China's first indigenous carrier CV17

[abingdonboy]

And they've been the most active carrier force outside the US even though all their missions are just training ones.

Really? I don't think so. France's carrier battle group is actively involved in combat operations.

And until a few months ago the Indian navy had 2 operational carriers.

 

[salute]

Obviously most of China's carriers will be in the East and South China Seas facing the US and Japan.

Chinese Carrier Groups might be in the IOR protecting China's shipping lanes just warships from dozens of countries.

In fact, US Carriers travel all over the IOR today so it makes no sense for India to single out a Chinese carrier.

Any Chinese Carrier in the IOR would worry mainly if not exclusively about the US Navy not India. The US Navy is just as dominant in the Indian Ocean as it is on China's coasts so the PLAN is trained to focus on the USN.

its not just navys aircraft carriers or warships chinese navy got to worry about but also air force aircrafts taking off from andaman and nicobar or even from indian coastal bases ,
those air force aircrafts gonna be sukhois , rafales and probably others like fgfa or even amca , they gonna be patrolling the ocean with aircrafts like poseidon p8 ,

is chinese navy properly equipped with life rafts and jackets or they like to get wet , lol ,
u r putting too much over confidence on just number of ships ,
even american navy could hold only so much of oceans .

 

[HariPrasad-1]

According to Sina news, China plans to build 10 or more aircraft carriers, the first batch will be 6 aircraft carriers, then at least four more nuclear powered ones.

According PLA major general Yin Zhuo, there are at least 4 major ship building corporations in China that can be used to build carriers. The two shipyards in Shanghai and Dalian alone are currently building 2 CVs, 2 LDHs and 8 DDGs at the same time, so capacity is there and it is already being used for the buildout of the carrier groups.

Yes, substandard carriers with junk 15 planes will be good for nothing and will not need more than 20 brahmos fired from 800 km range to sink them.

 

[Srinivas_K]

No doubt it will be a hard and long road but they actually started training on land a decade ago.

And they've been the most active carrier force outside the US even though all their missions are just training ones.

I doubt the pay load capacity of the su 33 fighters taking off from the aircraft carriers. They are heavy not suitable for carrier aviation.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

Again, most of the Chinese carriers will be in the East and South China Seas. There might be a Chinese carrier doing piracy patrols like warships from dozens of nations in the IOR now.

Again, any Chinese ship in the Pacific or the Indian Ocean will focus on the US Navy. China has very little frontline forces even on the land border with India. Naval assets are even more precious so definitely not wasting them on India.

The Indian Ocean is already dominated by the US Navy and it is not critical to China's survival as the Pacific so obviously the few Chinese ships in the IOR will worry about the US not India.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Indian Ocean is already dominated by the US Navy and it is not critical to China's survival as the Pacific so obviously the few Chinese ships in the IOR will worry about the US not India.

Not entire Indian Ocean, but a part of it. From Malakka Straight to Pacific lies American presence...

From Malakka Straight to Africa, you'll hardly see any American ships, in ME you'll find USN..

PRC/PLAN might not agree with you...

Ever head of string of pearls, which are to provide support for PLAN in the IOR...

I agree that PRC & PLAN are going to concentrate their force in SCS & ECS, but they neither neglect the rest of IOR nor IN.

 

[Razor]

Just a side note: This Dave Majumdar of NatInt is over-hyped and more of a copy-paste guy.

 

[Razor]

The Indian Ocean is already dominated by the US Navy and it is not critical to China's survival as the Pacific so obviously the few Chinese ships in the IOR will worry about the US not India.

You are kiddin' right?
Malacca is vital for chinese trade at least till, if ever, the Northern routes open up.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

You are kiddin' right?
Malacca is vital for chinese trade at least till, if ever, the Northern routes open up.

Yes, the trade route is vital for China as well as every other country in the Far East but there are just piracy patrols from China and the Far East. It is not of the same importance as the China Seas. There are no permanent assets asigned to the IOR.

 

[Armand2REP]

And they've been the most active carrier force outside the US even though all their missions are just training ones.

The French Charles de Gaulle has been more active than most US carriers, China doesn't come into the picture.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

China is a foolish country and making same mistake what US did. Maintaining 10 aircraft carrier is too costly. Shrinking chinese economy will find it difficult to maintain them. China has made enemies all around. China need to spend a lot to take and maintain the position it has took. China will need to spend a lot to show its strength against US in south china sea and against Japan. Foolish china thinks that it can make all their enemy and still survive. China is far away from being such a dominant nation and we shall soon see Aura of china fading. It will be a time when Vietnam will talk to china by having an eye to eye discussion. CHina is badly massed up in CPEC and in Srilanka. China made a strategic mistake to misread Modi. In US Trump has come. Equations have changed and china's Hegemonic design cost china a lot. I can foresee a fall of china gradually.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

The French Charles de Gaulle has been more active than most US carriers, China doesn't come into the picture.

Nope, the Pentagon's yearly report on China states that the China aircraft program is the most active in the world after the US. The Liaoning since 2014 has undertaken more sorties than any carrier in the world. Obviously it is China's training carrier that must seed the entire carrier program so it makes many more trips from its homebase to the East China Seas to train crew and pilots than a de Gaulle on a war footing or the US carriers on patrol.

The tempo of China carrier operations on the Liaoning is far greater than anything seen on any other ex-Soviet carrier. For example, the Kuznetsov carried only 8 fighters during the Syria trip. It could do only 18-20 knots and needed a tug in its battle group as precaution. The Liaoning was sighted with at least 13 J-15s just on the deck (with 5-8 more very likely in its hangar, there are 21 J-15s identified by serial numbers) and when it was rounding Taiwan with its BG in December, 2016, it was steaming at 30 knots.

 

[vinuzap]

its active for its failure news and to cut propaganda short japan is ahead here to :

http://cimsec.org/japans-izumo-class-helicopter-destroyer-aircraft-carrier-disguise/24130


he Land of the Rising Sun has been quietly strengthening its military capabilities and procuring advanced equipment amid the ongoing debate over whether to amend Article 9 of the country’s constitution. Though officially called the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Forces (JMSDF), the Japanese Navy boasts an impressive array of hardware and if the country’s ruling party has its way with the constitution, its capability will only get stronger.

To increase the potency of the JMSDF even further, the acquisition of aircraft carriers (CVs) would be a logical next step. Yet, as CVs can best be described as seagoing airbases with significant offensive capabilities, Japan’s pacifist constitution prohibits their use in its navy. Destroyers (DDs) on the other hand rely on speed and maneuverability and are easily employed in defensive roles, criteria deemed acceptable under the Japanese Constitution. Therefore, to accommodate this unique political limitation, the Japanese have designated one of their latest vessels as a “helicopter destroyer” (DDH) but with capabilities akin to those of an aircraft carrier.

American Nimitz class supercarrier besides Izumo and Hyuga class vessels of the JMSDF.
Enter the vessel in question: the JS Izumo (DDH-183),commissioned on March 25th, 2015. Officially classified as a $1.2 billion “helicopter destroyer”, this warship is the largest constructed by Japan since the Second World War, and at first glance bears a striking resemblance to a light aircraft carrier. With an impressive length of 248 meters and a beam of 38 meters, the vessel is larger than short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) carriers operating in the Spanish and Italian navies. Likewise, its fully-loaded displacement of 24,000 tonnes and 7.3 meter draft put the Izumo class in a category similar to that of the Invincible class carriers commissioned by the Royal Navy. Altogether, the scale of these vessels represents a major advance in Japan’s maritime defense capabilities, significantly increasing the country’s ability to project force.

Equipped with the latest in electronic warfare, fire control, and radar systems, the Izumo class has been designed with the battlefield of the 21st century in mind. According to Janes Defense, the Izumo class will carry up to 14 helicopters- primarily Japanese-built MCH-101s and SH-60Ks equipped for anti-submarine warfare or search-and-rescue operations. For closer encounters, the Izumois equipped with the Phalanx and SeaRam close-in weapons systems (CIWS), capable of defeating most forms of incoming ordnance.

Furthermore, the Izumo class boasts the exceptional capability of supporting amphibious assault operations as the ships have the capacity to embark up to 400 marines and approximately 50 light vehicles. However, unlike the American Wasp-class, the Izumo is not equipped with a well deck and relies on its compliment of helicopters to provide embarked marines with the ability to rapidly deploy in amphibious operations.

Izumo with helicopters ready on the flight deck.
The Izumo will be supplemented by the JS Kaga (DDH-184),launched in late-August 2015 and expected to be commissioned sometime in 2017. Named after the Japanese province, the second ship of the Izumo class has the dubious honor of sharing the same designation as the infamous IJN Kaga- an aircraft carrier that took part in the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941 and served with the Imperial Japanese Navy until scuttled at the Battle of Midway in 1942. Unsurprisingly, the choice in name has raised eyebrows given the current Kaga’s aircraft carrier-like appearance.

Though the Izumo and her sister ship Kaga lack catapults or a “ski-jump” to assist conventional fixed-wing aircraft (such as the F/A-18) during take-off and arrestor cables for their recovery, the potential for operating STOVL aircraft from these vessels is high. For instance, in addition to greater size, major alterations were made to the design of the flight deck from Japan’s previous Hyugaclass of helicopter destroyers. The new Izumos remove obstacles from the flight deck and rearrange equipment that would prevent the launch and recovery of fixed-wing aircraft. The CIWS system mounted on the foredeck of the Hyuga class has been moved well to the side, opening up the much needed space necessary for fixed-wing operations. Moreover, the aft vertical launch silo has also been removed, allowing for greater ease of aircraft recovery. By and large, changes such as these are critical for allowing the vessel to operate fixed-wing aircraft.

Should Japanese leaders decide to include a compliment of fixed-wing aircraft on the Izumo class, STOVL or vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) aircraft would be necessary as the ship’s basic design lacks the size of catapult assisted take-off barrier arrested recovery (CATOBAR) carriers. Though currently slated to be delivered to the country’s air force, domestic production of the Lockheed-Martin F-35A JSF is already underway in Nagoya. It is unclear, however, whether Japan will produce or purchase the F-35B- the model of the JSF with the STOVL capability necessary for the aircraft to operate from any Izumo class vessel.

A F-35B practices vertical take off and landing.
To accommodate the JSF, a few key modifications to the class would be necessary. Thermion coating, like that used on the Wasp class, would need to be applied to protect it from the extreme heat created by the F-35’s exhaust during vertical landing. Second, a ski-jump similar to those employed on most European carriers would likely be needed to assist the JSF during take-off, though this is not an absolute necessity aspreliminary testing on the Wasp class has demonstrated. Moreover, since Japan has ordered the V-22 Osprey, its addition to the ship’s complement is likely. Should a complement of F-35’s and V-22’s be added to the Izumo and Kaga, Japan would boast an increased maritime strike capability, signaling Japan’s increasing military power to its rivals.

Overall, the capabilities of the new Izumo class “helicopter destroyers” represent a step up for the JMSDF. Though in their current configuration the vessels are not capable of fielding conventional fixed-wing aircraft, with minor adjustments and a compliment of STOVL aircraft, the Izumo class would boast similar capabilities to light aircraft carriers currently serving around the world.

Given this potential, simply calling these ships “helicopter destroyers” could be construed as misleading, or even deceptive. Therefore, we can surmise that the classification is largely for political purposes, as the inherently offensive capability of aircraft carriers would run counter to the values espoused in Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution. Whether the JMSDF decides to further develop the capability of these ships has yet to be seen; however, the potential is there and serves as a warning to China and the DPRK that Japan is indeed a maritime power to be reckoned with.

 

[SexyChineseLady]

China is a foolish country and making same mistake what US did. Maintaining 10 aircraft carrier is too costly. Shrinking chinese economy will find it difficult to maintain them. China has made enemies all around. China need to spend a lot to take and maintain the position it has took. China will need to spend a lot to show its strength against US in south china sea and against Japan. Foolish china thinks that it can make all their enemy and still survive. China is far away from being such a dominant nation and we shall soon see Aura of china fading. It will be a time when Vietnam will talk to china by having an eye to eye discussion. CHina is badly massed up in CPEC and in Srilanka. China made a strategic mistake to misread Modi. In US Trump has come. Equations have changed and china's Hegemonic design cost china a lot. I can foresee a fall of china gradually.

Westerners (where Indians get all their China information) had been predicting China's economic collapse since 1989. But year after year, the Chinese economy grows so most people who actually knows the chinese economy do not see any great difference in the coming years. Growth will be a little slower because it is impossible for a large economy (by many measurements, it is already the largest economy in the world) to grow as fast as a small economy but a 6.5% growth means China's adds the equivalent of a G-20 country each year to its economy every year. That new G-20 country in China every year pcan definitely support a new carrier (along with many other things.)

China would not be able to undertake the OBOR (of which CPEC is only a small part) if there were any wrong with its economy.

At any rate, the US has 11 carriers but China which has a bigger market for cars, steel, cement, ships and practically every other thing in the world cannot afford the same in carriers? That is silly. Of course, China could afford it.

As far as hegemony, the Chinese military has not fought a war in 40 years. It is the biggest or second biggest trade partner for every country on its border. China maintains very light arm forces on most borders (including the one with India.) So there is nothing that stresses China other than the US.

 

[vinuzap]

we get the information because it is not censored and not create zombies , question to be asked apart from communist propaganda you have anything which is not censored

economy grew only aftter liberalisatiion in 78 and west promoted it being cheap manufacturing centre and its only in last 3-4 years china is able to show some might after years of sucking up to west


http://www.atimes.com/article/global-times-warns-military-clash-u-s-blockades-south-china-sea/

Global Times warns of ‘military clash’ if US blockades South China Sea
Blocking China's access to islands in the South China Sea would mean the US and China should prepare for military conflict, the state-run newspaper said on Friday.
If the US blocks China’s access to islands in the South China Sea then “the two sides had better prepare for a military clash,” a China state-run newspaper said in an editorial on Friday, in reference to comments by U.S. Secretary of State nominee Rex Tillerson on Wednesday.

During his confirmation hearing before the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Tillerson said that China’s occupation and militarization of the islands was akin to “Russia taking Crimea from Ukraine.”

Tillerson added that Beijing’s island building in the area was “illegal” and that China’s access to the islands “is not going to be allowed.” He didn’t give further details.

THE DAILYBrief

Must-reads from across Asia - directly to your inbox
China’s English-language Global Times called the comments “astonishing” and a threat of war. He was taking to the bully pulpit because he is the most controversial candidate among President-elect Donald Trump‘s nominees and wants to win favor among Senators by attacking China, the paper said.

The newspaper was also conciliatory in noting that Tillerson, a former chief executive of Exxon Mobil Corp, said Chinese and American economic interests are deeply intertwined, but made clear that any attempt to blockade the islands would lead to “a large-scale war in the South China Sea.”

The Global Times, which is published by the ruling Communist Party’s newspaper, is well known for its nationalist editorials.

“Tillerson had better bone up on nuclear power strategies if he wants to force a big nuclear power to withdraw from its own territories,” the paper said.

China has laid claim to most of the South China Sea, which initial surveys show may have massive deposits of oil and natural gas, and is home to sea lanes through which about $5 trillion in trade passes every year. Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan and Vietnam also have made claims to islands and reefs in the region.

The US has previously asked China to respect the findings of an arbitration court in The Hague last year that rejected China’s territorial claims in the South China Sea in favor of the Philippines.

Separately, Tillerson in the hearings came out in support of Japan in a dispute with China in the East China Sea over ownership of islands known as Senkaku in Japanese and Daioyu in Chinese.

An air defense identification zone over the Senkaku/Daioyu islands that Beijing established in 2013 was “illegal,” Tillerson said. In response to a question as to what the US would do if China attempted to use force to take over the Japan-administered islands, Tillerson said the US is committed to the defense of Japan.

The Global Times made no comment on this island dispute.

 

[vinuzap]

another propaganda:

china and vietnam never clashed or have no tension ,

china and india never clashed or have no tension ,

china and japan never clashed or have no tension ,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-07/sri-lankans-protest-china-port-deal/8168110

what is 1 lakh marine planning in pakistan

https://qz.com/667853/china-and-tai...e-fate-of-45-accused-of-cyber-crime-in-kenya/


list goes on , common factor being

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Westerners (where Indians get all their China information) had been predicting China's economic collapse since 1989. But year after year, the Chinese economy grows so most people who actually knows the chinese economy do not see any great difference in the coming years.

DO you want to deny that China manipulated GDP DATA?
Do you deny that Chinese GDP growth inspite of manipulation is lowest in last two decades?
Do you deny that a huge chunk of foreign currency wiped out from chinese exchequer some time ago?
Do you want to deny that china borrow 6USD to add 1 usd to its GDP?
Do you want to deny that china keeps its currency artificially low to stay relevant?

Answer this than we can take the discussion forward.

 

[Armand2REP]

Nope, the Pentagon's yearly report on China states that the China aircraft program is the most active in the world after the US. The Liaoning since 2014 has undertaken more sorties than any carrier in the world. Obviously it is China's training carrier that must seed the entire carrier program so it makes many more trips from its homebase to the East China Seas to train crew and pilots than a de Gaulle on a war footing or the US carriers on patrol.

The tempo of China carrier operations on the Liaoning is far greater than anything seen on any other ex-Soviet carrier. For example, the Kuznetsov carried only 8 fighters during the Syria trip. It could do only 18-20 knots and needed a tug in its battle group as precaution. The Liaoning was sighted with at least 13 J-15s just on the deck (with 5-8 more very likely in its hangar, there are 21 J-15s identified by serial numbers) and when it was rounding Taiwan with its BG in December, 2016, it was steaming at 30 knots.

The CdG has conducted 4450 combat sorties against Daesh in that time. That doesn't include it's workups and training catapults. You have Russia beat, nothing approaching France.

 

[Adioz]

DO you want to deny that China manipulated GDP DATA?
Do you deny that Chinese GDP growth inspite of manipulation is lowest in last two decades?
Do you deny that a huge chunk of foreign currency wiped out from chinese exchequer some time ago?
Do you want to deny that china borrow 6USD to add 1 usd to its GDP?
Do you want to deny that china keeps its currency artificially low to stay relevant?

Answer this than we can take the discussion forward.

One counter-question to your questionnaire: Do you have any understanding at all about economics, let alone world economies?
All these questions you are posting have been taken from news headlines.

Rest assured, Chinese have a VERY robust economy and a VERY prudent economic leadership. They have been global leaders and trendsetters, they have been mythbusters for economists since 1949.

The way the Chinese are growing, they might be creating a shadow on the wall now, and some media reinforce that shadow, whereas others call out the bluff. Its all done to feed a Western narrative that oscillates from "Chinese are growing strong very fast and they are on our tails and if we don't hedge, they will become stronger than us in all measures possible" to "China is a paper tiger". You can support either argument by thousands of articles online that push either of the above two narratives. The real picture is pretty much a middle ground between the two extremes in narratives you see online about China: Its very strong, but it definitely is not supplanting western hegemony and making The West a relic of the past times anytime soon. Its just another major pole emerging in the world, which has already shifted from the dipolar (during the cold war) to a unipolar (during the 1990s) to the current world of multiple poles (somewhat similar to the ancient world).

Rest assured, when you talk about "China manipulating GDP data, Chinese GDP growth inspite of manipulation is lowest in last two decades, a huge chunk of foreign currency wiped out from chinese exchequer some time ago, china borrow 6USD to add 1 usd to its GDP, china keeps its currency artificially low to stay relevant"; when you talk like this, you cannot really expect anyone to take you seriously because you are merely quoting news headlines as questions, without a deeper understanding to tell fact and fiction apart. You have no idea what you are talking about.


@SexyChineseLady , about the carriers, been expecting the news for quite some time now. IMHO, all 6 carriers are not hitting the water anytime before 2035. By then, if we do not encounter rough weather, expect India to field a 3 carrier fleet, with two more under construction. But the real thing will come after 2035, when India will most probably be taking position on the springboard to expand its destroyer and submarine numbers drastically. The SSN programme will be planning a second generation of Indian SSNs. Not sure about the SSBN front though.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

One counter-question to your questionnaire: Do you have any understanding at all about economics, let alone world economies?
All these questions you are posting have been taken from news headlines.

Rest assured, Chinese have a VERY robust economy and a VERY prudent economic leadership. They have been global leaders and trendsetters, they have been mythbusters for economists since 1949.

The way the Chinese are growing, they might be creating a shadow on the wall now, and some media reinforce that shadow, whereas others call out the bluff. Its all done to feed a Western narrative that oscillates from "Chinese are growing strong very fast and they are on our tails and if we don't hedge, they will become stronger than us in all measures possible" to "China is a paper tiger". You can support either argument by thousands of articles online that push either of the above two narratives. The real picture is pretty much a middle ground between the two extremes in narratives you see online about China: Its very strong, but it definitely is not supplanting western hegemony and making The West a relic of the past times anytime soon. Its just another major pole emerging in the world, which has already shifted from the dipolar (during the cold war) to a unipolar (during the 1990s) to the current world of multiple poles (somewhat similar to the ancient world).

Rest assured, when you talk about "China manipulating GDP data, Chinese GDP growth inspite of manipulation is lowest in last two decades, a huge chunk of foreign currency wiped out from chinese exchequer some time ago, china borrow 6USD to add 1 usd to its GDP, china keeps its currency artificially low to stay relevant"; when you talk like this, you cannot really expect anyone to take you seriously because you are merely quoting news headlines as questions, without a deeper understanding to tell fact and fiction apart. You have no idea what you are talking about.


@SexyChineseLady , about the carriers, been expecting the news for quite some time now. IMHO, all 6 carriers are not hitting the water anytime before 2035. By then, if we do not encounter rough weather, expect India to field a 3 carrier fleet, with two more under construction. But the real thing will come after 2035, when India will most probably be taking position on the springboard to expand its destroyer and submarine numbers drastically. The SSN programme will be planning a second generation of Indian SSNs. Not sure about the SSBN front though.

If you think that that you are an expert than show your expertise by your argument and facts. I am not an economist having the deep study of world economics and so as the all the members of the forum.

It is chinese media (No need to say that state run) who has said that India shall be new factory of the world. It is not me who say that India shall be No 1 economy between 2044 to 2050. It is said by goldman sach and many such big agency. What I said is quoted by big economist and fact based Data. Can you deny that chinese stock market loose trillions of dollars and china loose foreign exchange in few days which is more than Indian foreign exchange. Theses are facts and figures and one need not be an economist to know all that.

If you want any argument than come with pointed argument and counter me. There is no point in BS such as you do not know and you do not have knowledge.