China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[Adioz]

DO you want to deny that China manipulated GDP DATA?
Do you deny that Chinese GDP growth inspite of manipulation is lowest in last two decades?
Do you deny that a huge chunk of foreign currency wiped out from chinese exchequer some time ago?
Do you want to deny that china borrow 6USD to add 1 usd to its GDP?
Do you want to deny that china keeps its currency artificially low to stay relevant?

Answer this than we can take the discussion forward.

If you think that that you are an expert than show your expertise by your argument and facts. I am not an economist having the deep study of world economics and so as the all the members of the forum.

It is chinese media (No need to say that state run) who has said that India shall be new factory of the world. It is not me who say that India shall be No 1 economy between 2044 to 2050. It is said by goldman sach and many such big agency. What I said is quoted by big economist and fact based Data. Can you deny that chinese stock market loose trillions of dollars and china loose foreign exchange in few days which is more than Indian foreign exchange. Theses are facts and figures and one need not be an economist to know all that.

If you want any argument than come with pointed argument and counter me. There is no point in BS such as you do not know and you do not have knowledge.

Fair enough. I am no expert, but let me elaborate this for you based on what I know:-

“India shall be no 1 economy between 2044 to 2050” (I am assuming you mean that to be measured by the size of the economy). This number is based on the assumption that China will get stuck in a middle income trap and that per capita income in India will rise to the same level as China’s by 2050. That would mean that the productivity per person in both the Chinese and Indian economies will roughly be the same. The population projections for that year (which are far far more reliable than any other projections in a long term period) tell us that the size of the Indian workforce will dwarf the size of the workforces of other world economies and certainly be bigger in size than the Chinese workforce. This is the so called demographic dividend that you must have read about in the articles about India. It is the single biggest reason for continued optimism in the future of Indian economy. Reaping this dividend is the top priority of the Government of India. But the key here is to create a level of infrastructure that is comparable to that of China, and at the same time, we need to prepare the average Indian person (who will populate the Indian workforce of 2050) to be roughly as productive as the average Chinese person of 2050. That means similar levels of education, nutrition, healthcare and similar job opportunities. Frankly speaking, I do not see India growing as fast as it needs to unless China moves the f**k up the value chain and vacates space for us to turn into an export-led economy. This can only happen if China manages the switch it is currently attempting (a switch from an export-led economy to a domestic-demand-led economy). If it succeeds, its GDP growth rate will definitely slow down, but it will still maintain an impressive growth rate. Most likely, the Indian government will have to prepare for a judicious mix of export-led and domestic-demand-driven growth. Why so? Because I feel that:-

• Chinese population is far too big to allow it to quickly make such a switch.
• There is a reversal in the trend of globalization as many countries that were the traditional proponents of globalization (such as the USA and UK) have witnessed a paradigm shift and have started looking inwards (still debatable how long this will go on). As a result, the boom-days of export-led growth are over. The situation is so ironic today that countries like China (a declared communist state are forced to become the new proponents of globalization)
• There is a direct threat to low-skill jobs due to the ever-increasing adaption of automation in the industry. (highly debatable if it reduces or augments total number of jobs, but it most likely drastically reduces the number of low-skilled-jobs : the kind of jobs that we need most in our country today)

Contrary to popular belief, we are not in direct competition with China on the economic front (or the cultural front, or the cricket front). The competition is limited to the politico-ideological and military fronts. On the economic front, our economies are highly complementary. We can collaborate with China to make us both even stronger (economically speaking), or we can let China collaborate with others (like Vietnam and see them grow stronger together). At the same time, there is an overarching need to be wary of the expansionist (maybe hegemonic, hopefully not imperialistic) desires that China shows very often.

Bottom line, I am fairly optimistic that we will grow to be the second largest economy by 2050 and subsequently will overtake China in 2065-ish, that is, if the world does not go south by then. And I am assuming that in a country as dynamic as ours, greater economic growth will translate into greater economic development.

The numbers that you state as facts are, indeed, facts. And you do not need to be an economist to read those numbers. True. But you do need a very elementary grasp of some basic economic concepts to decipher the meaning of those numbers. Does a comparison of the foreign exchange reserves of an economy like China with those an economy like India give us any useful information? None. Trade by volume and by value of Chinese economy is much more than that for the Indian economy. China loses a lot of foreign exchange (more than the size of the foreign exchange of India) overnight because of:-

1. It being a more globalized economy than India, China is more prone to the shocks in the global economy. Comparatively, India is not as big an export economy as China.

2. Its trade by value is far more than that of India.

Wiping off of forex reserves is not unique to China and is not an indication of a “inherent weakness in the Chinese economy due to years of data fudging”. Our forex reserves were wiped out in 1991 (due to the fiscal imprudence exercised in the 1980s). And thank god that happened or we would still be living in pre-reforms India: where the IMF was a boogeyman out to loot the country, and where PSUs were our biggest treasures.


As far as China keeping the value of its currency “artificially” low is concerned, that BS is meant for American consumption. It is called managed-float, and keeping currency value-low means exports out of China are cheaper, and imports into it, are costlier. Americans complaint that this threatens their own manufacturing sector. This is like the cat calling the kettle black. The Americans are the ones who keep the value of the US Dollar “artificially” high. They do this by enforcing the petrodollar and the USD as the reserve currency of the world. This creates an “artificial” demand for the USD in the world market, thereby driving the value of the $ up. For Americans, this means that imports are very cheap, and exports are costly. This is why the Americans have such a lavish lifestyle, and they have their president Nixon to thank for that. They are a domestic-demand driven economy. This is also how USA is able to sustain such high amounts of external debt in their economy.


Now, I did try to create a compact answer despite of the many economic concepts that are involved in such a broad-ranging discussion, so I have made a lot of simplifications. Reality is so complex that it eludes even the economists themselves. And I am not even an economist. Just a plain engineer.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

This number is based on the assumption that China will get stuck in a middle income trap and that per capita income in India will rise to the same level as China’s by 2050.

I do not know the assumption. leading consultency agencies have predicted this. I am quoting them.

But the key here is to create a level of infrastructure that is comparable to that of China, and at the same time, we need to prepare the average Indian person (who will populate the Indian workforce of 2050) to be roughly as productive

I do not compare with china at all. I do not want an economy where a tea is sold at 5 USD against 5 INR in India and claim that their GDP rose by 65 times compared to India. I want each and every family have their basic needs satisfied, their children get good education, and they get medicine whenever it require. With simple leaving and high thinking, we can make this nation great. We do not need to make ghost city in which semi educated people live and live an unhygienic and naive life. I want basic need of each citizen to be taken care of. Subsequent to that, all may live an enlighten life and do the work they are interested. I discard western economic development model. I advocate our vedic economic model where people's basic needs are satisfied and rest of wealth shall be of society like we show in Padmanabh swamy temple. Wealth shall be of god and who so ever need it will get from it. Why build a palace like house for individual and why not make temples where everybody can go and everybody get help and food.

But the key here is to create a level of infrastructure that is comparable to that of China, and at the same time, we need to prepare the average Indian person (who will populate the Indian workforce of 2050) to be roughly as productive as the average Chinese person of 2050. That means similar levels of education, nutrition, healthcare and similar job opportunities. Frankly speaking, I do not see India growing as fast as it needs to unless China moves the f**k up the value chain and vacates space for us to turn into an export-led economy. This can only happen if China manages the switch it is currently attempting (a switch from an export-led economy to a domestic-demand-led economy). If it succeeds, its GDP growth rate will definitely slow down, but it will still maintain an impressive growth rate. Most likely, the Indian government will have to prepare for a judicious mix of export-led and domestic-demand-driven growth. Why so? Because I feel that:-

People often make the mistake of underestimating the power of truth and straightforwardness. We happen to be a poor country struggling to get our 2 time meal few years ago. America used to give us substandard wheat. Brits used to mock us. Now Brits poor people gets their food in Gurudwars of UK. Our players used to go to play country matches to UK to get some money. Now their players come to play IPL and gets money in one season which they can not get by playing country match for 20 years. When our buys used to carry their parents to US, they worked in house of some other nationality and Indian diaspora is the richest diaspora in US and almost in all nation where they are. Things changes in such a way that you can not expect. Wait for just a decade and you will see a great change which you would never have expected.
Chinese old population will be a liability. We have persons like swamy Ramdev, Shri shri , Sadguru , modi etc who has global vision. Perhaps what I am able to foresee is you guys are unable to see or visualize. I foresee an India to whom every sad and afflicted person will look at with a hope of help. Every guy who is unable to afford costly surgery or medicine will look at India. Every nation victim of radicalization will look at India and her spiritual leader to help their masses to be de-radicalized and be happy. I foresee India emerging as Jagatdguru. And that is the India of my vision and I see it happening.

 

[I am otm shank]

Again, most of the Chinese carriers will be in the East and South China Seas. There might be a Chinese carrier doing piracy patrols like warships from dozens of nations in the IOR now.

Again, any Chinese ship in the Pacific or the Indian Ocean will focus on the US Navy. China has very little frontline forces even on the land border with India. Naval assets are even more precious so definitely not wasting them on India.

The Indian Ocean is already dominated by the US Navy and it is not critical to China's survival as the Pacific so obviously the few Chinese ships in the IOR will worry about the US not India.

most of ten carriers will be in south and east China Sea? seems like overkill or a quantity over quality strategy?

why build seven or eight carriers for just the Chinese sea?

 

[SexyChineseLady]

most of ten carriers will be in south and east China Sea? seems like overkill or a quantity over quality strategy?

why build seven or eight carriers for just the Chinese sea?

Because the Chinese Seas are full of powerful and formidable nations and peoples. The US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam are all great nations. Russia is a potential threat as well though strategically they are aligned with China at the moment.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The CdG has conducted 4450 combat sorties against Daesh in that time. That doesn't include it's workups and training catapults. You have Russia beat, nothing approaching France.

Tell that to the Pentagon. Perhaps they were counting trips by the Liaoning not the launchings. The Liaoning had go to sea three times in the past three months, including a long one from its homebase in North China to the South China Sea. It is preparing to leave on another trip even now. Suffice it to say that the Chinese carrier goes to sea far more than the carrier forces of most nations.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

All this talk about how China will collapse and how it cannot afford 10 carriers is just wishful thinking by very jealous people.

Haters have predicted China's economic collapse every year since 1989. And China has simply grown every year.

Saying China cannot support 10 carriers is stupid since China supports a far larger car market than the US. If the US can support 11 carriers with a much smaller car market then China can support 10 carriers with a much bigger car market. Everything comes down to money. And China has money to spare which is why it can build the world's biggest high speed rail network and at the same time fund the One Belt, One Road program. Ten carriers is peanuts compared to those initiatives.

China owes money to itself not other nations. In fact, other nations owes money to China. Because it owes money to itself, it doesn't have to pay off unless it is convenient. Further more, China can print money without inflation (much like the US.)

Where do you think China got the money for its "ghost" cities? Except for China and maybe the US or Japan, no country has enough money to build a ghost city. But those are cities are only "ghost" until people move in. That is why slums are rare in China. China is so flushed with money that it can build cities and infrastructure first and then wait for people.

In all other third world nations, people have to wait for cash-poor government to build infrastructure so they end up crowding in slums.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

In all other third world nations, people have to wait for cash-poor government to build infrastructure so they end up crowding in slums.

Percentage of Urban Population living in Slums;

India: 24%
China: 25.3%

Similar figures are there for road network and paved road percentage too. Though China is well in railways.

 

[I am otm shank]

Because the Chinese Seas are full of powerful and formidable nations and peoples. The US, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam are all great nations. Russia is a potential threat as well though strategically they are aligned with China at the moment.

The US is the only capable threat to chinese sovereignty. None of those asian countries you mentioned have aircrafts carriers or even nuclear/ssk subs. Russia is deeply aligned with China so they're not a threat more of an ally..

 

[Armand2REP]

Tell that to the Pentagon. Perhaps they were counting trips by the Liaoning not the launchings. The Liaoning had go to sea three times in the past three months, including a long one from its homebase in North China to the South China Sea. It is preparing to leave on another trip even now. Suffice it to say that the Chinese carrier goes to sea far more than the carrier forces of most nations.

The CdG logs more miles in one trip to the IOR.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The CdG logs more miles in one trip to the IOR.

List all the CdG's trips and send them to the Pentagon. Maybe that will fix their 2017 yearly report on China. lol

Will France be getting a second carrier?

 

[Mikesingh]

10 Carriers? The easiest way to sink these junk carriers is to put them in the water! Lol!

Or better still what the Chinkies can use them for.....skateboard surfing practice!

 

[Armand2REP]

List all the CdG's trips and send them to the Pentagon. Maybe that will fix their 2017 yearly report on China. lol

Will France be getting a second carrier?

I haven't seen the Pentagon say anything about it. Three combat patrols against Daesh and 4450 combat sorties is plenty more miles and catapults than a training carrier chugging a few miles in the South China Sea ever did.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

India has plans to build 5 to 6 aircraft carriers. We can take care of IOR and counter chinese influence.
China is not USA, it cannot project its power countering Japan, USA and then making India as its enemy.

Is this still the case? On another forum, they said the MOD just canceled their third carrier, the Vishal, because it would leave no money for anything else.

 

[Tiger.Hind]

@SexyChineseLady No sexy, India always pays for things in tranches so the project is still on||It will be revived in 5 years perhaps, after Vikrant is fully ready & equipped with Tejas Mk2.

||

 

[SexyChineseLady]

@SexyChineseLady No sexy, India always pays for things in tranches so the project is still on||It will be revived in 5 years perhaps, after Vikrant is fully ready & equipped with Tejas Mk2.

||

Thanks for the reply! That is interesting. So a delay instead of a cancellation.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

On another forum, they said the MOD just canceled their third carrier, the Vishal, because it would leave no money for anything else.

Which forum?

Thanks for the reply! That is interesting. So a delay instead of a cancellation.

It was scheduled since start. Construction on Vishal had not to start before induction of Vikrant.
We know that since it's launch.
Now, case is different that fanboys hype every issue and spread misinformation.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Is this still the case? On another forum, they said the MOD just canceled their third carrier, the Vishal, because it would leave no money for anything else.

The project is not cancelled , it is in design phase.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The project is not cancelled , it is in design phase.

Yes, it is being cut/delayed during design phase.


http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...-he-tried-to-unravel/articleshow/57710646.cms


Parrikar refused to move ahead on a high-cost plan of the navy to design a next-generation aircraft carrier with a potential budget of over Rs 10,000 crore. The simple logic of the minister was that a new aircraft carrier would have limited utility for India and the same resources would be used to address more urgent needs like new frigates and submarines.

 

[Adioz]

I do not know the assumption. leading consultency agencies have predicted this. I am quoting them.

I do not compare with china at all. I do not want an economy where a tea is sold at 5 USD against 5 INR in India and claim that their GDP rose by 65 times compared to India. I want each and every family have their basic needs satisfied, their children get good education, and they get medicine whenever it require. With simple leaving and high thinking, we can make this nation great. We do not need to make ghost city in which semi educated people live and live an unhygienic and naive life. I want basic need of each citizen to be taken care of. Subsequent to that, all may live an enlighten life and do the work they are interested. I discard western economic development model. I advocate our vedic economic model where people's basic needs are satisfied and rest of wealth shall be of society like we show in Padmanabh swamy temple. Wealth shall be of god and who so ever need it will get from it. Why build a palace like house for individual and why not make temples where everybody can go and everybody get help and food.


People often make the mistake of underestimating the power of truth and straightforwardness. We happen to be a poor country struggling to get our 2 time meal few years ago. America used to give us substandard wheat. Brits used to mock us. Now Brits poor people gets their food in Gurudwars of UK. Our players used to go to play country matches to UK to get some money. Now their players come to play IPL and gets money in one season which they can not get by playing country match for 20 years. When our buys used to carry their parents to US, they worked in house of some other nationality and Indian diaspora is the richest diaspora in US and almost in all nation where they are. Things changes in such a way that you can not expect. Wait for just a decade and you will see a great change which you would never have expected.
Chinese old population will be a liability. We have persons like swamy Ramdev, Shri shri , Sadguru , modi etc who has global vision. Perhaps what I am able to foresee is you guys are unable to see or visualize. I foresee an India to whom every sad and afflicted person will look at with a hope of help. Every guy who is unable to afford costly surgery or medicine will look at India. Every nation victim of radicalization will look at India and her spiritual leader to help their masses to be de-radicalized and be happy. I foresee India emerging as Jagatdguru. And that is the India of my vision and I see it happening.

Well, you quoted a projection that compared India to the world.............why else would we need to look at GDP?
Fullfill the needs of all people, needs and no greeds, etc is communist thought. Frankly speaking, I like some of those ideas. But they need to be balanced with the concept of private ownership (excess of consumerism is bad, but excess of anything is bad) and democratic control.
The Vedic economic model needs to be translated to match the realities and technological progress in today's world. Only we can do it. But raising the living standards of our countrymen takes precedence over all else. And so any experiment with our economic model needs to be minimised. Let us first achieve the "developed" status according to the prevailing school of thought in modern economic circles.
And yes we have progressed much beyond our colonial days, and will continue to rise. The idea of India is strong and is enshrined in our very constitution. The idea of India is unique.
But at the same time, I realise that their are other countries, cultures and civilisations in the world (like the Chinese) who have contributed much to Humanity. I am not particularly happy that most of the world is staring at a demographic crisis at the horizon with a shrinking workforce. But vis-a-vis India, I am happy.
Modi has a good vision, and so do many other people. The challenge is turning vision and potential into reality. Thankfully, the recent UP elections have shown how the people of India are finally willing to look past all else and see those visions of a shining India. It takes a great amount of sway over the people to convince them like this. I am a leftist and the fact that I am supporting a right-wing party should speak volumes of what sway Modi and his administration holds over us all.

 

[J20!]

CV17's island just got painted. Looks like it'll be launched soon, might even be ready for launch on China Navy Day 23rd April 2017

Start of painting the island.

Island painting complete:

She really has come a long way in two years.

November 2015: