines to Go First and refused to repair Go First’s engines.”

 

[MiG-29SMT]

money is a problem for those who want, or need, to purchase. If you are not doing either of those things then money is unimportant.

No if you are doing R&D and the market is not well studied.

COMAC has taken a given we have a Market and by decree all chinese airliners will buy C919 by decree, since the Chinese goverment owns COMAC and the airliners, they can do that, now they have money.

Russia could not do that by 2000s Russian airliners started buying Boeing or Airbus even some Embraer aircraft.


The reason was the Russian Government did not have the money to do it.

They were still building Tu-154 in 2010 can you imaging?

I can tell you why Embraer succeded, first they started by considering sales were to be from airliners, not the Brazilian Government, second they stopped building military aircraft and they focused on civil aircraft.

They did not alianate western companies but bought parts from western companies and the brazilian components matched foreign components, so they were easily accepted in the west.

China has a protectionist policy but is not upon for true competition

 

[SexyChineseLady]

 

[SexyChineseLady]

money is a problem for those who want, or need, to purchase. If you are not doing either of those things then money is unimportant.

Kind of like that Iron Man scene where he builds an armored robot suit in a cave.

Money is not the only issue and only a very naive or, more likely, a very retarded person would think so after Russia got banned from Airbus and Boeing parts

It is a strategic industry. The world sundering into blocks. There no guarantee that you can even buy Airbus and Boeing as Russia's case has shown.

Russia is barring Western aircraft from overflying its air space in retaliation. That is already making Airbuses and Boeings inefficient flying from Europe to East Asia

For China, the ARJ-21, C919 and C929 and their engines, the CJ1000/2000/500, are strategic.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

From AECC, promotional film on the CJ2000 -- high efficiency wide-body turbofan with low CO emissions and 35000kg of force (343kN) to be certified by 2030: